Imagine if the government had backed Frank Whittle as he tried to develop a working jet engine.
Many years ago, research and technological achievements were the mainstay of universities funding. Private enterprise realised that there was a big slice of money available from the government (not to mention releasing their tech to the public), and wanted a slice of it. As long as the government gets a share of the returns, they don’t care where the money goes.
As I said earlier. Money, nothing more nothing less.
About 27 years ago i worked at a plant that produced
Heavy plant machinery.Welding ,The firm was constantly on about new robots coming in to replace us ,The topic came up every time we were in pay talks .
We were well payed and always got good wage rises .
The robots came and people went ,But they never took the lads jobs for long ,The firms always looking for lads to this day .And those robots cost a bomb when they break The robots were good but just not human.
And will never completely remove the need for humans.
Trucks will never be fully automated on the road systems we have now .
eagerbeaver:
It would seem that automated wagons are being discussed more and more, but what is the end goal of all this?
I am aware we have some ’ experts ’ on here, but I am struggling to see the ultimate end game for all this.
Is it to save lives? Reduce congestion? Create jobs?
Just don’t get it. Help the Beaver, I insist
Technical progress, right or wrong, but as humans we move things on. We learnt to use object as tools, then we made tools, then we kept the animals and crops we needed near us, instead of having to search for them. And on it goes.
I don’t think there is an end game so to speak though or even a coherent plan, just people looking for ways to make more money short term, the long term consequences are not their concern.
However it is interesting that some of the leading inventors and scientists, including Stehpen Hawkings, Bill Gates and Elon Musk are warning about the possible consequences of AI on the human species, if development and uses aren’t controlled.
I remember bank staff from about 50 years ago, they thought that they were sooooooooooooooooooooooooo important. Now who needs them an A.T.M. works 24/7. A similar scenario might just might unfold concerning us drivers.
muckles:
However it is interesting that some of the leading inventors and scientists, including Stehpen Hawkings, Bill Gates and Elon Musk are warning about the possible consequences of AI on the human species, if development and uses aren’t controlled.
Exactly the kind of high profile tech celebrities that influenced the unstoppable desire for this stuff . Tut, Frankenstein and his out of control monster eh? I dunno
muckles:
However it is interesting that some of the leading inventors and scientists, including Stehpen Hawkings, Bill Gates and Elon Musk are warning about the possible consequences of AI on the human species, if development and uses aren’t controlled.
For those with time on their hands a bit of Asimov makes interesting reading, lots of short stories (way ahead of his time) that give some very interesting scenarios.
If automated vehicles can bring down the number of deaths and serious injuries on the roads then it will be hailed as a success, remember though, this is bring down, not eradicate! Unfortunate for those that suffer when it goes wrong (and it will go wrong) but statistics count more than anything else, well apart from those making money out of it of course.
muckles:
However it is interesting that some of the leading inventors and scientists, including Stehpen Hawkings, Bill Gates and Elon Musk are warning about the possible consequences of AI on the human species, if development and uses aren’t controlled.
Exactly the kind of high profile tech celebrities that influenced the unstoppable desire for this stuff . Tut, Frankenstein and his out of control monster eh? I dunno
I think you’re being unfair on them; Stephen Hawkings hasn’t really invented anything just come up with wild theories on life the universe and everything, and told us all about it while sounding like a dalek.
Without Bill Gates it would be unlikely the home computer systems or the uses would have been so readily available and therefore if we had internet we might be going to a central point like a library to access information, wouldn’t make posting stuff on trucknet at 10:30 pm on a Sunday night very easy and Elon Musk might have accelerated the development of electric vehicles, but others were working on automation before him and without people like him, or Henry Ford, Edison, Boeing or the pioneers of the industrial revolution we wouldn’t live the life we’re living, we’d be tending fields and have a life expectancy of about 50 years and quite frankly probably be grateful for that as it releases us from the grind of basic survival.
muckles:
However it is interesting that some of the leading inventors and scientists, including Stehpen Hawkings, Bill Gates and Elon Musk are warning about the possible consequences of AI on the human species, if development and uses aren’t controlled.
Exactly the kind of high profile tech celebrities that influenced the unstoppable desire for this stuff . Tut, Frankenstein and his out of control monster eh? I dunno
I think you’re being unfair on them; Stephen Hawkings hasn’t really invented anything just come up with wild theories on life the universe and everything, and told us all about it while sounding like a dalek.
Without Bill Gates it would be unlikely the home computer systems or the uses would have been so readily available and therefore if we had internet we might be going to a central point like a library to access information, wouldn’t make posting stuff on trucknet at 10:30 pm on a Sunday night very easy and Elon Musk might have accelerated the development of electric vehicles, but others were working on automation before him and without people like him, or Henry Ford, Edison, Boeing or the pioneers of the industrial revolution we wouldn’t live the life we’re living, we’d be tending fields and have a life expectancy of about 50 years and quite frankly probably be grateful for that as it releases us from the grind of basic survival.
I was speaking figuratively, not literally, them. I not for once have castigated any great achievements by those people (apart from not liking musks Teslas but that’s because I’m a car enthusiast and it’s personal taste) Nor have I ever show systemic disdain for great industrial and technological achievements. Rather the opposite. I work in an advanced industry and am only too aware of some of the advances and impacts that this has had on our globe, both technologically and sociologically. That does not negate consideration and introspection of the future trajectory of a particular topic, and neither should it.
However, all this is rather by the by as my point has been somewhat “straw manned”. I was not at all denigrating technological achievement. What I was figuratively answering a very particular point, was this notion by certainly Musk that this March of automation could not be helped. Musing in fact that it is truism that media and cultural acceptance is propelled by publicity. It was a light hearted musing and not altogether without tipping a hat to the fact there’s a lot more to it than that. Just the irony of one of the main proponents holding his hands up didn’t escape me.
Get what you mean about Hawkins being a Dalek though, he scared me as a kid
Freight Dog:
I was speaking figuratively, not literally, them. I not for once have castigated any great achievements by those people (apart from not liking musks Teslas but that’s because I’m a car enthusiast and it’s personal taste) Nor have I ever show systemic disdain for great industrial and technological achievements■■? Rather the opposite. I work a very advanced industry myself and am only too aware of some of the advances and impacts that this has had on our globe. That does not negate consideration and prospering of the future though, and ■■■■ rightly neither should it.
However, all this is rather by the by as my point has been “straw manned”. I was not at all denigrating technological achievement. What I was figuratively answering a very particular point, was this notion by certainly Musk that this March of automation could not be helped. Musing in fact that it is truism that media and cultural acceptance is propelled by publicity. It was a light hearted musing and not altogether without tipping a hat to the fact there’s a lot more to it than that. Just the irony of one of the main proponents holding his hands up didn’t escape me.
I think I see what you’re getting at, but Elon Musk or not I think progress, good and bad, is inevitable. At least those who are leading this can also see the downsides, unlike their disciples.
I don’t think the problems will come from the innovators, but from the corporations, who want automation to reduce their staff costs and want to push automated products to increase profits.
Although they might have CEO’s and executives who see the problems and large company is in itself a separate entity that by it’s very being has no understanding of long term philosophical issues, but just operates on short term profit.
Freight Dog:
I was speaking figuratively, not literally, them. I not for once have castigated any great achievements by those people (apart from not liking musks Teslas but that’s because I’m a car enthusiast and it’s personal taste) Nor have I ever show systemic disdain for great industrial and technological achievements■■? Rather the opposite. I work a very advanced industry myself and am only too aware of some of the advances and impacts that this has had on our globe. That does not negate consideration and prospering of the future though, and ■■■■ rightly neither should it.
However, all this is rather by the by as my point has been “straw manned”. I was not at all denigrating technological achievement. What I was figuratively answering a very particular point, was this notion by certainly Musk that this March of automation could not be helped. Musing in fact that it is truism that media and cultural acceptance is propelled by publicity. It was a light hearted musing and not altogether without tipping a hat to the fact there’s a lot more to it than that. Just the irony of one of the main proponents holding his hands up didn’t escape me.
I think I see what you’re getting at, but Elon Musk or not I think progress, good and bad, is inevitable. At least those who are leading this can also see the downsides, unlike their disciples.
I don’t think the problems will come from the innovators, but from the corporations, who want automation to reduce their staff costs and want to push automated products to increase profits.
Although they might have CEO’s and executives who see the problems and large company is in itself a separate entity that by it’s very being has no understanding of long term philosophical issues, but just operates on short term profit.
Ah you’ve responded whist I was editing . You know I read it back and thought “crikey that does sound a little terse, didn’t mean to” ha
The point of automation is to be the first to eradicate your human drones and make an the biggest pot of cash you can before automation can cause enough unemployment to collapse the markets.
Once automation has taken over virtually every meaningful aspect of producing and distributing goods and services, you have a major problem - a massive over abundance of sub-humans without money, jobs or means. Luckily, you’ve planned for this and with a few tugs on the strings of your government puppets and the cull can begin.
eagerbeaver:
It would seem that automated wagons are being discussed more and more, but what is the end goal of all this?
I am aware we have some ’ experts ’ on here, but I am struggling to see the ultimate end game for all this.
Is it to save lives? Reduce congestion? Create jobs?
Just don’t get it. Help the Beaver, I insist
Saves operators money on drivers, gets more done as the trucks don’t need to rest.
Upside is that it means yet another dangerous job that is bad for your health and has ridiculous hours is consigned to the history books where it belongs. People didn’t mourn not being able to work 84hrs a week in t’mill when that was automated out, we shouldn’t mourn the end of this.
As robroy says though, we probably won’t see it by the time we retire but I reckon we’ll live long enough to.
eagerbeaver:
It would seem that automated wagons are being discussed more and more, but what is the end goal of all this?
I am aware we have some ’ experts ’ on here, but I am struggling to see the ultimate end game for all this.
Is it to save lives? Reduce congestion? Create jobs?
Just don’t get it. Help the Beaver, I insist
Saves operators money on drivers, gets more done as the trucks don’t need to rest.
Upside is that it means yet another dangerous job that is bad for your health and has ridiculous hours is consigned to the history books where it belongs. People didn’t mourn not being able to work 84hrs a week in t’mill when that was automated out, we shouldn’t mourn the end of this.
As robroy says though, we probably won’t see it by the time we retire but I reckon we’ll live long enough to.
From the article on the other thread.
“According to Embark, the goal isn’t to replace drivers entirely, but rather to let autonomous trucks pilot themselves on highways, then use drivers to navigate on/off ramps and local roads”
And given that if drivers are still having to be aware enough to take control when needed (or leaving the motorway etc.), they’ll still need tacho breaks.
In essence, this autonomy malarkey is a bit of a waste of time since there aren’t any real benefits to it.
the nodding donkey:
The problem with scientists is that they have an ego. They want to be the next Edison, the next Currie, the next Newton. Creating artificial intelligence, and an autonomous robot around it, is their holy grail. The fact that it may spell our doom, is of no concern to their quest to be the next Asimov…
^
The donkey has it here.
Theyre all after that magical acolade, something that will propel them to absolute fame.
All very well designing a phone that can do everything bar cook a roast beef dinner but getting the public to accept that 44ton autonomous truck carreering up behind them is going to stop is another thing. Personally dont think it will ever happen…
Daytrunker:
Simples Mr Beaver.
Only got to look at the knuckle draggers who reckon they “can drive a truck” if it was as Lucy’s post about favourite gearboxes was the only truck avaliable most of em wouldn’t bother or have the know how to even start a truck let alone get out the yard without destroying a gearbox or clutch.
Trucks are doings more of the driving than the driver with Auto this or that,“lane detection warning” wtf is that about so you need a buzzer to go off if you drift out of your lane,don’t you have to look forward anymore?
Jeff.
I don’t understand this attitude on lane departure, now I’ve never used a truck with it. But I don’t see why people are against the principal of it?
Yes of course you look forward a stay in line, but I don’t think there’ll be many drivers of any miles that haven’t had a vehicle drift over into their lane, I can still remember the 1st time it happened to me in my 1st few weeks of driving. And will have done it to others too, unless you’re the perfect person that doesn’t make any mistakes Jeff?!!
So why not have a device that makes up for human shortcomings, that’ll save a few crashes?
In today’s lecture I’ll be introducing the concept of “Universal Income”. So I hope you’ve all done your preparation?
If you haven’t, do so now so you can get over your outrage and get past the WASP “work ethic” stuff. It ain’t easy, but here comes the future.
What’s the point of technology? As said already there is no overriding plan. We aren’t in a command economy.
Governments do have levers to pull (legislative, tax and central banks) to influence economies but we don’t have any credible long time term plans.
Businesses are concerned with profits and shareholders. They are concerned about the short term. That naybe ten or twenty years, but beyond that they simply don’t care.
Western democracy has politicians concerned more with the next election than the long term future.
Truth be told, that’s the same as most people. We talk about animal welfare, but buy cheap meat. We talk about pensions , but buy holidays.
Governments are behind the curve on autonomy as they are on genetics. Technology can run ahead of legislation.
In spite of some opinions expressed here, scientists and engineers come in many different varieties, and many of them are human beings with families! It’s true! They’re concerned for the future as we are. They’re not the monomaniacal nutters presented in some parts of the media.
Enough rambling, a post here isn’t a fully developed argument.
Autonomy is coming. Businesses and their servants the politicos will see to that.
Capitalism is a giant Ponzi scheme. But it’s pyramid is spreading too far and it will collapse. It needs endless resources
and they’re not available.
Our social care system needs ever more young people to help the retirees. We’re running out of land.
Capitalism through pursuing short term gains will ensure it’s long term demise.
Maybe we’ll end with lots more automation and everyone on a Universal Income. No NEED to work anymore. The UI will be enough to be comfortable. More than baked beans and chips at every meal.
How we get to this society is problematic.
So is how we achieve full automation. I can see fully automated trucks, at some pount, but I can’t see a smooth transition.
Man can’t survive travelling faster than a horse can run.
Internal combustion will never replace steam power.
Heavier than air machines will never fly.
Self driving vehicles won’t work.
As is always the case in automation threads, a pack of lorry drivers know better than the engineering brains of Daimler, Volvo and ZF and their multi-billion euro R&M budgets.
The attraction to the chattering classes of autonomous lorries should not be underestimated. They will regard it as a solution to the issue of spectacular accidents involving lorries that close major roads for hours at a time; the aggressive idiot that uses his lorry as a weapon wherever possible; the blundering Eastern Euro who drives at 15mph for no obvious reason; the endless bridge bashes caused by drivers who are unable to read height signs in the cab… the list goes on.
AndrewG:
…but getting the public to accept that 44ton autonomous truck carreering up behind them is going to stop is another thing.
Given the level to which the UK haulage industry is infested with idiots, that is already a legitimate concern even before automation arrives, which it will.
Olog Hai:
As is always the case in automation threads, a pack of lorry drivers know better than the engineering brains of Daimler, Volvo and ZF and their multi-billion euro R&M budgets.
The attraction to the chattering classes of autonomous lorries should not be underestimated. They will regard it as a solution to the issue of spectacular accidents involving lorries that close major roads for hours at a time; the aggressive idiot that uses his lorry as a weapon wherever possible; the blundering Eastern Euro who drives at 15mph for no obvious reason; the endless bridge bashes caused by drivers who are unable to read height signs in the cab… the list goes on.
AndrewG:
…but getting the public to accept that 44ton autonomous truck carreering up behind them is going to stop is another thing.
Given the level to which the UK haulage industry is infested with idiots, that is already a legitimate concern even before automation arrives, which it will.
It is nothing to do with lorry drivers, it is to do with demographics, and reality.
The only way any autonomous vehicle can function, is when it is only confronted with, and surrounded by, known quantities. The easiest example to give is an equal junction.
Four vehicles approach an equal junction. Who goes first? Each car has both right of way, and at the same time must yield… Human drivers solve this through interaction, courtesy or bullying. Tiny signals, eye contact, and personality all play a part in a situation that the computer can’t solve.
on here, but I am struggling to see the ultimate end game for all this.
. Tut, Frankenstein and his out of control monster eh? I dunno 