my m8 was telling me the other day that his company isued him a letter
telling him of the new way he has to operate his tacho.
(firm is christian salvassen)
as from monday switch to be left on cross hamers for periods driveing
and for other work
square for periods of availability
and bed for rest periods
now he tells me that the supervisors say that after 1 hour you turn the switch
to square for period of availability .!and he begins to argue if he will be paid for this time
no was the roundabout answer well he said switch will be left on cross hammers 
.
well is this it all starting ,sitting at a rdc for 3 hours and not being paid for it
after an hour ,i know the muppet road show operated like this(mrs) but i wont
(went for an interview with them walked away after less than 10 mins laughing
at the man as i closed the door)
anyway i know europe work with the cross hammers and some brittish haulage firms have a fourth needle in there tacho for off road work but all these changes if they happen th me will give me a migrane
what do u think 
[/b]
at wincanton
we have also been issued with similar instructions this week regarding settings:?
and we have also been told that they are going to install a tachscan machine in the transport office to anyilise the drivers tachos every day when we return and are debriefed, ready for the implimentation of the 48hr week in march 
I have also just received similar instructions.
I believe that they will be the instructions implimented when the WTD comes into force, in March.
What you should bear in mind (and so should your boss) is that, Paid Time and Working Time, under the WTD, are not the same thing.
Working time, under the WTD, means Time spent Driving and doing Other Work (as it always has been). These are what have to be counted towards your maximum 48hrs working time average per week.
Paid time is the above PLUS Periods Of Availability, when you are not taking a break in that POA (which you shouldn’t be doing anyway). The same as it always has been. Periods of Availability DONOT count as part of the max’ 48hrs weekly average.
In otherwords, if your boss used to pay you for waiting time, he still should.
Also, you can still work 60+ hours per week, same as before. The only difference is that, each week you will have to spend 12+hours per week on Periods of Availabilty, instead of waiting (break/rest) time.
Simon:
Also, you can still work 60+ hours per week, same as before. The only difference is that, each week you will have to spend 12+hours per week on Periods of Availabilty, instead of waiting (break/rest) time.
Simon,
That is a good, straightforward & ‘simple to understand’ way of explaining it!!
Somebody asked me about this exact situation and hours etc etc just the other day; I knew what I meant (and was trying to say) but i’m sure they went away more confussed than when they first asked!!
I don’t feel guilty though - it was the boss and he should know better!!
We have been told to put the tacho on break to show POA and we will be paid for POA the same as we are paid whilst waiting now.
During POA you should be doing no work, the bed symbol is there to show that, not the cross hammers or box symbol. Therefore is a companies tacho are checked against times of POA surely they will be incorrect. The only way to deal with companies like that is to vote with your feet.
muckles:
During POA you should be doing no work, the bed symbol is there to show that, not the cross hammers or box symbol. Therefore is a companies tacho are checked against times of POA surely they will be incorrect. The only way to deal with companies like that is to vote with your feet.
That’s not quite correct muckles. A POA is any time during which you are not actually working, but not on break either. Yeah I know, clear as mud but that’s how they define it 
You could be waiting for a phone call with your next job, or waiting to get onto a loading bay for example and they would be POAs and not breaks.
It’s not just this one company who are saying use the crossed hammers to define POAs, they are following the advice from the authorities. I would say there is more chance of your company getting into bother as they aren’t differentiating between POAs and breaks if they are telling you to keep it on ‘Bed’ for POAs.
Been driving & working on x hammers for around 3 months now!
Coffeeholic:
or waiting to get onto a loading bay for example and they would be POAs and not breaks.
Neil,
Now you’ve got me thinking that I am interpreting the PoA wrong! I would’ve said that waiting to get on a bay, which can be hours at some places, the tacho could’ve ligitimately have been on ‘rest’.
I can understand that this could be defined as PoA because you are waiting to do some work, in this case reverse onto the bay, open curtains etc.
On the flip side, as I was being paid by the hour whatever, I almost enjoyed having to wait hours just to get on a bay. As soon as the notes were in, I was back to my cab and onto the bunk! I would definately have expected this to be counted as rest - I can’t think of anything more restfull than pushing out zzzzzzzzz’s on my bunk!!
Because the company I worked for did a lot of RDC’s, and consequently a lot of hanging around waiting to tip, it wasn’t uncommon to be able to do the split rest (i.e. 16 hour days) and stay legal.
Have I missed the point here, or is it just another example of ‘clear as mud’■■
marcustandy:
Now you’ve got me thinking that I am interpreting the PoA wrong! I would’ve said that waiting to get on a bay, which can be hours at some places, the tacho could’ve ligitimately have been on ‘rest’.
A break is defined as where you can “freely dispose of your time”. If you have to be available to drive onto a bay at any moment, then you can’t freely dispose of your time, and therefore you are “on duty and available for work”. If you’re told “It’ll be at least an hour’s wait before a bay is free”, and they allow you to park up without risk of being told to move in that hour, then you can consider it a break.
The easiest way to define crossed hammers & Square is crossed hammers other work, active (Doing something) Square other work, passive (available & able to work but not doing so as I’m being left waiting again.)
I have always driven on crossed hammers & used the square as above, as sod putting the head onto break for available but not actively working. I choose when I have my break & if I have a choice of break or other work, passive, & I want my break some where else then thats where I take it.
The real problem is going to come when the charts are analysed & we have forgotten to throw the switch, as we all do from time to time. As we now a second set of recorded working hours law to comply with, everyone else can side step some of the constraints by booking hours rather than having them automatically recorded & thus there in black & white for all to see & check up with.
Yep Marcus, that is another example of ‘clear as mud.’ I also made a mistake in my earlier post as I think it is the other way round, crossed hammers for work and square for POAs but actuaaly I’m getting beyond caring and am fed up with reading through the bumf.
Another thing that muddies things Marcus that under the WTD they say time spent on a ferry is a POA but under the tacho rules it is a break. It doesn’t affect me for a few years but anyway I’m going to let the tacho rules be the main criteria for breaks etc and worry about WTD breaks POAs etc second. Tacho infringements will get you into trouble quicker and with more expense I think.
Coffeeholic:
It doesn’t affect me for a few years but anyway I’m going to let the tacho rules be the main criteria for breaks etc and worry about WTD breaks POAs etc second. Tacho infringements will get you into trouble quicker and with more expense I think.
A friend of mine who left this job to go on his own (well, conracted tipper i.e. not self-employed for WTD 
) has never been far off 48 hrs anyway. When he last spoke to the TC he was told
TC:
It’s your tacho hours i’m interested in, not the WTD.
I guess that says loads. 
I’ve been keeping a check on my hours over the last few months and I’ve been well within the WTC regs. Most of my week is driving or breaks with the odd bit of loading/unloading and other work for checking vehicle, getting fuel etc, say 4 or 5 hours a week maximum, and as you can only do an average of 45 hours driving a week keeping within the 48 hours a week average WTD thing is no great problem. With all the POA stuff I don’t think it will have much effect on long distance drivers/trampers.
I think I shall carry on as I always do and just ignore the whole bloody thing … damned penpushers should have better things to do with their time!!
If they arent going to pay you for POA tell them to get your P45 ready and stick the job up their rectal cavity!!!..
Everthing I’ve ever read on Tacho’s says that the cross hammers are not used in the UK. So we have break, work other than driving and driving.
The definition of POA is the same as the definition of break or rest, which not being engaged in any work activity, so having the tacho on break is the only way I can see of recording them. Unless I see something from an official source that says it is legal to use a different mode to record POA, which would make sense.
If I have the tacho on break whilst tipping and then decide to have break on the way home to have a bacon butty this is not a problem where I work. However I know that many work for companies who analyse every movement of their drivers and would not let them stop once they had completed their staturary breaks.
muckles:
Everthing I’ve ever read on Tacho’s says that the cross hammers are not used in the UK.
Crossed hammers can be used in the UK and indeed it even says so on the DFT website, you can check it here.
muckles:
The definition of POA is the same as the definition of break or rest, which not being engaged in any work activity,
Under the WTD the definition of a POA is not the same as a break which is why there needs to be a method of differentiating between the two on the disc.
muckles:
Unless I see something from an official source that says it is legal to use a different mode to record POA,
It is the official advice being given by the DFT to use Crossed Hammers for POAs which is about the best source you can have I would say.
Thank Coffeholic, I thought I’d been through the DFT web-site enough times to sort this out, but have now found the relevent passage. Sure they have just added it.
From the DFT web-site:
Using the tachograph to record working time:
We expect some employers will use data from tachograph records to monitor the working time of their employees. Currently, most drivers use the “on duty and available for work” switch on the tachograph to record both “other work” and “periods of availability”. However, using this switch in this way will give a misleading impression of the amount of working time (as defined under these regulations) that has been performed. If you wish to monitor working time using tachograph records, it is recommended that you instruct your employees to use the:
Cross-hammers mode for other work and for any waiting time or periods of availability1 that are not known about in advance.On-duty and available for work for periods of availability known about in advance (as defined under these regulations).
On this basis, tachograph records may be sufficient to record the working time of drivers. However, employers will need other records for those employees who, for example, do not use a tachograph on one or more days or if there are other mobile workers who are subject to these regulations (e.g. crew).
So correct me if I’m wrong, but the cross hammers should be used to record other work and POA’s were the duration is not known, so the time counts to your working time.
and Use the box symbol for POA that do not include your breaks.
(I’d prefer to use this method, to defrentiate between breaks and POA)
For years, since taking my test I’ve tried to find out why we had the cross hammers and always read and was told. "It’s not required in the UK, end of subject, now stop asking silly questions 
".
Thanks again.
We are getting ready for this at work and the more info the better, as the boss is having a meeting with the drivers soon to work out reference periods and recording working time on the new time sheet.
Having read a bit more it seems that you only need to record POA and breaks separatly on the tacho, if you are using your tacho cards to record your working time, which also means you have to keep them for 2 years instead of 1.
muckles:
If I have the tacho on break whilst tipping and then decide to have break on the way home to have a bacon butty this is not a problem where I work. However I know that many work for companies who analyse every movement of their drivers and would not let them stop once they had completed their staturary breaks.
If your boss has a problem with what Muckles does here, take your break when you feel like it, but put the switch to “other work” whilst you take it .
That will also keep the ministry man happy, because you are showing other work, rather than only driving and break 
.