Unite do it again!

[commonrail]

Carryfast:
The answer from the union’s perspective is ( should be ) who gives a zb.

IE the question is irrelevant because from the union’s point of view it’s not there to keep a loss making firm in business.If an employer can no longer afford to pay it’s workers what it owes them in real terms then it’s time for the union to advise it’s members to call it a day and start thinking about redundancy.(

I didn’t ask you the question from a unions point of view.
I asked you the question from the businesses point of view.will you not accept that it is enevitable that a loss making company will have to make cuts if it is to keep the plant running?

as for redundancy…so that`s it then…zero compromise.
you shut the gates and march off to the dole office(all be it with a few quid in yer sky)with your head held high

thats all well and good if your approaching retirement age..but what if your 30,with a young family and a mortgage :question: Ill tell you what you do…you cling on to that job as long as you can…because you know it`s still the best one(by far)in your area…and hope you make it to that magical day when you are finally dept free…and none of this ■■■■ matters.

[oldhippyandy]

If a site is supposedly making a £10,000,000 a month loss here’s a couple of points to consider
.
If this site is parts of a wider business and integral to that business then losses in one part could be counterbalanced by profits in another. It’s one business but on more than one site.

How far does the change in wages,conditions and pensions make up that shortfall ?

[viking35dp]

martyh:

weeto:
According to the press, 50% of the work force wanted to accept what was offered to save their jobs! Wether that’s true? Who knows.
They were wrong to call a strike with a 50-50 split,seems that unite had a personal vendetta against the company, because of 1 man who happens to be a union rep!

Yep correct, the ballot was split roughly 50-50 .The result was quite telling in that the 50% that voted to accept the terms where mostly the office staff ,the ones who would have the best idea of the real state of play at the company ,the ones who voted no where the ones on the “shop floor” having union reps shouting in their face at every opportunity

Interesting points to note the split inrelation to who voted for what if this is the case the reasons why office staff voted to accept they will be losing far less then their shop floor colleagues they will probably only work 9 to 5

Shop floor workers probably work shift work over a 7 day period they will lose night money weekend rates shift rates and probably much more.

Am I glad I don’t work there three years time the company will come back and make further cuts to pay pensions etc and their will be many workers regretting the decisions made as they join the race the to the bottom.

Company bosses who interestingly publicly have not said whether they have taken any cuts to pay and pensions will be organising future board meetings to determine what next to take off the workforce whilst not giving a dam whether mortgages or children can be fed.

[carryfast]

commonrail:

Carryfast:
The answer from the union’s perspective is ( should be ) who gives a zb.

IE the question is irrelevant because from the union’s point of view it’s not there to keep a loss making firm in business.If an employer can no longer afford to pay it’s workers what it owes them in real terms then it’s time for the union to advise it’s members to call it a day and start thinking about redundancy.(

I didn’t ask you the question from a unions point of view.
I asked you the question from the businesses point of view.will you not accept that it is enevitable that a loss making company will have to make cuts if it is to keep the plant running?

as for redundancy…so that`s it then…zero compromise.
you shut the gates and march off to the dole office(all be it with a few quid in yer sky)with your head held high

thats all well and good if your approaching retirement age..but what if your 30,with a young family and a mortgage :question: Ill tell you what you do…you cling on to that job as long as you can…because you know it`s still the best one(by far)in your area…and hope you make it to that magical day when you are finally dept free…and none of this [zb] matters.

I thought the topic was all about the issues applying from ( what should be ) the union’s perspective not the employers.The fact is if unions had followed your advice throughout history in ‘compromising’ with management rather than just saying put up in the form of maintaining terms and conditions or shut up shop,when all the usual ‘loss making’ excuses are wheeled out,this country’s economy,at least from the point of view of the working class,would be where it was in the early 20th century or even before.The average working class family would probably be better off if the unions had kept up that no compromise approach instead of going down the road of so called compromise based on the Thatcherite dream of weak castrated unions and employers negotiating from a position of strength.

IE if you’re 30 now with that family and a mortgage you’ll be even worse off under a regime of continuous compromise every time the guvnor says that he can’t afford to keep wages in line with price increases,than if you threaten unified strike action which in this case would ( or at least should ) have closed every refinery and docks and transport sector in the country,if he doesn’t pay up or terminates anyone’s employment.In which case the employers would have had an incentive to sort out the real reasons behind the industry’s lack of profitability ( in this case government road fuel taxation policy ) while redundancy is the worst that could happen having at least tried.Whereas under your idea it’s more likely to just set a continuous precedent of every wage demand being met by the usual we can’t afford it scenario and the eventual loss of the redundancy system.In which case that young family will be ( a lot ) worse off while the breadwinner is working for the privilege of paying for the failures of government economic policy .

[carryfast]

viking35dp:

martyh:

weeto:
According to the press, 50% of the work force wanted to accept what was offered to save their jobs! Wether that’s true? Who knows.
They were wrong to call a strike with a 50-50 split,seems that unite had a personal vendetta against the company, because of 1 man who happens to be a union rep!

Yep correct, the ballot was split roughly 50-50 .The result was quite telling in that the 50% that voted to accept the terms where mostly the office staff ,the ones who would have the best idea of the real state of play at the company ,the ones who voted no where the ones on the “shop floor” having union reps shouting in their face at every opportunity

Interesting points to note the split inrelation to who voted for what if this is the case the reasons why office staff voted to accept they will be losing far less then their shop floor colleagues they will probably only work 9 to 5

Shop floor workers probably work shift work over a 7 day period they will lose night money weekend rates shift rates and probably much more.

Am I glad I don’t work there three years time the company will come back and make further cuts to pay pensions etc and their will be many workers regretting the decisions made as they join the race the to the bottom.

Company bosses who interestingly publicly have not said whether they have taken any cuts to pay and pensions will be organising future board meetings to determine what next to take off the workforce whilst not giving a dam whether mortgages or children can be fed.

^ This.

[carryfast]

oldhippyandy:
If a site is supposedly making a £10,000,000 a month loss here’s a couple of points to consider
.
If this site is parts of a wider business and integral to that business then losses in one part could be counterbalanced by profits in another. It’s one business but on more than one site.

How far does the change in wages,conditions and pensions make up that shortfall ?

While it’s obvious that no union worth it’s salt should trust figures given by employers,it also seems obvious that every part of the uk/european road fuel products sector is subsidising the failures of the uk economic policy and the bs ‘green’ taxes policy.It’s therefore being bled dry by taxation in which the profit margins on what’s left after the tax system has taken it’s cut are non existent.

[silver_surfer]

hammer:
Unions are a fantastic idea, set up centuries ago to protect the most vulnerable workers who lived in utter squalor and who were genuinely oppressed.

They still have a place in modern society but in places like Grangemouth where the plant workers are earning far more than those in their community and where jobs are in desperately short supply their overly-aggressive stance was suicidal. If you live in Grangemouth, working in the plant is a bloody good job. Losing 10% of that good job is better than losing all of it.

The unions main problem is that they are corrupted by power-mad little men who are obsessed with their own self-importance. It’s called Arthur Scargill syndrome . They need to pick their fights better and occasionally lift their heads from out of the sand and look at the world around them. This often means looking globally and a lot of these blokes just don’t have it in em’ I’m afraid.

Have a virtual pint Hammer.

[simon]

Silver_Surfer:

hammer:
Unions are a fantastic idea, set up centuries ago to protect the most vulnerable workers who lived in utter squalor and who were genuinely oppressed.

They still have a place in modern society but in places like Grangemouth where the plant workers are earning far more than those in their community and where jobs are in desperately short supply their overly-aggressive stance was suicidal. If you live in Grangemouth, working in the plant is a bloody good job. Losing 10% of that good job is better than losing all of it.

The unions main problem is that they are corrupted by power-mad little men who are obsessed with their own self-importance. It’s called Arthur Scargill syndrome . They need to pick their fights better and occasionally lift their heads from out of the sand and look at the world around them. This often means looking globally and a lot of these blokes just don’t have it in em’ I’m afraid.

Have a virtual pint Hammer.

Have 2

[manic-merc]

Very interesting comments and a very lively debate. I reflected on this and came to realise that unions have, ruined the UK car industry, coal mining, steel industry, railways, virtually all manufacturing and heavy industry, made a concerted effort to ■■■■ up transport in all its various guises and have now cocked up one of the biggest employees in Scotland where un-skilled workers are reportedly earning £40k a year. By the way, the convenor who led them into this debacle resigned yesterday prior to facing a disciplinary hearing today, right on bruvva!

Now with all this in mind, how are they a force for good and improvement?, cos I can only see one thread between all these industries, unions. Unfortunately, area convenors, area chairs, Len himself and all the sheep that buy into the propaganda are like born again Christians. No matter how strong the evidence, how overwhelmingly preposterous the claims and how much history will prove otherwise they will still always believe…however Christians do it with a smile and sing you a hymn.

The Tolpuddle martyrs had a great idea and I’m all for protecting the week, vulnerable and innocent. The NSPCC do this and are extremely underfunded, but they have no political agenda. The RSPCA do this and are very well funded, but again have no political agenda.

In a way, these ‘union’ people do earn respect for standing by their convictions but also deserve our pity and ridicule for being so deluded.

[carryfast]

manic-merc:
Very interesting comments and a very lively debate. I reflected on this and came to realise that unions have, ruined the UK car industry, coal mining, steel industry, railways, virtually all manufacturing and heavy industry, made a concerted effort to ■■■■ up transport in all its various guises and have now cocked up one of the biggest employees in Scotland where un-skilled workers are reportedly earning £40k a year. By the way, the convenor who led them into this debacle resigned yesterday prior to facing a disciplinary hearing today, right on bruvva!

Now with all this in mind, how are they a force for good and improvement?, cos I can only see one thread between all these industries, unions. Unfortunately, area convenors, area chairs, Len himself and all the sheep that buy into the propaganda are like born again Christians. No matter how strong the evidence, how overwhelmingly preposterous the claims and how much history will prove otherwise they will still always believe…however Christians do it with a smile and sing you a hymn.

The Tolpuddle martyrs had a great idea and I’m all for protecting the week, vulnerable and innocent. The NSPCC do this and are extremely underfunded, but they have no political agenda. The RSPCA do this and are very well funded, but again have no political agenda.

In a way, these ‘union’ people do earn respect for standing by their convictions but also deserve our pity and ridicule for being so deluded.

It seems obvious that you’re trying to dress up bs political dogma as fact.When the country’s economic growth figures when we had strong unions keeping incomes in line with prices as opposed to since the Callaghan and Thatcherite dream wrecked it all prove you wrong.

[manic-merc]

we had strong unions keeping incomes in line with prices as opposed to since the Callaghan and Thatcherite dream wrecked it all prove you wrong.

Apologies, of course it wasn’t the miners unions who fought for and forced in a 15% pay rise in the 70’s? which made British coal uncompetitive? it wasn’t the TGWU that had mass walkouts in the British car industry in the 70’s demanding better wages etc, but in return supplying p*** poor and shoddy workmanship, these two factors buggered that industry?

The point I’m making is this, the fundamental idea behind unions is sound and a great thing. To be abused by an employer and rebelling against that could lead to deportation to Australia, ‘loom breaking’ was a capital offence.

The problem is from the 50’s onwards when they still had a modicum of respectability, they gained too much power and influence to the point the tail wagged the dog. I have sat in branch meetings where you are told how to vote. I have sat next to guys with two cars 5 bedroom houses, a time share somewhere sunny etc and they profess to be socialists. I have watched men, fleece their employers and the state for money and benefits wholes hiding behind a union.
You are either a socialist or not, you cannot pick and choose which parts you like and which you don’t. in employment, and before anyone asks I am employed, you are responsible for your actions. If you ■■■■ up at work or you fail in your duties, be a man hold your hands and take it on the chin. Not run off to some loon who has read a book and makes lots of wild promises about how he will save you bruvva!

I once got a job because my name was top of the union register, no interview nothing. Branch chairman phoned and told me to report at a certain place on Monday morning. No one was interested that I could do the job, only that my name was top of the list. At least 20 of my fellow ‘drivers’ I wouldn’t have trusted with a wheel barrow. But they couldn’t be sacked because the union would not allow it.

Unite are not interested in the worker, they have a political agenda, Falkirk and Len’s row with the Labour party et al! It is a normal working man and woman’s money funding this calamity. Think about it, Unite are always in the news for negative reasons, vote rigging, demands for strike action, demands for concessions from the Labour party. And all these members follow like sheep, pay their money and the only thing they get in return is embarrassment and ridicule.

I shall continue attending branch meetings, haven’t paid any subs for months but no one checks. Have a cup of what passes for tea (however just like Unite its weak and p*** poor), and listen to the delusions of grandeur, call to arms, pathetic strategies, outdated concepts, half arsed campaigns, stand up and fight rhetoric and have a good old laugh. Come on down, plenty of chairs, get there early enough and you can get on the committee (more committee members than bruvvas normally!)

"The peoples flag, is deepest red…

[carryfast]

manic-merc:

we had strong unions keeping incomes in line with prices as opposed to since the Callaghan and Thatcherite dream wrecked it all prove you wrong.

Apologies, of course it wasn’t the miners unions who fought for and forced in a 15% pay rise in the 70’s? which made British coal uncompetitive? it wasn’t the TGWU that had mass walkouts in the British car industry in the 70’s demanding better wages etc, but in return supplying p*** poor and shoddy workmanship, these two factors buggered that industry?

The point I’m making is this, the fundamental idea behind unions is sound and a great thing. To be abused by an employer and rebelling against that could lead to deportation to Australia, ‘loom breaking’ was a capital offence.

The problem is from the 50’s onwards when they still had a modicum of respectability, they gained too much power and influence to the point the tail wagged the dog. I have sat in branch meetings where you are told how to vote. I have sat next to guys with two cars 5 bedroom houses, a time share somewhere sunny etc and they profess to be socialists. I have watched men, fleece their employers and the state for money and benefits wholes hiding behind a union.
You are either a socialist or not, you cannot pick and choose which parts you like and which you don’t. in employment, and before anyone asks I am employed, you are responsible for your actions. If you ■■■■ up at work or you fail in your duties, be a man hold your hands and take it on the chin. Not run off to some loon who has read a book and makes lots of wild promises about how he will save you bruvva!

I once got a job because my name was top of the union register, no interview nothing. Branch chairman phoned and told me to report at a certain place on Monday morning. No one was interested that I could do the job, only that my name was top of the list. At least 20 of my fellow ‘drivers’ I wouldn’t have trusted with a wheel barrow. But they couldn’t be sacked because the union would not allow it.

Unite are not interested in the worker, they have a political agenda, Falkirk and Len’s row with the Labour party et al! It is a normal working man and woman’s money funding this calamity. Think about it, Unite are always in the news for negative reasons, vote rigging, demands for strike action, demands for concessions from the Labour party. And all these members follow like sheep, pay their money and the only thing they get in return is embarrassment and ridicule.

I shall continue attending branch meetings, haven’t paid any subs for months but no one checks. Have a cup of what passes for tea (however just like Unite its weak and p*** poor), and listen to the delusions of grandeur, call to arms, pathetic strategies, outdated concepts, half arsed campaigns, stand up and fight rhetoric and have a good old laugh. Come on down, plenty of chairs, get there early enough and you can get on the committee (more committee members than bruvvas normally!)

"The peoples flag, is deepest red…

You still seem to be unable to get your head around the fact that the wage claims of the 1970’s were all ‘reactive’ to price led inflation not vice versa.While the difference is after the Tory dream won out that is now impossible which is why prices are running ahead of wages with no way of getting those wages back in line and economic growth figures to prove it.While in the case of politics the Tories have done more to further the interests of the Chinese Communist Party than the Communist infiltrators in the unions could ever have dreamed of.

[g8ymw]

The wage claims were copycat claims chasing the miners. Nothing to do with prices.
3 things caused price rises. 1972 miners strike. America selling the vast bulk of their grain harvest to Russia and the 1974 miners strike.
Those without industrial clout were better off AFTER Labour got kicked out (I know I was)
The Union leaders were too political and at least Maggie made the unions answerable to their membership instead of the other way .
(Alright she made the mistake of using interest rates to control inflation but if your competitors do not, when the economy turns around you are swamped with foreign imports because there is no British industry)

OK now it IS prices causing the inflation and McClusky has a political agenda (That is why he stirred it up at British Airways)
Like Scargill, he couldn’t negotiate his way out of a paper bag and like Scargill, he doesnt give a toss about his members

[harry_monk]

You’ve got to despise those unions, if only the refinery workers weren’t unionised then they could be working 60 hours a week for the minimum wage like us… no, wait!

[carryfast]

G8YMW:
The wage claims were copycat claims chasing the miners. Nothing to do with prices.
3 things caused price rises. 1972 miners strike. America selling the vast bulk of their grain harvest to Russia and the 1974 miners strike.
Those without industrial clout were better off AFTER Labour got kicked out (I know I was)
The Union leaders were too political and at least Maggie made the unions answerable to their membership instead of the other way .
(Alright she made the mistake of using interest rates to control inflation but if your competitors do not, when the economy turns around you are swamped with foreign imports because there is no British industry)

OK now it IS prices causing the inflation and McClusky has a political agenda (That is why he stirred it up at British Airways)
Like Scargill, he couldn’t negotiate his way out of a paper bag and like Scargill, he doesnt give a toss about his members

That’s the tory version of history.Then there’s the real one.
In which the miners were doing one of the toughest dangerous jobs possible providing an essential fuel which we needed and still need.Their wages were in fact falling well behind just about every other sector of industry.The wage claims they put in for were no more than that required to bring their earnings into line with every one else.They eventually ‘won’ that dispute resulting in the end of the Heath administration although the new Labour administration then stitched them up with the settlement still leaving them short compared to everyone else.

By which time we’d entered the EEC and price harmonisation,with other EEC members like Germany,where earnings were far higher in real terms,being part of that in addition to a reversal in the previous trade surplus with Europe before we joined to a trade deficit after.Then the world price of oil went through the roof owing to the OPEC oil embargo with those increases being passed on to uk consumers in full including as usual road fuel taxation.Even though we were actually self sufficient in oil.The result being runaway price led inflation.

The difference being that,at that time,the unions were still powerful enough to minimise the effects of that on incomes.Until that is the Callaghan administration decided to control prices using wage controls starting a chain reaction which led to a collapse in spending and the start of a rundown leading to large scale unemployment and a resulting loss in union membership and bargaining power.The public sector workers then being hit with massive wage cuts in real terms leading to the so called winter of discontent.Then Thatcher got in and the rest is history.
IE a global economic race to the bottom,based on taking advantage of the lowest wage economies possible,which included wiping out our domestic mining industry making us dependent on imported fuel supplies in the long term.With a scroungers charter in the give away of social housing paid for by workers who were paying for their own housing to buy votes among the working class.

The idea of using savers money to pay to subsidise low wage employment by way of low interest rates having not been thought of at that point.Unlike today.

[manic-merc]

Okay, lets make it simpler, what good has a union, any union , done in the last 25 years? There you go nice and easy and in living memory.

(I think we can all agree that they cocked up the 70’s and the early 80’s)

I’m pretty confident that the answer will be f*** all! But I have an open mind.

Ready, steady, GO!

[rhythm_thief]

manic-merc:
Okay, lets make it simpler, what good has a union, any union , done in the last 25 years? There you go nice and easy and in living memory.

(I think we can all agree that they cocked up the 70’s and the early 80’s)

I’m pretty confident that the answer will be f*** all! But I have an open mind.

Ready, steady, GO!

I’m not going to argue union stuff with you, but the very tone of your question and your previous posts shows that one thing you don’t have is an open mind, not on this topic at least.

[lusk]

manic-merc:
So Unite ride to the rescue at Grangemouth because that nasty unfeeling multinational company wants to close a place that is losing £10 million a month, Unite have offered concessions with pay cuts and reduced pension contributions and are stunned that the company will probably still close the site, but ‘Unite now accepts concessions’!

Lets get this straight, ‘intransigence’ by the Union led them to this situation, the ‘wages and pensions are the envy of the area’ and lo and behold the Unite convenor is the ‘controversial’ member who was embroiled in the vote and labour candidate fiasco.

Unite are a total shambles, ‘run’ by clueless egotistic wannabes who have no concept of reality and what a working man needs or has to put up with. No doubt the union made their usual spurious claims and false promises and it will be everyone else’s fault.

Keep up the good work Len, as f*** ups go you are legendary!

Have to say that I would not disagree with you…

[manic-merc]

I’d just like a healthy debate on the for’s and against’s of being a union member.

I want to be part of a proud and strong movement doing some good and helping a working man, history is irrelevant now. Lets go back only 10 years, what good have they done?

They must have done something good surely? Even football teams lose die hard supporters when they do badly, so what is the benefit of a union, what can they point to as proof of being a member produces positive results?

It really is quite simple surely?

[rambo19]

Ive never been a fan of unions, but, now I work for a big multi national company, I can understand the need for a union.
Big companies can, and will walk all over its employees if it can.
For me, its about trying to strike(no pun intended!) an equal balance, I believe workers and unions can and should work together for the greater good.
It’s gone from one extreme to another- in the 60/70’s the unions had the power, and, imo, abused it. Now the companies have the power and are abusing it.
The industry I work in sees new drivers comming in on lower rates of pay, and yet the companies profits go up every year.

But, a union is only as good as it’s members and it’s rep’s.