Wheel Nut:
The UK is a small island, the roads are overcrowded, it takes between 2 and 8 hours to get a 45’ trailer tipped in an RDC and the roads are not suitable for LHV or even double deckers in my opinion. The idea is a good one, like the DD, but it is an unworkable one.
I admire Carryfasts one-man quest to get someone to agree with his point of view of double drive, obsolete two stroke engines and running at 75mph even though the USA had 55mph speed limits in many states. I have had the experience of running into Europe over the last 30 years and can tell him that if these things are allowed, the prices in the shops will not come down, the queues on the roads will increase as one turns it over through either inexperience or over exuberance. Apart from that, LKW Walter will not pay you any more to go to Italy, they will just expect everyone else to run for less.
If you want to use an LHV for the fun of driving one, then send ■■■■ Denby a cheque for £200. Dont expect to gain sympathy from established hauliers and drivers who saw what the relaxed rules of the EU and higher weights did to the industry, especially when you mention using a BOGOF trailer as a loss leader.
Don’t be a fool when you say that the East Europeans cannot buy Heavy Haulage tractors, they can buy anything we can buy, except their labour costs and fuel costs are cheaper.
The States did have a 55 mph speed limit but it was’nt there before 1972.However it was universally ignored at least until the 1980’s and then it was gradually raised again.The ironic thing is that trucks were travelling a lot faster over there with that limit in place and with those ‘obsolete’ two stroke motors than recent years with the higher but (much) more strictly enforced limits with tougher penalties.And I’m still waiting for someone who could come up with some figures showing which ‘modern’,not obsolete,engines could outperform those obsolete two strokes when it comes to specific outputs of torque which is the engineering yardstick.But as for the East Europeans being able to buy anything which we can buy and their labour and fuel costs being cheaper.As far as I know the average run from UK to Italy etc would need the tanks to be filled up somewhere where we could also also fill up.And the cost of diesel is not much different throughout Europe these days.There’s no way that it could be as economically viable for the big East European fleets to run their own roadtrains using heavy haulage type tractor units as a few owner driver subbies could by just using a cheaply bought one each to pull multiple trailers on a subby traction basis.Especially when as I’ve said there’s probably some subbies who think like me that it’s better to pull two trailers for the same wage that I’d be happy with to pull one and where that East European outfit has got loads of drivers to pay at any wage and loads of it’s own trailers to maintain all I’ve got to bother about is finding an old cheap heavy haulage 6x4 unit to buy and run of which there’s a few around.But unfortunately it probably won’t have a DD two stroke in it
We see your masterplan now, all along you have wanted to run long distances and then have a few days off. Well it seems you would get your wish this way, you are already allowed to run two trailers in France, so you could spend a couple of days running to Modane or Cluses with your stinking smoking old diesel while you let an Italian subby take your trailer with his new Euro 5 Scania 4x2 through the tunnels because Euro 1 engines are banned.
Maybe you need to rethink your European takeover plans or just retire gracefully like me
One thing I can guarantee is that ■■■■ Denby will become the most hated man in transport if his LHVs are allowed, pretty soon everyone will need to run them to remain competitive (in that particular sector anyway) then the fuel/oil companies will start doing it, then other segments will take it up too, all of a sudden hundreds of businesses will close down because they cant join the big truck club, that means hundreds of drivers will be out on their ear, pretty soon the rates will drop & we’ll be in the same boat as now, only with less lorries & less drivers.
The B train or ‘super B’ is popular in Canada, but it’s only popular in the numbers of the on the road, it’s not very popular with the hauliers, in the bulk segment the rate per ton has dropped to lower than it was pre B train as the efficiency has been passed on to the customer.
What you have to remember is that there will always be a Carryfast out there who is prepared to do the job as a loss leader, once the rate goes down it hardly ever goes back up again. Ask your boss if he’s getting a better rate per mile for ■■■■■■■ 44tons around than he got for 32tons, I’ll bet not many do.
Carryfast, I know we have a bit of banter & sometimes we are in agreement, but on this issue & that of running a business without making profits I think you should be shot…
newmercman:
One thing I can guarantee is that ■■■■ Denby will become the most hated man in transport if his LHVs are allowed, pretty soon everyone will need to run them to remain competitive (in that particular sector anyway) then the fuel/oil companies will start doing it, then other segments will take it up too, all of a sudden hundreds of businesses will close down because they cant join the big truck club, that means hundreds of drivers will be out on their ear, pretty soon the rates will drop & we’ll be in the same boat as now, only with less lorries & less drivers.
The B train or ‘super B’ is popular in Canada, but it’s only popular in the numbers of the on the road, it’s not very popular with the hauliers, in the bulk segment the rate per ton has dropped to lower than it was pre B train as the efficiency has been passed on to the customer.
What you have to remember is that there will always be a Carryfast out there who is prepared to do the job as a loss leader, once the rate goes down it hardly ever goes back up again. Ask your boss if he’s getting a better rate per mile for ■■■■■■■ 44tons around than he got for 32tons, I’ll bet not many do.
Carryfast, I know we have a bit of banter & sometimes we are in agreement, but on this issue & that of running a business without making profits I think you should be shot…
Repeatedly
These are my feelings abouthe LHV’s, they’ll do nothing to help the driver or many haulage companies. Just help the big players in this industry again. I’m pleased you’ve sighted the same problems in Canada.
Wheel Nut:
The UK is a small island, the roads are overcrowded, it takes between 2 and 8 hours to get a 45’ trailer tipped in an RDC and the roads are not suitable for LHV or even double deckers in my opinion. The idea is a good one, like the DD, but it is an unworkable one.
I admire Carryfasts one-man quest to get someone to agree with his point of view of double drive, obsolete two stroke engines and running at 75mph even though the USA had 55mph speed limits in many states. I have had the experience of running into Europe over the last 30 years and can tell him that if these things are allowed, the prices in the shops will not come down, the queues on the roads will increase as one turns it over through either inexperience or over exuberance. Apart from that, LKW Walter will not pay you any more to go to Italy, they will just expect everyone else to run for less.
If you want to use an LHV for the fun of driving one, then send ■■■■ Denby a cheque for £200. Dont expect to gain sympathy from established hauliers and drivers who saw what the relaxed rules of the EU and higher weights did to the industry, especially when you mention using a BOGOF trailer as a loss leader.
Don’t be a fool when you say that the East Europeans cannot buy Heavy Haulage tractors, they can buy anything we can buy, except their labour costs and fuel costs are cheaper.
The States did have a 55 mph speed limit but it was’nt there before 1972.However it was universally ignored at least until the 1980’s and then it was gradually raised again.The ironic thing is that trucks were travelling a lot faster over there with that limit in place and with those ‘obsolete’ two stroke motors than recent years with the higher but (much) more strictly enforced limits with tougher penalties.And I’m still waiting for someone who could come up with some figures showing which ‘modern’,not obsolete,engines could outperform those obsolete two strokes when it comes to specific outputs of torque which is the engineering yardstick.But as for the East Europeans being able to buy anything which we can buy and their labour and fuel costs being cheaper.As far as I know the average run from UK to Italy etc would need the tanks to be filled up somewhere where we could also also fill up.And the cost of diesel is not much different throughout Europe these days.There’s no way that it could be as economically viable for the big East European fleets to run their own roadtrains using heavy haulage type tractor units as a few owner driver subbies could by just using a cheaply bought one each to pull multiple trailers on a subby traction basis.Especially when as I’ve said there’s probably some subbies who think like me that it’s better to pull two trailers for the same wage that I’d be happy with to pull one and where that East European outfit has got loads of drivers to pay at any wage and loads of it’s own trailers to maintain all I’ve got to bother about is finding an old cheap heavy haulage 6x4 unit to buy and run of which there’s a few around.But unfortunately it probably won’t have a DD two stroke in it
We see your masterplan now, all along you have wanted to run long distances and then have a few days off. Well it seems you would get your wish this way, you are already allowed to run two trailers in France, so you could spend a couple of days running to Modane or Cluses with your stinking smoking old diesel while you let an Italian subby take your trailer with his new Euro 5 Scania 4x2 through the tunnels because Euro 1 engines are banned.
Maybe you need to rethink your European takeover plans or just retire gracefully like me
Blimey I never thought of that.So I could use an old FTF to run down to the France-Italy tunnels and then give my two trailers to two Italian subbies to run on with.But then it’s no blue skies or Italian girls for me.I think I’d rather just go the long way round along the Cote d’Azure and then I get even more sun and views .
newmercman:
One thing I can guarantee is that ■■■■ Denby will become the most hated man in transport if his LHVs are allowed, pretty soon everyone will need to run them to remain competitive (in that particular sector anyway) then the fuel/oil companies will start doing it, then other segments will take it up too, all of a sudden hundreds of businesses will close down because they cant join the big truck club, that means hundreds of drivers will be out on their ear, pretty soon the rates will drop & we’ll be in the same boat as now, only with less lorries & less drivers.
The B train or ‘super B’ is popular in Canada, but it’s only popular in the numbers of the on the road, it’s not very popular with the hauliers, in the bulk segment the rate per ton has dropped to lower than it was pre B train as the efficiency has been passed on to the customer.
What you have to remember is that there will always be a Carryfast out there who is prepared to do the job as a loss leader, once the rate goes down it hardly ever goes back up again. Ask your boss if he’s getting a better rate per mile for ■■■■■■■ 44tons around than he got for 32tons, I’ll bet not many do.
Carryfast, I know we have a bit of banter & sometimes we are in agreement, but on this issue & that of running a business without making profits I think you should be shot…
Repeatedly
But unlike in Canada and the US the British Continental fleet is already dead in the water because the Romanians and the Poles etc have taken all of the work because they’ve already got the rate as low as it can go.We can’t make big profits doing it while they’re in the game.It’s survival so we stay at home or just run to the supermarkets or do what I’m trying to do and that’s beat the bxxxxxxs at their own game and a decent doubles outfit would allow me to have more of a chance of doing it.It’s a totally different environment in which I’m not trying to undercut a British road transport operation,because it’s already gone,but an East European one or even better the rail freight industry if I could go for their work as well.
Mike-C:
Is it just me who thinks ■■■■ Denby looks like Quentin Crisp?
What can you expect from someone who’s idea of a roadtrain is a doubles outfit which can’t be loaded at more than the British weight limit.?.The Ozzies would probably say something like that if they saw it on the Stuart Highway or if he stopped at one of their cafes with it.
I don’t know the man personally, but he seems a little bit of a nutcase, ok, he runs & has for many years, a successful company, but he has some rather odd ways, just look at the size of the trailer numbers on the front of his trailers, they fill up the whole headboard, now that’s the kind of thing you would do in temper after a couple of drivers got the wrong trailer, it’s kind of like ‘this is trailer 509 you kin idiot’ to me. He also used to, maybe still does, remove the manufacturers badges from any lorry he buys, in a magazine article years ago he cited the reason as, it was now a Denby lorry not a Volvo/Daf/Scania, he asks the manufacturer if they’re willing to pay for advertising on his lorries, if not, off comes the badge.
IMHO I think the whole LHV issue, as far as DD is concerned is just to get up VOSA/The Police/Governments noses, take a look at the reasons why these vehicles are in use in other places, in Canada the Super B is used primarily to haul lumber, grain, oil & ore/minerals, all bulk commodities, the rail system is uneconomical for the shorter journeys these vehicles undertake, but there are still a lot of movements needed, for instance a 5000 acre grain farm is just a big garden to the Canadians, there are some seriously big farms out there, Canada has had a labour supply problem in recent years (that’s why there are thousands of immigrant drivers, not just the Brits & Europeans, there are loads of Indians there too) the country is pretty much a vast open space, that’s why the Super B makes sense. Australia, doesn’t have a rail network to the far off places that the Roadtrains go to, it also has vast open spaces, massive farms, large quantities of minerals & a labour shortage, in both of these places it makes economic sense, Britain & Europe by contrast, don’t have any of those, so what exactly is the point?
beattun:
why not run 19 metre b-doubles, better to get around than a 45 single
You might as well use an ordinary 18 metre wagon and drag in that case.Why not let us run something like this but with one less trailer and a euro type cab over unit?.
Harry Monk:
But why? What would be the advantage to us? All it would do is push wgaes downwards.
If we took that argument to it’s logical conclusion we would have no drivers driving anything except a four wheeler rigid.We certainly would’nt have gone to 8 wheeler rigids then 8 wheelers pulling drawbar trailers followed by 32 ,38,40,44 tonne artics and drawbars.There’s no way to be competitive against the East Europeans on long haul European haulage if things stay as they are.It’s not a case of pushing wages downwards it’s a case of working or staying at home and earning nothing while the Poles and Romanians etc do all the work while British drivers sit on the dole.
Harry Monk:
But why? What would be the advantage to us? All it would do is push wgaes downwards.
If we took that argument to it’s logical conclusion we would have no drivers driving anything except a four wheeler rigid.We certainly would’nt have gone to 8 wheeler rigids then 8 wheelers pulling drawbar trailers followed by 32 ,38,40,44 tonne artics and drawbars.There’s no way to be competitive against the East Europeans on long haul European haulage if things stay as they are.It’s not a case of pushing wages downwards it’s a case of working or staying at home and earning nothing while the Poles and Romanians etc do all the work while British drivers sit on the dole.
Actually Carryfast, you are very wrong in this, especially that you haven’t had the experience of Europe like HM and a lot more, look on the Astran threads, apart from Rijnart from Klundert who did run double bottoms in the USSR, most of the regular runners used tag axles or 4x2’s with whatever trucks they could get hold of. The odd driver used 6x4 if they were for sale in a builders clearout. Friderichi used double drive Fodens.
Every one of them ran the Moyen Orient or Eastern Bloc to make money, not as a loss leader, some managed it, many others didn’t.
As you have stated numerous times, you could not get a start in international haulage, well from your previous posts about doing it for love, not money, then maybe your approach was flawed. The haulier who has put his marriage, house and 2.2 children on the line would not appreciate some young sprog turning up telling him the F12 or DAF DKS would be better off if it was some ■■■■ Yankee doodle.
I wonder if you are suited to UK or European transport as everything is so wrong, did you get many long term job offers in Canada and the USA?
Harry Monk:
But why? What would be the advantage to us? All it would do is push wgaes downwards.
If we took that argument to it’s logical conclusion we would have no drivers driving anything except a four wheeler rigid.We certainly would’nt have gone to 8 wheeler rigids then 8 wheelers pulling drawbar trailers followed by 32 ,38,40,44 tonne artics and drawbars.There’s no way to be competitive against the East Europeans on long haul European haulage if things stay as they are.It’s not a case of pushing wages downwards it’s a case of working or staying at home and earning nothing while the Poles and Romanians etc do all the work while British drivers sit on the dole.
Actually Carryfast, you are very wrong in this, especially that you haven’t had the experience of Europe like HM and a lot more, look on the Astran threads, apart from Rijnart from Klundert who did run double bottoms in the USSR, most of the regular runners used tag axles or 4x2’s with whatever trucks they could get hold of. The odd driver used 6x4 if they were for sale in a builders clearout. Friderichi used double drive Fodens.
Every one of them ran the Moyen Orient or Eastern Bloc to make money, not as a loss leader, some managed it, many others didn’t.
As you have stated numerous times, you could not get a start in international haulage, well from your previous posts about doing it for love, not money, then maybe your approach was flawed. The haulier who has put his marriage, house and 2.2 children on the line would not appreciate some young sprog turning up telling him the F12 or DAF DKS would be better off if it was some ■■■■ Yankee doodle.
I wonder if you are suited to UK or European transport as everything is so wrong, did you get many long term job offers in Canada and the USA?
Malc.
It’s difficult to understand the connections with any of that to just putting another trailer on the back of another in which they are both full loads going long haul to the same type of destination in Europe and in which it would just be a traction operation from my point of view for instance.There is’nt anyone out there,including me,who would seriously not be doing the job to make a living at it.But we’re not in the same trading environment now as we were years ago and it’s not a job where there’s big money to be earnt anymore although from the British drivers’ point of view there’s always been more work for the continental operators and drivers doing that type of work than for us.But now it’s a case of do the job at East European rates or stay at home.I was actually driving a DAF 2800 on UK work and I would’nt have minded using one on Continental at all.But there’s plenty of owner drivers who were running over there from here with big power Euro type or Yank trucks with no problems during those years and before and from an owner driver’s point of view they usually had plenty going for them in regards to power and in practicality.That’s why most British wagons were using yank type componentry anyway.But as usual too many Brit operators underspecced those wagons which is why it’s the Euro high powered stuff which eventually took the Brit manufacturers out when operators here did eventually realise that 400+ horse motors are’nt overspecced.But no there’s no Brit drivers in the years when I was on UK work who could just emigrate to Canada or the US as their work permit system did’nt cover truck driving then.But what would be the issue about a Brit subby using a high powered double drive unit like a Euro spec yank or whatever pulling two trailers on Euro work which at present are going on two East European wagons instead?.But the only way to deal with any disagreement between the likes of a driver with my ideas and those of many Brit employers with theirs is for that employed driver to work as an owner driver instead and I 'd learnt that within a very few years of starting out and which is why plenty of owner drivers were running big spec wagons including ones like Kenworths on continental work while employed drivers like me spent a career on lesser wagons running over here.
Carryfast:
.But what would be the issue about a Brit subby using a high powered double drive unit like a Euro spec yank or whatever pulling two trailers on Euro work which at present are going on two East European wagons instead?
But why would a British subby be doing it if an eastern European could do the same. and tow two trailers?
Personaly I dont see the point in Double Bs your !st trailer has about 30ft load space becuase of the fifthwheel coupling for the second trailer so in all approx 75ft load space surely a bit longer wagon & drag would do the same job except you wouldn`t have the versatlity of being able to use different units.
Carryfast:
.But what would be the issue about a Brit subby using a high powered double drive unit like a Euro spec yank or whatever pulling two trailers on Euro work which at present are going on two East European wagons instead?
But why would a British subby be doing it if an eastern European could do the same. and tow two trailers?
Because experience tells me that the type of high power high spec wagon most suited to that type of operation is an owner driver beast not a 400 horse Polish fleet wagon and there are’nt many Poles or Romanian drivers who’ve got enough start up capital in the bank to start up on their own doing traction work hauling two trailers at around 80 tonnes gross and those East European outfits probably would’nt have the type of investment capital with the margins which they’ve been running at to just switch their fleets over to such a specialist type of unit.Even if they could would it be worth their while to bother considering that there’s idiots like me out here who are happy to do the job for the same rate as them or less ?. So my plan would be roadtrains only allowed to be used in the UK by permit for long distance cross border euro continental work not for UK domestic use or cabotage in any EU state.
greek:
Personaly I dont see the point in Double Bs your !st trailer has about 30ft load space becuase of the fifthwheel coupling for the second trailer so in all approx 75ft load space surely a bit longer wagon & drag would do the same job except you wouldn`t have the versatlity of being able to use different units.
A B double is’nt the same thing as a proper roadtrain where you’ve got two full sized trailers linked by a drawbar.That’s the Stan Robinson idea.Or there’s the Scandinavian type drawbars.B doubles are a red herring and a blind alley.
