Weekly rest stupidty

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

Or maybe I am stupid.

Lets say you work Monday-Friday doing 8pm to 10pm as a cleaner for example.
On the weekends your hgv driving say 9 hours each day.

^ This is technically illegal right?

Even though you are only doing a combined 28 hours a week.
Or lets say you only do Sunday so your hours are only 19 hours a week, yet you can only do that once every fortnight because you have to make up your reduced weekly rest?

I’m not saying this is a typical case but am I correct? If so it seems pretty stupid.

2

Yes it is correct and I agree it seems stupid but it’s not the only strange thing about the regulations.
How odd is it that you can legally knock yourself out ■■■■■■■ heavy boxes around a warehouse for 1.5 hours then drive for 4.5 hours but you can’t legally drive for 4.5 hours then do paperwork for 5 minutes.

The regulations are far from perfect but until the EU bureaucrats wake up they’re what you have to work to.

Sent from my mobile via Tapatalk.

3

I find your whole question ridiculous,

What right has the Government or other Authority have to dictate what part time job you can do. Providing its not driving related it should be of no matter to anyone but you.

Besides as the UK is no longer in Brexit, why do you worry about European Rules.

4

Sabretooth:
I find your whole question ridiculous,

What right has the Government or other Authority have to dictate what part time job you can do. Providing its not driving related it should be of no matter to anyone but you.

Besides as the UK is no longer in Brexit, why do you worry about European Rules.

First of all every existing EU law was signed into UK law on the date we left as part of the Withdrawal Act.

Secondly they have a right to dictate because driving a 44 tonne lorry when you’ve not had sufficient rest is a dangerous thing. Do you think you’d be still fit to drive at the end of a 15hr shift if you’d done a 4hr part time job just before you started so had been on the go for over 20 hrs including your commuting time?

5

tachograph:
Yes it is correct and I agree it seems stupid but it’s not the only strange thing about the regulations.
How odd is it that you can legally knock yourself out ■■■■■■■ heavy boxes around a warehouse for 1.5 hours then drive for 4.5 hours but you can’t legally drive for 4.5 hours then do paperwork for 5 minutes.

The regulations are far from perfect but until the EU bureaucrats wake up they’re what you have to work to.

Sent from my mobile via Tapatalk.

I’m pleased all these well thought out drivers hours rules and regs are there to protect us and are there primarily for our welfare,.whilst being prioritised on road safety.

Being allowed to (and actually in most cases expected to) work in excess of 70+ hours, doing 15 hour days with 9 hours rest 3x a week , mostly consecutively , and continuously, week after week, whilst in charge of 44 tonnes on busy roads certainly illustrates these 3 points of main concern perfectly. :neutral_face:

6

If your hobby is gardening, you can spend 12 hrs on each day of the weekend and hop into a truck, on Monday morning, fresh as a daisy, because those 12 hrs were relaxing at your hobby. However, should you do the same thing next weekend, at your neighbour’s place and he bung you a drink or two, it becomes fatiguing rather than rejuvenating.
Whatever rules are settled upon, there will be a circumstance that makes a mockery of it.
We get “reasonable” use of a prime mover during rest periods, for personal use. Comes in handy when you have to take a 24hr break away from home.

7

Star down under.:
We get “reasonable” use of a prime mover during rest periods, for personal use. Comes in handy when you have to take a 24hr break away from home.

That would be a brilliant idea if say weekended abroad, be able to use the unit as a car, run into town, …or pretend to be a tourist, :smiley: .as I did visiting battlefield and war sites…
No different to time spent driving your car at home on a weekend.
In less pedantic authoritarian days we could do just that. :bulb:

8

Too add more stupidity to it.

I believe you can be in the Army Reserves and work up to 35 hours on the weekend and still claim to have had your weekly rest to be ready to go on the Monday. (Actually knew a guy who did this)

I think a similar rule is in place for reserve firefighters but not sure.

■■■■ all to do with ‘safety’ all on what suits the government.

9

Star down under.:
Whatever rules are settled upon, there will be a circumstance that makes a mockery of it.

Absolutely.
Rules need to be simple and clear…given the confusion about existing rules, introducing more exceptions will make nothing easier.

And although 2 hours daily might seem like very little, where does one draw the line?
3hrs? 4hrs? 8hrs?
Even if 2 hrs, some-one will be working 2hrs 5mins and feel hard done by, or 2hrs 55mins or…

Sabretooth:
Besides as the UK is no longer in Brexit, why do you worry about European Rules.

Don`t fret Truss may be binning EU rules and regs…
thetimes.co.uk/article/trus … -3dmpf0gfg

10

No more 35hr CPC?

11

tachograph:
Yes it is correct and I agree it seems stupid but it’s not the only strange thing about the regulations.
How odd is it that you can legally knock yourself out ■■■■■■■ heavy boxes around a warehouse for 1.5 hours then drive for 4.5 hours but you can’t legally drive for 4.5 hours then do paperwork for 5 minutes.

The regulations are far from perfect but until the EU bureaucrats wake up they’re what you have to work to.

Or abandon EU regs and move to a domestic regs regime that’s made fit for purpose and make a deal that we’ll recognise EU regs for EU reg trucks running here so long as the EU recognises UK domestic regs for UK reg trucks running there.
Bearing in mind that the O licence issuing TC office is the ultimate enforcer over any infringements anyway.

12

Franglais:
Absolutely.
Rules need to be simple and clear…given the confusion about existing rules, introducing more exceptions will make nothing easier.

And although 2 hours daily might seem like very little, where does one draw the line?
3hrs? 4hrs? 8hrs?
Even if 2 hrs, some-one will be working 2hrs 5mins and feel hard done by, or 2hrs 55mins or…

I think the simple solution is just to have a hard cap on weekly working time. Scrap the POA nonsense. 60 hour week max. No 48 hour average over what is it a 26 week period… too confusing. No reduced daily rests either and scrap the weekly rests.
So I’d keep the 15 hour a day working max. 10 hours driving a day max. Just do not go over 60 hours working a week altogether.
You can change the 60 to 50 or 48 or whatever. I’m not saying my suggestions are correct or right all I am advocating for is simplifying the current system.

13

PaddyTheLorryDriver:
No more 35hr CPC?

I’d consider scrapping it in favor of in house training. say 35 hours with an in house trainer/instructor/mentor whatever every 4 years. Most large companies have them and if they don’t then they can just hire a driver that is ‘cpc’ trained to train the driver. With a much larger focus on out on the road training. i.e 20% classroom and 80% driving.

Benefit of this is it would mean actual drivers are training drivers and would create more jobs for drivers.

Practicality wise? ■■■■■ knows. I just thought it up this second. But I’ve learnt way more from other drivers than from some guy in pointy shoes who has never even sat in a truck teaching me how to improve my MPG.

14

adam277:
Too add more stupidity to it.

I believe you can be in the Army Reserves and work up to 35 hours on the weekend and still claim to have had your weekly rest to be ready to go on the Monday. (Actually knew a guy who did this)

I think a similar rule is in place for reverse firefighters but not sure.

[zb] all to do with ‘safety’ all on what suits the government.

Would that be a pyromaniac? :wink:

15

Id personally/And I have in the past would just continue to work as agency driver on the weekend so long as ‘tacho’ shows its clean no one bats a eye lid. - unless you do kill someone, then maybe investigation on how im getting 2 sets of wages thru the bank, but i know my ability and i will just nap/coffee but I wouldnt even bother working if i was tired

^ ^ we live in a woke world, so those are my views dont copy me okay…

16

PaddyTheLorryDriver:
No more 35hr CPC?

The DCPC itself is going to stay, that’s definite, it won’t be replaced by unverified in-house training for a number of reasons.

However… DVSA put out a consultation, which has now closed, asking training providers and others, for their opinions, supposedly they are currently mulling over what changes might by made.

Like most people I’d definitely like to see it shortened from it’s current 7 hour blocks/35 hour total, but some people, i.e. the self-appointed “experts” who claim to be well-in on DVSA consultations (I’m very sceptical of these “walts”) believe this may result in implication of pass or fail exams.

Franglais would seem to be the one to ask about this but I understand FIMO, the french equivalent of DCPC is also valid for five years and is 35 hours duration to re-validate, and my current understanding is that it has pass or fail exams even after the initial set of exams - happily stand to be corrected if this has changed.

As for Truss… Assuming she wins as most punters are predicting, I reckon she’ll be gunning for a resurgence of “traditional Conservative values” ie Victorian-age values, with workers cap-in-hand, properly “in their place” and pleading for things in the style of Uriah Heep, being " ever so 'umble" :unamused:

Which should be a gift to Kier Starmer, but only if he can manage to grow a backbone.

I can see her putting WTD/RTD in her crosshairs ASAP. I don’t think it’ll make much difference to the haulage industry though, as this, in contrast to most other sectors, has seemingly managed to convince a lot of drivers that having more than the barest minimum of breaks and rests is somehow a slur on your masculinity and to be avoided at all costs.

17

adam277:
I’d consider scrapping it in favor of in house training. say 35 hours with an in house trainer/instructor/mentor whatever every 4 years. Most large companies have them and if they don’t then they can just hire a driver that is ‘cpc’ trained to train the driver. With a much larger focus on out on the road training. i.e 20% classroom and 80% driving.

One reason why that wouldn’t happen is that most drivers are fine with the actual driving part of the job, its “all the other stuff” ie the classroom stuff, they aren’t so fine with.

A second reason is cost-effectiveness
Potentially, a large company might be able to IHT, but most operators aren’t large companies, don’t have in house training, many don’t even have a full time TM, many rely on ETMs like myself.

As an ETM I struggle to get my client to stick his hand in his pocket just to pay for his drivers to do a bog-standard classroom DCPC
HIM: Why should I? It’s their responsibility
ME: True, but DVSA “expect” you to pay for it, or they’ll “mark you down” when they come to inspect the OC
HIM: So?
ME: Fine, just remember I don’t have to stay as your ETM, you can go back to looking for someone else, but I will have to give the TC a reason why I resigned…
HIM: grumble grumble…

Now, substitute one Saturday DCPC ticking that box for 12 drivers, with me, or a hired in trainer at extra expense, spending several Saturdays taking each of the 12 out on the road in rigids and artics, using up precious diesel, with no loads being shifted, because this is 95% a Monday to Friday job.

I’m not going to sacrifice my weekday TM work to do the IHT, because the TC is only interested in my TM responsibilities, and the hired in trainer will be putting candidates through their C or C+E driving tests Monday to Friday, so they’re not going to sacrifice that either.

18

Zac_A:

adam277:
I’d consider scrapping it in favor of in house training. say 35 hours with an in house trainer/instructor/mentor whatever every 4 years. Most large companies have them and if they don’t then they can just hire a driver that is ‘cpc’ trained to train the driver. With a much larger focus on out on the road training. i.e 20% classroom and 80% driving.

One reason why that wouldn’t happen is that most drivers are fine with the actual driving part of the job, its “all the other stuff” ie the classroom stuff, they aren’t so fine with.

A second reason is cost-effectiveness
Potentially, a large company might be able to IHT, but most operators aren’t large companies, don’t have in house training, many don’t even have a full time TM, many rely on ETMs like myself.

As an ETM I struggle to get my client to stick his hand in his pocket just to pay for his drivers to do a bog-standard classroom DCPC
HIM: Why should I? It’s their responsibility
ME: True, but DVSA “expect” you to pay for it, or they’ll “mark you down” when they come to inspect the OC
HIM: So?
ME: Fine, just remember I don’t have to stay as your ETM, you can go back to looking for someone else, but I will have to give the TC a reason why I resigned…
HIM: grumble grumble…

Now, substitute one Saturday DCPC ticking that box for 12 drivers, with me, or a hired in trainer at extra expense, spending several Saturdays taking each of the 12 out on the road in rigids and artics, using up precious diesel, with no loads being shifted, because this is 95% a Monday to Friday job.

I’m not going to sacrifice my weekday TM work to do the IHT, because the TC is only interested in my TM responsibilities, and the hired in trainer will be putting candidates through their C or C+E driving tests Monday to Friday, so they’re not going to sacrifice that either.

I wonder how many CPC modules are driving related. I remember taking a few on load security. Use of tail lifts etc.
Health and safety while unloading. All this can be demonstrated while a ‘trainer’ is out on the road with a driver doing his regular round.

I don’t give a ■■■■ what the ‘boss’ or employer thinks. I’d sooner shift the responsibility of the ‘cpc’ training to the employer anyway over the employee.

19

adam277:

PaddyTheLorryDriver:
No more 35hr CPC?

I’d consider scrapping it in favor of in house training. say 35 hours with an in house trainer/instructor/mentor whatever every 4 years. Most large companies have them and if they don’t then they can just hire a driver that is ‘cpc’ trained to train the driver. With a much larger focus on out on the road training. i.e 20% classroom and 80% driving.

Benefit of this is it would mean actual drivers are training drivers and would create more jobs for drivers.

Practicality wise? [zb] knows. I just thought it up this second. But I’ve learnt way more from other drivers than from some guy in pointy shoes who has never even sat in a truck teaching me how to improve my MPG.

In house training?
If the current DCPC is a mere tick-box exercise, what would that be like? From good operators to back-street cowboys?
How would changing employers work? Agency drivers on for multiple operators?
There are ways around it, but it isn`t so easy.

However the quality of DCPC is very variable. Both v good and v bad out there.

Zac_A:
Franglais would seem to be the one to ask about this but I understand FIMO, the french equivalent of DCPC is also valid for five years and is 35 hours duration to re-validate, and my current understanding is that it has pass or fail exams even after the initial set of exams - happily stand to be corrected if this has changed.

I don`t know, but that is my understanding too.

Zac_A:
As for Truss… Assuming she wins as most punters are predicting, I reckon she’ll be gunning for a resurgence of “traditional Conservative values” ie Victorian-age values, with workers cap-in-hand, properly “in their place” and pleading for things in the style of Uriah Heep, being " ever so 'umble"

Those awful EU rules about paying holidays based on actual pay, not just basic? The complicated way that agency workers get the same rights as full timers? The way hours are averaged so that workers aren`t effectively “laid off” on zero hours if work goes slack?

Yes these “EU red-tape” issues put the brakes on the UK economy and need to be offloaded, so that we can return to the good ole days, when workers would gather at the factory gates to ask for work that day.
Nothing to do with profit taking for shareholders, at the expense of under investment in plant. UK workers are just plain idle.
Just look at the UK productivity figures, and then ask a Mail or Express journalist what it means. Or even ask Truss.
They all have the same understanding of economics and productivity…none. (At least, none that they admit to)

20

adam277:
I wonder how many CPC modules are driving related. I remember taking a few on load security. Use of tail lifts etc.
Health and safety while unloading. All this can be demonstrated while a ‘trainer’ is out on the road with a driver doing his regular round.

I don’t give a [zb] what the ‘boss’ or employer thinks. I’d sooner shift the responsibility of the ‘cpc’ training to the employer anyway over the employee.

They all have to be grounded in, and referenced to, the DCPC syllabus (see gov.uk for details and read it yourself)

You’ve completely ignored the practical, logistical side of implementing training “while out on the road” which I had painstakingly spelled out in detail, showing how it is both expensive and impractical.

As for not giving a zb for what employers think, it doesn’t matter because the employers don’t set the rules: DfT/DVSA/JAUPT etc do set the rules and as should be fairly obvious, they they aren’t going to give a zb what you think.