this may well apply to to other manafacturers but my problem is with a 57 plate volvo. if i take a 30 min break and then a 15 min break it wipes the slate clean which as we all know is not right. the result is that later on in the shift i need to take a 45 min break instead of 30 mins. i suspect the same would apply to 3 x 15 min breaks. i hope i have explained this properly and i await your thoughts
Not on digi card but as your explaining your not allowed to take a 30min break then a 15min, got to be other way round. Also the three 15min break has gone
Tarmac duck:
this may well apply to to other manafacturers but my problem is with a 57 plate volvo. if i take a 30 min break and then a 15 min break it wipes the slate clean which as we all know is not right. the result is that later on in the shift i need to take a 45 min break instead of 30 mins. i suspect the same would apply to 3 x 15 min breaks. i hope i have explained this properly and i await your thoughts
The digital tachograph came into use before the break regulations were changed and so will recognise breaks in multiples of 15 minutes (old regulations).
I don’t really understand your problem because if you have your breaks in the correct order you shouldn’t have a problem with the tachograph resetting, If you have your breaks in the wrong order it’s hardly the tachographs fault is it, you seem to know the break regulations so why take them in the wrong order.
If you were using an analogue tachograph you would be running illegal if you had the breaks in the wrong order so in that sense you could say that the digital tachograph is helping you by stopping you from not complying with the regulations 
Sorry If I’m misunderstanding your post.
Breaks can be taken either in one block of 45 minutes or split with the first part being no less than 15 minutes and the second part being no less that 30 minutes.
The digital tacho software hasn’t been updated to take account of the new (as of 11 April 2007) rules. I believe that it’s the same on all digital tachos.
tachograph:
I don’t really understand your problem because if you have your breaks in the correct order you shouldn’t have a problem with the tachograph resetting, If you have your breaks in the wrong order it’s hardly the tachographs fault is it, you seem to know the break regulations so why take them in the wrong order.
You might have had a 20-minute break whilst someone was loading you, and then intended to have a 30-minute break later on, but had to cut it short to 25 minutes (e.g. got told to move for whatever reason). In this case, the tacho will start a new 4.5-hour driving period, but you’re still in the first one, so unless you now take a full 45-minute rest, it’ll now be wrong for the rest of the day.
tachograph:
If you were using an analogue tachograph you would be running illegal if you had the breaks in the wrong order so in that sense you could say that the digital tachograph is helping you by stopping you from not complying with the regulations
In this case, if you follow what the tacho tells you (i.e. you’ve started a new 4.5-hour period), then it’s encouraging you to break the rules…
tachograph:
I don’t really understand your problem because if you have your breaks in the correct order you shouldn’t have a problem with the tachograph resetting, If you have your breaks in the wrong order it’s hardly the tachographs fault is it, you seem to know the break regulations so why take them in the wrong order.
Yes but there’s nothing that says you’re not allowed to take breaks additional to those required for the tacho laws in order to, for example, comply with the WTD or reduce the number of hours of working time when you don’t have the information needed to be able to legally claim POA. There’s nothing in the rules that says you can’t, for example, do this:
1h driving
30min break
2h driving
15min break
1h driving
30min break
4h driving
However in that example 30min before you finish driving the tacho will start shouting that you’ve gone over hours when in fact you’ve done nothing of the sort.
Another possibility is that you take a 30min break and then go to take a second one but for some reason you get interrupted after 20min. At that point you decide that as you’ve been disturbed you might as well do some more driving within your first 4.5h driving period before parking up elsewhere for your 30mins, but of course the truck incorrectly thinks you’ve started a second 4.5h driving period which could cause problems later on.
Of course any up to date analysis software will correctly identify that it’s legal but it’s still annoying to have the tacho telling you that you’re over hours as you’re driving along.
Paul
yes tachogragh i do know the rules regarding drivers hours the point is i believe that the installed equipment should be upto date aswell. i am free to take breaks as i wish and i expect the tacho to only record legal breaks.
Tarmac duck:
the point is i believe that the installed equipment should be upto date aswell.
I’m afraid that we live in the real world (well, most of us…)
very good explanation thanks paul maybe i did not explain it properly. i hope to speak to some wizkidd from volvo tommorrow.
MrFlibble:
I’m afraid that we live in the real world (well, most of us…)
True enough but in my view incorrect information is worse than no information at all. If it isn’t going to be kept accurate then IMO they would probably have been better off not bothering putting it there in the first place.
Paul
repton:
MrFlibble:
I’m afraid that we live in the real world (well, most of us…)True enough but in my view incorrect information is worse than no information at all. If it isn’t going to be kept accurate then IMO they would probably have been better off not bothering putting it there in the first place.
Except that the specification for the digital tacho was probably written before the rule change was even proposed.
repton:
tachograph:
I don’t really understand your problem because if you have your breaks in the correct order you shouldn’t have a problem with the tachograph resetting, If you have your breaks in the wrong order it’s hardly the tachographs fault is it, you seem to know the break regulations so why take them in the wrong order.Yes but there’s nothing that says you’re not allowed to take breaks additional to those required for the tacho laws in order to, for example, comply with the WTD or reduce the number of hours of working time when you don’t have the information needed to be able to legally claim POA. There’s nothing in the rules that says you can’t, for example, do this:
1h driving
30min break
2h driving
15min break
1h driving
30min break
4h drivingHowever in that example 30min before you finish driving the tacho will start shouting that you’ve gone over hours when in fact you’ve done nothing of the sort.
Another possibility is that you take a 30min break and then go to take a second one but for some reason you get interrupted after 20min. At that point you decide that as you’ve been disturbed you might as well do some more driving within your first 4.5h driving period before parking up elsewhere for your 30mins, but of course the truck incorrectly thinks you’ve started a second 4.5h driving period which could cause problems later on.
Of course any up to date analysis software will correctly identify that it’s legal but it’s still annoying to have the tacho telling you that you’re over hours as you’re driving along.
Paul
The regulations state that when you’ve had a total of 45 minutes break the driving time is reset to 4.5 hours, as already said the digital tachograph came in before the regulations were changed and were not designed to allow for upgrading to the latest regulations.
As far as wtd breaks are concerned, driving breaks count for the wtd and vise versa.
Tarmac duck:
yes tachogragh i do know the rules regarding drivers hours the point is i believe that the installed equipment should be upto date aswell. i am free to take breaks as i wish and i expect the tacho to only record legal breaks.
Sorry m8 but your not free to record breaks however you wish.
The regulations state that after 45 minutes of break the driving time is reset to 4.5 hours.
As far as the equipment is concerned I agree that it should have been designed with the ability to upgrade to the latest regulations, but that’s a different story
tachograph:
The regulations state that when you’ve had a total of 45 minutes break the driving time is reset to 4.5 hours.In the example you give after the 15 minute break the driving time would be reset to 4.5 hours, you then drive for a further total of 5 hours with only a 30 minute break so your outside of the regulations.
I assume that you’re talking about why the digital tacho is wrong? It appears that you’re suggesting that the 15-minute break completes the 45-minute break requirement, in accordance with the current regulations. It doesn’t. The first 4.5-hour driving period ends at the end of the second 1-hour driving period (with a total of 4 hours of driving done). The 15-minute break doesn’t complete the 45-minute break, because you can only split into a 15 and 30, not a 30 and a 15.
PS: You’ve edited it. That’s cheating
MrFlibble:
tachograph:
The regulations state that when you’ve had a total of 45 minutes break the driving time is reset to 4.5 hours.In the example you give after the 15 minute break the driving time would be reset to 4.5 hours, you then drive for a further total of 5 hours with only a 30 minute break so your outside of the regulations.
I assume that you’re talking about why the digital tacho is wrong? It appears that you’re suggesting that the 15-minute break completes the 45-minute break requirement, in accordance with the current regulations. It doesn’t. The first 4.5-hour driving period ends at the end of the second 1-hour driving period (with a total of 4 hours of driving done). The 15-minute break doesn’t complete the 45-minute break, because you can only split into a 15 and 30, not a 30 and a 15.
I just notice my mistake and corrected it.
MrFlibble:
Except that the specification for the digital tacho was probably written before the rule change was even proposed.
That’s my point though, to design something on the basis that “the rules will never change” is incredibly bad planning. At the end of the day some of these trucks will be on the road for a couple of decades or more and to assume that in that time nothing will change is wrong IMO.
Paul
The software could prob be upgraded really fast, by plugging in a laptop and flashing the chip it uses. Would prob take a few minutes and it would be done.
No idea how it works tho but i would imagine because its a legal requirement the software prob had to be tested, agreed upon, licenced and everything else in accordance with the rules which prob took ages. So any slight changes is it really worth their while having to go through all that, then get hauilers to bring all their trucks in to get the software changed.
Even if they changed the rules to say you could only drive 4hrs before taking a break, and then the break had to be 1hr, wouldnt make much difference really because it still recording your driving time, break time etc, at the end of the day. Just means its not telling you what to do, you have to think for yourself a bit like the old analogue tachos.
repton:
That’s my point though, to design something on the basis that “the rules will never change” is incredibly bad planning. At the end of the day some of these trucks will be on the road for a couple of decades or more and to assume that in that time nothing will change is wrong IMO.
They almost certainly will be updated. However, as with everything in this sort of industry, things happen at a glacial pace. The new software specification probably has to be approved by those “up high” in Europe; the software implementation then has to be written, and exhaustively tested to try to remove all the bugs, and prove that it’s compliant with all the rules and standards.
With this sort of thing, it’s not the time taken to perform the actual upgrade of the unit that’s a problem (as Kenny1975 said) - it’s making sure that the upgrade is correct, approved, and secure.
They also have to be careful about who they allow to do upgrades - the more people that know about how the internals of the tacho work, the more likely that someone will work out how to upload an “unauthorised” modification which records incorrectly (the equivalent of a “wire” on a mechanical tacho).
TD, I presume your are referring to the Dynafleet unit (is that the name?) which takes its input from the Digital Tachograph and then drives the centre console display.
With the ‘lead’ times from when vehicles were built to when they actually went into service, there is every possibility that your vehicle is running on Version 1.whatever software, under the old rules, as opposed to any updated software. It is a ‘known’ condition.
From your example, I wouldn’t be taking an additional 45. Just a 30, and if the unit bleeped and squaked, then I’d let it. Regardless of how annoying.
It’s what appears on your card, from the Digital Tachograph, that matters. Not peripheral data incorrectly collated by an ancilliary device.
Ignore me , I’m tired and read it wrong …
Nothing to see