Weekly rest trivia question

[coffeeholic]

205:
week 2 starts at 13:00 on tuesday

His working week starts at 13:00 Tuesday, the working week is different to the fixed week

205:
as we are not tied to a fixed week…ie 00:00 monday until 23:59 sunday

We are when it come to weekly rest periods, each fixed week - 00:00 Monday - 24:00 Sunday - must have a weekly rest applying to it. The rest period which finished at 13:00 on Tuesday is for the previous week therefore a rest must commence by latest 23:59 Sunday for it to apply to the week.

205:
so the weekly rest that starts at 02:00 on mon is attached to the previous 6 days

2 hours 1 minute to late for that. A weekly rest period which begins in one week and ends in teh next may be counted in either week, but not both. A weekly rest period which starts in one week cannot be attched to teh previous week.

205:
taken from rules published by VOSA

Note: An actual working week starts at the end of a weekly rest period, and finishes when another
weekly rest period is commenced, which may mean weekly rest is taken in the middle of a fixed
(Monday to Sunday) week. This is perfectly acceptable — the working week is not required to be
aligned with the ‘fixed’ week contained in the rules, provided all the relevant limits are complied with.

Exactly, that confirms my point. The working week can be different to the fixed week and can begin and end in different fixed weeks but there must be a daily rest for each fixed week.

In you example, Week 1 has a rest period, it begins in Week 1 and ends in Week 2. Week 3 has a rest period, it begins at 02:00 on Monday, but Week 2 does not have a rest period. Because the rest period which ended in Week 2 is for Week 1 then a rest period must commence in Week 2 for it to count for that week.

[coffeeholic]

ROG:
I cannot believe that you seem to have fell into the same trap as I often do

I don’t believe I have ROG

ROG:
Each regulation shall be viewed as it is written and on it’s own.

Yes, I agree.

ROG:
If it is linked to any other regulation then it will state as much in that regulation.

It will

ROG:
You have linked two regulations together instead of taking each one on it’s own merits.

No I haven’t

ROG:
The two regulations, which happen to have the same wording within them, seem as though they should be linked but in fact are seperate. The wording, although the same, has different meanings for each.

And therein lies the problem. When a term is used in regulations that term has a meaning and that meaning is consistent throughout, it doesn’t have different meanings in different parts of the legislation. A Mike points out, the person who said what you have quoted above lost their case because the judges ruled that wording can’t have different meanings in different parts of the regulations.

ROG:
As you have told me in the past - take each regulation and see if the requirement of that regulation has been met - if yes, then it’s legal.

Indeed. So, we know when a 24-hour period starts and ends because the regulations are very clear on this, starts when a rest period ends and ends when a rest period starts.

Weekly rest period
24-hour period starts
11-hour rest starts, 1st 24-hour period ends
11-hour rest ends, 2nd 24-hour period starts
11-hour rest starts, 2nd 24-hour period ends
11-hour rest ends, 3rd 24-hour period starts
11-hour rest starts, 3rd 24-hour period ends
11-hour rest ends, 4th 24-hour period starts
11-hour rest starts, 4th 24-hour period ends
11-hour rest ends, 5th 24-hour period starts
11-hour rest starts, 5th 24-hour period ends
11-hour rest ends, 6th 24-hour period starts
11-hour rest start, 6th 24-hour period ends.

Regulations very clear that after six 24 hour periods weekly rest must be taken so that last 11-hour daily rest period will have to be extended into a weekly rest period. So I’ve looked at each regulation and it looks like it has all been met.

Weekly rest period
24-hour period starts
11-hour rest starts, 1st 24-hour period ends
11-hour rest ends, 2nd 24-hour period starts
11-hour rest starts, 2nd 24-hour period ends
11-hour rest ends, 3rd 24-hour period starts
11-hour rest starts, 3rd 2- hour period ends
11-hour rest ends, 4th 24-hour period starts
11-hour rest starts, 4th 24-hour period ends
11-hour rest ends, 5th 24-hour period starts
11-hour rest starts, 5th 24-hour period ends
11-hour rest ends, 6th 24-hour period starts
11-hour rest start, 6th 24-hour period ends.
11-hour rest ends, 7th 24-hour period starts…

Hang on a minute, the regulations say after six 24-hour periods a weekly rest must be taken, that doesn’t look like it complies.
So which part of the regulations are you meeting which says you can have seven 24-hour periods then?

[205]

start - finish
mon 9:00 - 00:00
tues 9:00 - 00:00
wed 9:00 - 00:00
thurs 9:00 - 22:00
fri 9:00 - 22:00
sat 9:00 - 22:00
sun
mon
tues 13:00 - 04:00
wed 13:00 - 04:00
thurs 13:00 - 0400
fri 13:00 - 02:00
sat 13:00 - 02:00
sun 13:00 - 02:00

your next weekly rest is due to start before 13:00 on monday as this is the end of the 6th 24hr period following your last weekly rest
if you finish at 02:00 on monday, your weekly rest will start at 02:00 on monday because you cant start another shift until you have a full weekly rest

coffeeholic:
You do not have a rest period in the second week in your example and each week must have a rest period applying to it, the rest period which finished at 13:00 on Tuesday is for week 1. Week 2 needs a rest period as well and by going beyond 23:59 there is no rest period for that week.

for the purpose of the fixed week, a weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be counted in either week but not in both.
so the rest period at the start of week 1 is added to week 1 and the rest period at the end of week 1 is added to week 2
and if there not taking about a fixed week,how can a weekly rest period fall in 2 working weeks if a working week begins when you finish a weekly rest and ends when you begin a weekly rest period

or look at it this way

In any two consecutive ‘fixed’ weeks a driver must take at least:

• two regular weekly rests; or
• one regular weekly rest and one reduced weekly rest.

A weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be counted in either week but not in both.

day 1 = 9:00 - 00:00 weekly rest 1 ends at 9:00
day 2 = 9:00 - 00:00
day 3 = 9:00 - 00:00
day 4 = 9:00 - 22:00
day 5 = 9:00 - 22:00
day 6 = 9:00 - 22:00 weekly rest 2 begins at 22:00
day 7 =
day 8 =
day 9 = 13:00 - 04:00 weekly rest 2 ends at 13:00
day 10 = 13:00 - 04:00
day 11 = 13:00 - 0400
day 12 = 13:00 - 02:00
day 13 = 13:00 - 02:00
day 14 =13:00 - 02:00 weekly rest 3 begins at 02:00

so 14 days = 2 weeks and 2 weekly rests taken

[coffeeholic]

205:
for the purpose of the fixed week, a weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be counted in either week but not in both.
so the rest period at the start of week 1 is added to week 1 and the rest period at the end of week 1 is added to week 2

That would be fine except Mike already said each rest period is for the week before so the rest at the start of week one is for the previous week, week 0, and the one at the end is for week 1.

205:
and if there not taking about a fixed week,how can a weekly rest period fall in 2 working weeks if a working week begins when you finish a weekly rest and ends when you begin a weekly rest period

They are talking about fixed weeks. A rest period doesn’t fall in two working weeks unless they are aligned with the fixed weeks.

205:
or look at it this way

In any two consecutive ‘fixed’ weeks a driver must take at least:

• two regular weekly rests; or
• one regular weekly rest and one reduced weekly rest.

A weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be counted in either week but not in both.

Exactly, your quoting it then ignoring it.

205:
day 1 = 9:00 - 00:00 weekly rest 1 ends at 9:00
day 2 = 9:00 - 00:00
day 3 = 9:00 - 00:00
day 4 = 9:00 - 22:00
day 5 = 9:00 - 22:00
day 6 = 9:00 - 22:00 weekly rest 2 begins at 22:00
day 7 =
day 8 =
day 9 = 13:00 - 04:00 weekly rest 2 ends at 13:00
day 10 = 13:00 - 04:00
day 11 = 13:00 - 0400
day 12 = 13:00 - 02:00
day 13 = 13:00 - 02:00
day 14 =13:00 - 02:00 weekly rest 3 begins at 02:00

so 14 days = 2 weeks and 2 weekly rests taken

But the second fixed week ends at 24:00 on Day 14 whereas the working week is finishing at 02:00 on Day 15. Weekly rest 1 is for the previous week, Week 0. Weekly rest 2 is for Week 1 (00:00 Day 1 to 24:00 Day 7) and the second fixed week ( 00:00 Day 8 to 24:00 Day 14) doesn’t have a rest period applying to it as you aren’t starting the rest until 02:00 on Day 15, which is in in Week 3.

205:
so 14 days = 2 weeks and 2 weekly rests taken

14 days and 2 hours = 3 weeks and 2 weekly rests taken which isn’t legal. Because weekly rest 2 is for Week 1 you must commence a weekly rest in Week 2 and you aren’t, you are starting it 2 hours late in Week 3.

[rog]

Coffeeholic:
Indeed. So, we know when a 24-hour period starts and ends because the regulations are very clear on this, starts when a rest period ends and ends when a rest period starts.

Coffeeholic:
So which part of the regulations are you meeting which says you can have seven 24-hour periods then?

Lets take the two regulations in their own right -

The first is the weekly rest requirement -
After a weekly rest the driver starts at 6am Monday and starts a new weekly rest at 6am Sunday

Article 8
6.
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.

so the driver must start a new weekly rest by 6am Sunday which he does so = LEGAL

Now the second regulation regarding daily rest -
A driver starts a shift at the end of a daily or weekly rest at 0600

Article 8
2. Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period.

Within 24 hours of an 0600 start, (0600 the next day) the driver must fit in a daily rest.
The driver finishes at 1800.
Question - has the driver got a daily rest within 24 hours from 0600 start - yes = LEGAL

Driver starts next shift at 0300

Article 8
2. Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period.

Within 24 hours of an 0300 start, (0300 the next day) the driver must fit in a daily rest.
The driver finishes at 1500.
Question - has the driver got a daily rest within 24 hours from 0300 start - yes = LEGAL

It does not matter how many times this is done as long as the regulation is adhered to.

The number of times it can be done is only restricted by the weekly rest requirement -

Article 8
6.
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.

If a regulation had said -
A new 24-hour period will start after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period and driver shall have taken a new daily rest period within that 24-hour period.
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period
That would be different as it links them together.

Nowhere in any of the current regulations does it say that a period of less than 24 hours shall be regarded as a full 24-hour period.
The word ‘within’ is the key to the daily rest as it tells the driver that they must fit in a daily rest ‘within’ a particular time frame - in this case, 24 hours.

I though we had settled this question - HERE

[205]

note to self : must read all posts and check for changes to question

i did learn something new and that is,
if you add 6 hours to the weekly rest to make it 69 hours, he would have been fine as it would have counted as 2 weekly rest periods…a 45 and a 24 and each one could have been added to different fixed weeks

[mike-c]

ROG:
If a regulation had said -
A new 24-hour period will start after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period and driver shall have taken a new daily rest period within that 24-hour period.
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period
That would be different as it links them together.

Strange? Thats almost exactly what it does say. Admittedly it doesn’t use the term “a new”, but seeing as you can’t start an old 24 hour period i reckon you could take it as gospel that it is a new one.

ROG:
I though we had settled this question - HERE

We didn’t settle the question at all. All we done is find out that VOSA are incorrectly interpretting the rules, so they will allow seven shifts in one week. Thats fine, i don’t see to many people wanting to argue the case to be able to work less. The working of a sixth shift though and its timing will affect a lot of people, and it is this same misinterpretation of the rules that may be likeley to end them up in court, when they are not guilty of anything. Or it may prevent them from taking on that extra Saturday shift in the mistaken idea they are breaking the rules when they are not. NOWHERE apart from VOSA, your’s and a few others quotes does it say or imply 144 hours as a limit.
I’m not even going to discuss the meaning of 24 hour period, its been done to death. And its been legally defined, and as such is listed in the CURRENT regulations. Not from one case, but TWO.
Also i’m aware due to a very brief conversation that the rulings i am refering to did clarify the difference between a ‘driving period’ and a ‘daily driving period’ in the case of split daily rests. That does not detract from any of the above.
The way i see it is this…i have to work with the regs, and its important that i know and understand them.Due to this recent question arising it has shown a glaring error in the advice given. You want to win an argument, and VOSA/DfT do not want to re print all their advice leaflets.
Explain in practical terms what this advice from the current DfT guide to working timemeans…

A weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be counted in either week but not in both.
However, a rest period of at least 69 hours in total may be counted as two back-to-back weekly
rests (e.g. a 45-hour weekly rest followed by 24 hours), provided that the driver does not exceed
144 hours’ work either before or after the rest period in question.

Also in their examples of working days, why is every day 24 hours? i.e work 13 hours and 11 hours rest equals 24 hours, work 15 hours and nine hour rest equals 24 hours, then a split rest 24 hour example. Why no explanation of working nine hours and taking nine hours off or 11 hours off, or hey, lets go mad !!! 13 hours off. I’m certainly no hours expert, i havn’t the first clue about ferry rests, movements, double manning or a whole load of other stuff. But what i do know is how many days i can work, how many hours i can do, how many hours i can drive and when i need a weekly rest. The errors are so glaringly obvious that i have given the subject this much of my time so far, also another member ,Scotchbaz, feels so strongly over it that we should do something active about it like contact our MP’s.
I usually only work Monday to Friday, occasionally run in on a Saturday morning. But i’m that confident i’m correct that if i can get a saturday evening shift somewhere i’ll do it. And turn myself over to VOSA and see what they wanna do. I wouldn’t even use a solicitor.

[rog]

Mike-C:
All we done is find out that VOSA are incorrectly interpretting the rules

Only in your opinion to which you are entitled to.

As for the greater majority, we will stick to what is written and enforced.