I had an idea you would disagree Geoffrey 
I used to be very right wing in my political views, but now I’m more non political, I don’t value the contribution of any political party as they all work for the same banks and corporations anyway, so it doesn’t matter who gets in, they’re going to ■■■■ us over anyway 
I’m not sure that we are low paid, to be honest. My other half has a good degree and an M.Phil (one down from a doctorate, basically) and years of experience in her chosen field which is quite a specialised branch of ecology. She currently uses all her academic qualifications which took her six years to get, in a job with an environmental consultancy. She spends up to six weeks away at a stretch during the summer months, works twelve hours a day most days and carries quite a burden of responsibility. For this she earns £26 000 a year, which is not much more than I earn for swanning about in a big lorry listening to Radio 4. In fact, until I got my current job she was on quite a bit less than me.
Sure, ideally we’d all be on a lot more money than we are, and I admit I get annoyed when I think about how fifteen yuears ago I was on a better deal than I am now for less demanding work, but compared with some other professions, we’re not actually doing too badly.
Carryfast:
fredthered:
Harry Monk:
There’s a simple reason why drivers’ wages are what they are, and that is that we live in a free market economy where wages are determined by the law of supply and demand.So its simples then. Create the demand by cutting off the supply!
Look at yourself as a business - you start to lose money (wages stand still for too long and your worth becomes less) but your costs keep going up (utilities, food, clothing, housing, taxes as in council tax) etc. you would as a business raise your prices or negotiate a reduction in your bills which you obviously can’t do. So the only way to redress the balance is increase your worth by reducing your availability. Simply withdraw your services until the market improves
The problem in this case being that it’s a labour market that’s rigged in favour of the employers not the workers.Your idea would only work in a closed labour market that’s insulated from the supply of cheap foreign labour in addition to workers who are prepared to fight to improve their conditions as opposed to acting like a defeated rabble.
Absolutely agree with you 100% and I was just trying to make the point that unless you vote the Lab/Con/Lib scroungers out, you’ll forever be at their every whim. The sad thing is that people don’t see what is happening or they choose to ignore it. I always tell people to vote because every time they don’t they just let things stay the same. I believe that voting should be obligatory for all those entitled to vote and those that don’t should then be prosecuted because its a dereliction of duty! The Aussies have to and they don’t have an immigration problem and they are not in any elitist club like us ‘Europeans’.
fredthered:
The Aussies … don’t have an immigration problem …
You should ask the Aboriginies about that … 
Elitist bs or not, I have just read a letter from a Doctor who split his monthly salary down to £8.33 per hour worked, isn’t this where the thread started, as for the NHS, yes it certainly has problems, but it is still the best health service in the world, free treatment for lords, lunatics, and lepers.
The salary for a hospital doctor is around 58k when fully trained, these elitist salaries as you call them, are after 10 years in the job after 6 years training. If she becomes a consultant than her sky is the limit.
You can all call yourself skilled if you like, just the same as my mates wife who is a fully skilled professional does, she is a cake decorator and spent more time learning to ice cakes than any of us did trying to drive a lorry, she doesn’t earn lorry driver wages though and she works 6 days per week.
Every time you bring an “ism” to the forum, you hark back to Taylor and Ford, who were the origins of social"‘“, and commun”’"!
I have just spent an hour repairing a computer and got £20 for it, it doesn’t mean I am on £20 per hour though does it?
newmercman:
I had an idea you would disagree GeoffreyI used to be very right wing in my political views, but now I’m more non political, I don’t value the contribution of any political party as they all work for the same banks and corporations anyway, so it doesn’t matter who gets in, they’re going to [zb] us over anyway
Ironically you seem to be a disillusioned right winger shifting to the left while I’m from the disillusioned left having shifted to the right.Which just means that we’re bright enough to know that both systems can be wrecked by human nature in the form of too much greed by a few at the top.
With the difference that at best socialism is also just the politics of envy in which it’s all about bringing everyone down to the same zb level not lifting everyone up to as high a level as possible.The latter is all about good old fashioned American Capitalist Fordism as opposed to Russian and Chinese Socialism.
fredthered:
Carryfast:
fredthered:
Harry Monk:
There’s a simple reason why drivers’ wages are what they are, and that is that we live in a free market economy where wages are determined by the law of supply and demand.So its simples then. Create the demand by cutting off the supply!
Look at yourself as a business - you start to lose money (wages stand still for too long and your worth becomes less) but your costs keep going up (utilities, food, clothing, housing, taxes as in council tax) etc. you would as a business raise your prices or negotiate a reduction in your bills which you obviously can’t do. So the only way to redress the balance is increase your worth by reducing your availability. Simply withdraw your services until the market improves
The problem in this case being that it’s a labour market that’s rigged in favour of the employers not the workers.Your idea would only work in a closed labour market that’s insulated from the supply of cheap foreign labour in addition to workers who are prepared to fight to improve their conditions as opposed to acting like a defeated rabble.
Absolutely agree with you 100% and I was just trying to make the point that unless you vote the Lab/Con/Lib scroungers out, you’ll forever be at their every whim. The sad thing is that people don’t see what is happening or they choose to ignore it. I always tell people to vote because every time they don’t they just let things stay the same. I believe that voting should be obligatory for all those entitled to vote and those that don’t should then be prosecuted because its a dereliction of duty! The Aussies have to and they don’t have an immigration problem and they are not in any elitist club like us ‘Europeans’.
The problem in this case is that there is no political Party with a Fordist economic agenda and the democratic system won’t allow abstentions to be counted as a vote of none of the above. 
Wheel Nut:
Elitist bs or not, I have just read a letter from a Doctor who split his monthly salary down to £8.33 per hour worked, isn’t this where the thread started, as for the NHS, yes it certainly has problems, but it is still the best health service in the world, free treatment for lords, lunatics, and lepers.The salary for a hospital doctor is around 58k when fully trained, these elitist salaries as you call them, are after 10 years in the job after 6 years training. If she becomes a consultant than her sky is the limit.
You can all call yourself skilled if you like, just the same as my mates wife who is a fully skilled professional does, she is a cake decorator and spent more time learning to ice cakes than any of us did trying to drive a lorry, she doesn’t earn lorry driver wages though and she works 6 days per week.
Every time you bring an “ism” to the forum, you hark back to Taylor and Ford, who were the origins of social"‘“, and commun”’"!
I have just spent an hour repairing a computer and got £20 for it, it doesn’t mean I am on £20 per hour though does it?
None of which makes those figures add up when that east european driver on the minimum wage ends up on the operating table for whatever reason and he’s then presented with the bill for the op and aftercare and possibly even all the other costs of a career ending illness.The only difference being that here the problem is all hidden behind the smoke and mirrors of the social security system and the NHS.Until the day when the money runs out.
As for Ford the ‘origins’ of the system which he planned is an economic system not a political one.It took both the Capitalist and Socialist political systems to wreck that economic system in both cases.
Carryfast:
newmercman:
I had an idea you would disagree GeoffreyI used to be very right wing in my political views, but now I’m more non political, I don’t value the contribution of any political party as they all work for the same banks and corporations anyway, so it doesn’t matter who gets in, they’re going to [zb] us over anyway
Ironically you seem to be a disillusioned right winger shifting to the left while I’m from the disillusioned left having shifted to the right.Which just means that we’re bright enough to know that both systems can be wrecked by human nature in the form of too much greed by a few at the top.
With the difference that at best socialism is also just the politics of envy in which it’s all about bringing everyone down to the same zb level not lifting everyone up to as high a level as possible.The latter is all about good old fashioned American Capitalist Fordism as opposed to Russian and Chinese Socialism.
So we actually agree 
My problem with the world is not a political one per se, I do have a problem with politicians as I believe that a politician or union leader should have passion and a desire to make changes.
The current lot are not passionate though, they either spend their time fighting the opposition party, when they should be fighting for us, or they’re doing what they’re told to do by bankers and corporations.
If anyone was to do the right thing, they would be dead in no time, look at JFK
That’s why we can’t fight this from the top with discussions and rhetoric, it needs to come from an uprising of sorts, unfortunately that too will never happen, not only are 99.999…% of the population blind to it, but even if they did suddenly see the light, the authorities would be on to it like a shot as the big brother monitoring exposed by Edward Snowden has proved.
We’re doomed, just count yourself lucky that you’re living in the present and not the future where even thinking of bucking the system will see you imprisoned as a political prisoner 
newmercman:
Carryfast:
newmercman:
I had an idea you would disagree GeoffreyI used to be very right wing in my political views, but now I’m more non political, I don’t value the contribution of any political party as they all work for the same banks and corporations anyway, so it doesn’t matter who gets in, they’re going to [zb] us over anyway
Ironically you seem to be a disillusioned right winger shifting to the left while I’m from the disillusioned left having shifted to the right.Which just means that we’re bright enough to know that both systems can be wrecked by human nature in the form of too much greed by a few at the top.
With the difference that at best socialism is also just the politics of envy in which it’s all about bringing everyone down to the same zb level not lifting everyone up to as high a level as possible.The latter is all about good old fashioned American Capitalist Fordism as opposed to Russian and Chinese Socialism.
So we actually agree
My problem with the world is not a political one per se, I do have a problem with politicians as I believe that a politician or union leader should have passion and a desire to make changes.
The current lot are not passionate though, they either spend their time fighting the opposition party, when they should be fighting for us, or they’re doing what they’re told to do by bankers and corporations.
If anyone was to do the right thing, they would be dead in no time, look at JFK
That’s why we can’t fight this from the top with discussions and rhetoric, it needs to come from an uprising of sorts, unfortunately that too will never happen, not only are 99.999…% of the population blind to it, but even if they did suddenly see the light, the authorities would be on to it like a shot as the big brother monitoring exposed by Edward Snowden has proved.
We’re doomed, just count yourself lucky that you’re living in the present and not the future where even thinking of bucking the system will see you imprisoned as a political prisoner
There was a union leader who made plenty of changes in regards to terms and conditions for drivers.His name was Hoffa.
My personal opinion is that a person earns what they’re worth. Everybody seems to want more, but at the same time they’re not willing to give more. There’s just generally too many people who think they’re drivers, but in reality, they’re no more than a bunch of steering wheel attendants.
We’ve also got to honest, driving wagons isn’t exactly rocket science. Some drivers think they’re up there with lawyers, doctors, teachers, and even super heroes. This job doesn’t need an education, or even to be able to read and write for that matter. I bet if half of the drivers out there was given a desk, and a PC to drive around the office for a day, there’d be a whole load of serious accidents.
Let’s be truthful about this, the job is more of a way of life. Yeah, there’s some responsibility, but for a couple of weeks training, how much money does one truly deserve?
If people want to earn better money, get at least some education, and choose a proper career path.
miketaurus:
Olog Hai:
newmercman:
Didn’t do the miners, steelworkers and printers much good did itNo, but on the other hand it hasn’t done the train drivers, ticket collectors/guards and those who stand on the barriers at Underground stations doing absolutely nothing whatsoever any harm. Virgin Trains drivers are on well over £40k basic for a four-day week one of them told me!!
In this fantasy world where drivers all join a union and stick together what would be the result? Would it go the way of the miner or the way of the train driver? The former, quite obviously. I doubt there are many Poles, Romanians and so on who could come across here and drive a train, but there is a million and one of them who can quite easily jump behind the wheel of an RHD truck.
Its not obvious at all. You really do not know. However if drivers just wing about it and do nothing and that floats there boat then that will that.
No, it really is obvious. If in the fantasy situation where UK drivers got organised and refused to work for less that £12ph (for example) you would find that in the majority of cases they would be replaced by Marek, Pawel and their friends. Either they’d be driving UK-registered trucks, or they’d be driving Polish trucks pulling UK trailers.
That is the simple fact of it because driving a truck requires no special skills and drivers are not difficult to find. UK drivers would have plenty of time to consider it while queuing at the job centre.
Reubs766:
My personal opinion is that a person earns what they’re worth. Everybody seems to want more, but at the same time they’re not willing to give more. There’s just generally too many people who think they’re drivers, but in reality, they’re no more than a bunch of steering wheel attendants.We’ve also got to honest, driving wagons isn’t exactly rocket science. Some drivers think they’re up there with lawyers, doctors, teachers, and even super heroes. This job doesn’t need an education, or even to be able to read and write for that matter. I bet if half of the drivers out there was given a desk, and a PC to drive around the office for a day, there’d be a whole load of serious accidents.
Let’s be truthful about this, the job is more of a way of life. Yeah, there’s some responsibility, but for a couple of weeks training, how much money does one truly deserve?
If people want to earn better money, get at least some education, and choose a proper career path.
It doesn’t necessarily work that way though. As I said above, my fiancee has had a proper career since she left university, and she isn’t on much more money than me. Come to that, I’ve been offered jobs using my own academic qualifications and I’ve turned them down because taking them would have involved taking a pay cut.
You say people earn what they’re worth … I’m not sure that’s true, either. We’ve all worked with someone who rolls back in the yard at 5pm, dumps the trailer without opening the curtains or unhitching the unit and ■■■■■■ off home. And we’ve all bemoaned the fact that those people earn the same as we do.
Personally, I never expected to get rich doing this job, but I did at least think that my wage might keep pace with inflation, plus a bit every year. That doesn’t seem to be too much to ask, especially when the gap between rich and poor in our society gets wider every day. This issue is about much much more than just lorry drivers vs. the rest of the world.
Reubs766:
My personal opinion is that a person earns what they’re worth. Everybody seems to want more, but at the same time they’re not willing to give more. There’s just generally too many people who think they’re drivers, but in reality, they’re no more than a bunch of steering wheel attendants.
This is right also. I struggle to understand those who for whatever reason think that because they’ve done a couple of weeks’ training to get from being a car driver to being able to drive an artic, in some cases not very well, they suddenly consider themselves not prepared to ‘get out of bed’ (as the awful cliche goes) for anything less than double figures per hour.
If they can get the big money for turning a steering wheel all day then fair play. But just because you can suddenly drive a lorry doesn’t miraculously increase your worth despite what plenty of the heroes seem to think.
Rhythm Thief:
Reubs766:
My personal opinion is that a person earns what they’re worth. Everybody seems to want more, but at the same time they’re not willing to give more. There’s just generally too many people who think they’re drivers, but in reality, they’re no more than a bunch of steering wheel attendants.We’ve also got to honest, driving wagons isn’t exactly rocket science. Some drivers think they’re up there with lawyers, doctors, teachers, and even super heroes. This job doesn’t need an education, or even to be able to read and write for that matter. I bet if half of the drivers out there was given a desk, and a PC to drive around the office for a day, there’d be a whole load of serious accidents.
Let’s be truthful about this, the job is more of a way of life. Yeah, there’s some responsibility, but for a couple of weeks training, how much money does one truly deserve?
If people want to earn better money, get at least some education, and choose a proper career path.
Personally, I never expected to get rich doing this job, but I did at least think that my wage migh keep pace with inflation, plus a bit every year. That doesn’t seem to be too much to ask, especially when the gap between rich and poor in our society gets wider every day.
Everyone would like to think that their wage would increase with at least the rate of inflation, but how can it? Some firms give a pay rise every year, but others can’t afford to for the rates aren’t going up, yet the fuel prices are. What about the drivers who feel it is appropriate to ‘just nip off 30 miles’ out of the way to have a beer with their mates, or this stealing diesel? After seeing one at it, his response was “what’s a couple of gallon between friends?”. A couple of hundred quid a year. For the most of us who can be trusted, there’s always some little oik making things tighter for the company, and so the company can’t quite stretch to that pay rise we all want. No doubt, these oiks that are wasting/stealing fuel are the biggest whingers out of the lot.
Carryfast:
newmercman:
Carryfast:
newmercman:
I had an idea you would disagree GeoffreyI used to be very right wing in my political views, but now I’m more non political, I don’t value the contribution of any political party as they all work for the same banks and corporations anyway, so it doesn’t matter who gets in, they’re going to [zb] us over anyway
Ironically you seem to be a disillusioned right winger shifting to the left while I’m from the disillusioned left having shifted to the right.Which just means that we’re bright enough to know that both systems can be wrecked by human nature in the form of too much greed by a few at the top.
With the difference that at best socialism is also just the politics of envy in which it’s all about bringing everyone down to the same zb level not lifting everyone up to as high a level as possible.The latter is all about good old fashioned American Capitalist Fordism as opposed to Russian and Chinese Socialism.
So we actually agree
My problem with the world is not a political one per se, I do have a problem with politicians as I believe that a politician or union leader should have passion and a desire to make changes.
The current lot are not passionate though, they either spend their time fighting the opposition party, when they should be fighting for us, or they’re doing what they’re told to do by bankers and corporations.
If anyone was to do the right thing, they would be dead in no time, look at JFK
That’s why we can’t fight this from the top with discussions and rhetoric, it needs to come from an uprising of sorts, unfortunately that too will never happen, not only are 99.999…% of the population blind to it, but even if they did suddenly see the light, the authorities would be on to it like a shot as the big brother monitoring exposed by Edward Snowden has proved.
We’re doomed, just count yourself lucky that you’re living in the present and not the future where even thinking of bucking the system will see you imprisoned as a political prisoner
There was a union leader who made plenty of changes in regards to terms and conditions for drivers.His name was Hoffa.
Yep…and look what happened to him, the media portrayed him as having a Mafia connection, which was either a smear campaign to discredit his accomplishments and explain his disappearence, or it was true and he was corrupted by power
Either way, he ended up propping up a flyover
newmercman:
Carryfast:
newmercman:
Carryfast:
newmercman:
I had an idea you would disagree GeoffreyI used to be very right wing in my political views, but now I’m more non political, I don’t value the contribution of any political party as they all work for the same banks and corporations anyway, so it doesn’t matter who gets in, they’re going to [zb] us over anyway
Ironically you seem to be a disillusioned right winger shifting to the left while I’m from the disillusioned left having shifted to the right.Which just means that we’re bright enough to know that both systems can be wrecked by human nature in the form of too much greed by a few at the top.
With the difference that at best socialism is also just the politics of envy in which it’s all about bringing everyone down to the same zb level not lifting everyone up to as high a level as possible.The latter is all about good old fashioned American Capitalist Fordism as opposed to Russian and Chinese Socialism.
So we actually agree
My problem with the world is not a political one per se, I do have a problem with politicians as I believe that a politician or union leader should have passion and a desire to make changes.
The current lot are not passionate though, they either spend their time fighting the opposition party, when they should be fighting for us, or they’re doing what they’re told to do by bankers and corporations.
If anyone was to do the right thing, they would be dead in no time, look at JFK
That’s why we can’t fight this from the top with discussions and rhetoric, it needs to come from an uprising of sorts, unfortunately that too will never happen, not only are 99.999…% of the population blind to it, but even if they did suddenly see the light, the authorities would be on to it like a shot as the big brother monitoring exposed by Edward Snowden has proved.
We’re doomed, just count yourself lucky that you’re living in the present and not the future where even thinking of bucking the system will see you imprisoned as a political prisoner
There was a union leader who made plenty of changes in regards to terms and conditions for drivers.His name was Hoffa.
Yep…and look what happened to him, the media portrayed him as having a Mafia connection, which was either a smear campaign to discredit his accomplishments and explain his disappearence, or it was true and he was corrupted by power
Either way, he ended up propping up a flyover
Exactly that was my point.His ‘removal’,like others of similar calibre,from the scene,fits in with your ( spot on ) assessment of the whole rotten situation concerning the hijacking of the developed western economies and the eventual sell out of them by people like Reagan.
As for the case of the mob connections at worst it was ‘possibly’ a case of ‘some’ truth in it to a limited degree for tactical reasons concerning having to fight fire,in the form of the powerful corrupt ‘sub contracted’ strike breaking agencies,with fire in the form of the even more powerful,albeit also corrupt,‘sub contracted’ resistance,nothing more nothing less.Which was then exaggerated out of all proportion by the even more corrupt interests,which you’re referring to,which eventually obviously won out in the long term.
While at best it was nothing more than smear tactics by those corrupt strike breaking agencies.The fact that Hoffa was removed from the scene,together with all the implications of that in regards to putting the frighteners on all those who’d worked with him,thereby removing any chance of the real story being told,says everything.IE JFK might have been an accident but the case of Hoffa when added to that suggests more than just a co incidence.While it’s equally obvious that both would probably be turning in their graves to know that the Chinese Communist Party have been one of the biggest winners in the whole scam at the expense of American workers. 
Reubs766:
Rhythm Thief:
Reubs766:
My personal opinion is that a person earns what they’re worth. Everybody seems to want more, but at the same time they’re not willing to give more. There’s just generally too many people who think they’re drivers, but in reality, they’re no more than a bunch of steering wheel attendants.We’ve also got to honest, driving wagons isn’t exactly rocket science. Some drivers think they’re up there with lawyers, doctors, teachers, and even super heroes. This job doesn’t need an education, or even to be able to read and write for that matter. I bet if half of the drivers out there was given a desk, and a PC to drive around the office for a day, there’d be a whole load of serious accidents.
Let’s be truthful about this, the job is more of a way of life. Yeah, there’s some responsibility, but for a couple of weeks training, how much money does one truly deserve?
If people want to earn better money, get at least some education, and choose a proper career path.
Personally, I never expected to get rich doing this job, but I did at least think that my wage migh keep pace with inflation, plus a bit every year. That doesn’t seem to be too much to ask, especially when the gap between rich and poor in our society gets wider every day.
Everyone would like to think that their wage would increase with at least the rate of inflation, but how can it? Some firms give a pay rise every year, but others can’t afford to for the rates aren’t going up, yet the fuel prices are. What about the drivers who feel it is appropriate to ‘just nip off 30 miles’ out of the way to have a beer with their mates, or this stealing diesel? After seeing one at it, his response was “what’s a couple of gallon between friends?”. A couple of hundred quid a year. For the most of us who can be trusted, there’s always some little oik making things tighter for the company, and so the company can’t quite stretch to that pay rise we all want. No doubt, these oiks that are wasting/stealing fuel are the biggest whingers out of the lot.
As he was putting your livelihood in jeopardy did you turn him in? If not why not? You were just as bad as him - you may as well of helped yourself too because you were an accomplice to his theft. Double standards methinks!
fredthered:
Harry Monk:
There’s a simple reason why drivers’ wages are what they are, and that is that we live in a free market economy where wages are determined by the law of supply and demand.So its simples then. Create the demand by cutting off the supply!
Look at yourself as a business - you start to lose money (wages stand still for too long and your worth becomes less) but your costs keep going up (utilities, food, clothing, housing, taxes as in council tax) etc. you would as a business raise your prices or negotiate a reduction in your bills which you obviously can’t do. So the only way to redress the balance is increase your worth by reducing your availability. Simply withdraw your services until the market improves
Bump!
fredthered:
Reubs766:
Rhythm Thief:
Reubs766:
My personal opinion is that a person earns what they’re worth. Everybody seems to want more, but at the same time they’re not willing to give more. There’s just generally too many people who think they’re drivers, but in reality, they’re no more than a bunch of steering wheel attendants.We’ve also got to honest, driving wagons isn’t exactly rocket science. Some drivers think they’re up there with lawyers, doctors, teachers, and even super heroes. This job doesn’t need an education, or even to be able to read and write for that matter. I bet if half of the drivers out there was given a desk, and a PC to drive around the office for a day, there’d be a whole load of serious accidents.
Let’s be truthful about this, the job is more of a way of life. Yeah, there’s some responsibility, but for a couple of weeks training, how much money does one truly deserve?
If people want to earn better money, get at least some education, and choose a proper career path.
Personally, I never expected to get rich doing this job, but I did at least think that my wage migh keep pace with inflation, plus a bit every year. That doesn’t seem to be too much to ask, especially when the gap between rich and poor in our society gets wider every day.
Everyone would like to think that their wage would increase with at least the rate of inflation, but how can it? Some firms give a pay rise every year, but others can’t afford to for the rates aren’t going up, yet the fuel prices are. What about the drivers who feel it is appropriate to ‘just nip off 30 miles’ out of the way to have a beer with their mates, or this stealing diesel? After seeing one at it, his response was “what’s a couple of gallon between friends?”. A couple of hundred quid a year. For the most of us who can be trusted, there’s always some little oik making things tighter for the company, and so the company can’t quite stretch to that pay rise we all want. No doubt, these oiks that are wasting/stealing fuel are the biggest whingers out of the lot.
As he was putting your livelihood in jeopardy did you turn him in? If not why not? You were just as bad as him - you may as well of helped yourself too because you were an accomplice to his theft. Double standards methinks!
What the hell? Who do you think you are? Being a ‘company man’, I wouldn’t stand for some ■■■■■■■■ taking the ■■■■ out of a company.