fredandginger:
i am keeping up thankyou,
the above quote states that logging POA means your breaking the WTD
now according to what i posted POA does not count towards towards working time so how can logging it as POA mean your breaking the rules? simple question.
You’re not keeping up with the question, although you can quote the facts. The question appears to be if you are limited to a average of 48 hours a week, how are drivers regularly ‘working’ and getting paid for 60 /70 hours a week but only ‘clocking’ up 48 hours a week average. We know all the how its possible, i think to narrow it down he’s asking if its ‘right’ ?
mike i was replying to the poster who stated that logging POA would mean breaking WTD rules so i was keeping up.
i know what you are all saying, they are simply using POA as a substitute and you are still on duty,
but my question is when you know about a POA in advance etc then why would logging it as such mean you are breaking the WTD when it doesnt count as working time. after all the WTD is working time directive and not being on duty directive.
as i understand it as long as you still have you minimum daily rests then you are not breaking any rules.
i know it might annoy people going on but people from the wannabee section do read these this forum too and if i was confused by that statement others coud be too.
OVLOV JAY:
But you’d struggle to get 26 pallets from one end of the county to the other by network, at 24hrs notice.
Hot shotting has always attracted a premium rate for the forwarder/haulier. I wouldn’t see this as an issue to have to pay drivers. With longer term planning of course anything is possible.
Yes but you’re talking about hot shotting being an occasional thing. When you start doing it as a norm your wage rise will be eroded when a tin of beans costs a fiver. We already pulled Carryfast apart with this crack pot idea, and he wanted to increase the speed to 65, so at least he had a little more merit
OVLOV JAY:
Why do some drivers bang on that if we do less hours the wage would “have” to go up■■?
Looks like I’m your new best mate…again I totally agree
Lets look at this realistically…if you could only work and be paid for 48 hours a week, that might equate to three good days and a bit. Or four days, whatever. And thats all you can do. Whats gonna happen? I can’t see that night drivers, day drivers etc… who do five shifts a week at 9 hours pay a day are going to be affected. Its only realistically going to affect trampers/long haul. Maybe the long distance hauliers we have now will have to team up in a more ‘palletways network’ style to keep the chain moving. Thats all. Of course Stobarts would be greatly affected by any strict adherence to a 48 hour week, so its not all bad !!
OVLOV JAY:
But you’d struggle to get 26 pallets from one end of the county to the other by network, at 24hrs notice.
Hot shotting has always attracted a premium rate for the forwarder/haulier. I wouldn’t see this as an issue to have to pay drivers. With longer term planning of course anything is possible.
Yes but you’re talking about hot shotting being an occasional thing. When you start doing it as a norm your wage rise will be eroded when a tin of beans costs a fiver. We already pulled Carryfast apart with this crack pot idea, and he wanted to increase the speed to 65, so at least he had a little more merit
I’m not carryfast !! Hot shotting by its very nature is not planned work, so yes, i’m talking about it being an occasional thing. Unless they book these hot shots in in advance, then they wouldn’t be hot shots !!
fredandginger:
mike i was replying to the poster who stated that logging POA would mean breaking WTD rules so i was keeping up.
i know what you are all saying, they are simply using POA as a substitute and you are still on duty,
but my question is when you know about a POA in advance etc then why would logging it as such mean you are breaking the WTD when it doesnt count as working time. after all the WTD is working time directive and not being on duty directive.
as i understand it as long as you still have you minimum daily rests then you are not breaking any rules.
i know it might annoy people going on but people from the wannabee section do read these this forum too and if i was confused by that statement others coud be too.
All what you are saying is right. Drivers are not breaking the law by applying POA, break etc…
The question is (hope i’m right here, as i’m reading just the same as you !!) …are employers abusing these workarounds that restrict drivers to 48 hours by getting them to work and pay them for 60/70/80 hours per week. Any answer can as yet only be an opinion because although we all do it its still very much legal. So whats your opinion on it, is it a good thing to be able to work 70 hours week after week and comply with the law or is it rubbish and you don;t want to work more than 48 hours like the spirit of the law intended?
Save the arguments, say ■■■■■■■■ to poa and just worry about the mode switching from break to working (unless you drive an ancient wagon where you have the driving mode switch).
I listen to drivers on the cb worrying about “are we switching to poa?” and just think “wtf for?” Keep the job simple ffs.
NathanB:
Save the arguments, say ■■■■■■■■ to poa and just worry about the mode switching from break to working (unless you drive an ancient wagon where you have the driving mode switch).
I listen to drivers on the cb worrying about “are we switching to poa?” and just think “wtf for?” Keep the job simple ffs.
Out of interest what sort of hours do you actually rack up in a week on tipper work? I’m thinking start 7am finish 4pm, minus your break, its not like its gonna be an issue for you guys. Or did i get my guess wrong?
The way I see it from a managers point of view (or ex-manager) is where i worked we tended to have two kinds of drivers. Those that want to work every legal hour and those that just want to do enough to earn enough. We have lads only do an 8 hour day cos that’s what they asked for. occasionally the day may go a bit wrong and it drags on a bit but … ■■■■ happens.
The problem is that these do-goodie union ideas won’t achieve what is needed - which is less hours for a much higher rate. All that will happen is less hours for the same rate (or less). A company will simply employ more people all doing less hours at the same rate. So twice as many are employed (good for the government) but those used to being paid 70 hour weeks now only get 48 hour weeks. This would work well for 4 on 4 off type shift patterns I suppose. the company gets the same total amount of hours worked but split over far more people.
it wants leaving alone. Those want to work lots of hours - go ahead. Those that don’t- don’t. if the job you have is too many hours, move on to somewhere else. if someone is being forced to break the laws … that’s a different matter.
started driving some years before 1986, different hours applied then as I recall.
so did I Waddy,around 1968, but that was the only paperwork I could find.
ASFAIR. the main changes between that set of rules and the ones before were just the differences between artics and rigids (which I could never understand the reasoning behind)and the actual driving time limits.
I think that spreadover, duty and rest were pretty much the same but honestly I am not certain, memory is going a bit nowadays
even so, it serves to highlight the total changes to the job since those days.
MikeC; Day’s like this.
6:30 start, leave pit after a brew about 6:50.
20min break about 9am.
Work/drive until 11:30, then 35/45min break depending on workload.
2pm a 15min break.
Back in quarry (base) about 3:30 to refuel, wash down etc and reload about 4pm for tomorrow.
Park up and finish at 4:30.
fredandginger:
mike i was replying to the poster who stated that logging POA would mean breaking WTD rules so i was keeping up.
i know what you are all saying, they are simply using POA as a substitute and you are still on duty,
but my question is when you know about a POA in advance etc then why would logging it as such mean you are breaking the WTD when it doesnt count as working time. after all the WTD is working time directive and not being on duty directive.
as i understand it as long as you still have you minimum daily rests then you are not breaking any rules.
i know it might annoy people going on but people from the wannabee section do read these this forum too and if i was confused by that statement others coud be too.
All what you are saying is right. Drivers are not breaking the law by applying POA, break etc…
The question is (hope i’m right here, as i’m reading just the same as you !!) …are employers abusing these workarounds that restrict drivers to 48 hours by getting them to work and pay them for 60/70/80 hours per week. Any answer can as yet only be an opinion because although we all do it its still very much legal. So whats your opinion on it, is it a good thing to be able to work 70 hours week after week and comply with the law or is it rubbish and you don;t want to work more than 48 hours like the spirit of the law intended?
thnkyou for clearing that up mike,
in my opinion and it is with my eyes wide open, is that you should ( if you dont listen to brokers etc) know before you enter this line of work what is required. personally i feel that if you want to earn the money then you need to do the hours. yes people would prefer to only do 48 hours and get the same money but that( especially in the current climate) is not possible, this same argument happened as i recall when they introduced the WTD oh more jobs and wages will go up for less hours blah blah. then POA was announced as not counting. i think it is all just word juggling it was then and is now. so i dont really see it as a good thing or a bad thing as i said its just word juggling and that the way it was,is and always will be.
i personally dont mind putting the hours in but understand why people want to have more time at home.
NathanB:
MikeC; Day’s like this.
6:30 start, leave pit after a brew about 6:50.
20min break about 9am.
Work/drive until 11:30, then 35/45min break depending on workload.
2pm a 15min break.
Back in quarry (base) about 3:30 to refuel, wash down etc and reload about 4pm for tomorrow.
Park up and finish at 4:30.
Looks like you’re complying with 48 hours per week standing on your head.
Harry Monk:
To my mind, the Law of Supply and Demand states that the more units of something there are, the less each of those units becomes worth, and this applies as much to a driver’s hourly pay as everything else.
most drivers break the poa law so where does that make it right? like i say i doubt any driver hasnt used poa when working or sat in a rdc etc etc.
if more drivers are needed rates of pay will go up look at places like northampton in the past they paid far more than say the north east as they had a big demand for drivers who were not local!
war1974:
most drivers break the poa law so where does that make it right? like i say i doubt any driver hasnt used poa when working or sat in a rdc etc etc.
If that’s the case, then it’s the law itself that is wrong, not the breaking of said law
OVLOV JAY:
Why do some drivers bang on that if we do less hours the wage would “have” to go up■■? All you who don’t play the game seem to have a big fear that you won’t get another job. Well I do play the game and I’m not blowing my own trumpet, but I could have the pick of at least 3 jobs with former employers tomorrow, even if they didn’t have jobs going. And there are more than a few like minded drivers on here, who I know are in the same position. Maybe a look in the mirror maybe in order. Then get down the local aldi, that’s if you don’t object to putting the baked beans on the middle shelf
Looks like I’m your new best mate…again I totally agree
Even though I’ve been away four years, I am sure that I would have a decent job within a week of landing in Heathrow, should I ever decide to come back to the UK. Now before anybody makes any assumptions, I’m not a supertrucker, I do a decent enough job and make the odd balls up, like everyone else, I think the difference comes down to attitude, if I get looked after, fine, if not then I’m off. I make that quite clear, not through threats and moans, just by airing any grievances in the correct manner and when I say grievances, I mean just that, not ■■■■■■■ and moaning about every little thing, especially things out of the company’s control, it’s always worked for me
those are 4 very long years, 3 years ago i would have said the same, i’ve got 30 years under my belt, i know i could have had my choice of jobs, things have got a lot tighter now, i earn a decent living, i have to work hard for it, of course i’d love to earn enough without doing the hours, but i can’t afford the luxury of sitting back and waiting for things to get better, i have bills that have to be paid now not tomorrow! i don’t live beyond my means, but when they move the goalposts on you what is the alternative?
Location plays a big part, I’d go back to my old stomping ground, lots of transport firms and the natives of all creeds and colours want to work in an office or deal drugs, so lots of driving jobs to go around, it’s always been that way, always will be
Besides, I know enough people and it’s always who you know rather than what you know
Same old , same old, think Ive read everything posted on here before.
Before the WTD & 48hrs came in we had meetings with an M.E.P. asked him where the extra divers were coming from, Where the extra money was coming from to pay for the losses we were going to make, he could`nt answer, then a few weeks before it was implemented they came up with that legal fiddle POA now we work 15hr days when before it was twelve & half spread. So the WTD has actually increased your working week not reduced it as the original idea was supposed to be.They are not stupid these buggars at the Top. Me I will not use POA as I say legal FIDDLE
we don’t do POA so i’m in no position to comment , although a previous employer once asked us to use it while we were being tipped Failing that to use our break, there were a few choice remaks made & we heard nothing more about it, although a few drivers did as asked , which was fine till Vosa got interested .
not a bad response to a first time poster , who undoubtedly will get this printed out & delivered to the clueless at either westminster or the press, who will then debate on the complexities of a rule they don’t really understand either
