Union furious over truckers’ working hours

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
41

del949:

Those that join this profession do it with their eyes open, the press gangs no longer exist, and must know what they are letting themselves in for

.

what about those who joined this “profession” before the free for all on hours.
Those who signed up to be adriver when the most you were expected to do was only 1.5 times everyone else, i.e. 60 hours including all work related time.

I really don’t get most of you at all,
longer trailers…hooray
higher speed limits…hooray
higher axle weights…hooray
higher gross weights…hooray
higher wages…silence
more hours to make up for lower hourly rates…hooray

Was that when you could drive for 11 hours per day, 10 hours rest, 5.5 hours driving before a .5 hour break and as I recall no minimum weekly rest?

42

del949:

Sorry but your seriously deluded if the think wages would go up if we worked less hrs where does the extra money come from and please don’t say rates would rise believe me they wouldnt

Using the oft quoted law of “supply and demand”, if drivers individually worked less hours, more drivers would be needed to do the same amount of work, that would soak up the pool of available drivers and lead to competition among employers to recruit drivers… so I guess that would lead to an increase in incentives on offer from the employer.
It’s a simple reversal of the obvious fact that bigger vehicles equals less drivers needed, equals lower wages
But you are correct in saying that it wouldn’t force a rise in hourly rates because some drivers would be bought by the boss simply offering extra bling on the truck,
“can’t afford a pay rise lads, but here’s two spotlights instead”

I recall about 15 years ago an Irlam driver telling me that he couldn’t have a pay rise but he was getting a new lorry shortly.

43

alix776:

war1974:
that arguement is ok if you believe you can get another job a lot of drivers especially in the current climate will be worried with bills family etc to say oh sorry i aint doing 80 hrs this week sorry, they will be shown the door pretty quickly as in haulage it is epxected that you do the hours, i have had so many arguements when ‘given’ a 15 hour day a a fair few companies and none have accepted that i dont want to work 15 hours they expect it!

if we all worked less rates of pay would have to go up its the same as people who include night out allowance at 25 per night do 4 nights out and say i earn 500 sorry you dont you earn 420 and are reimbursed for expenses for staying out.

no one should have to work 70 hours to earn decent money.

Sorry but your seriously deluded if the think wages would go up if we worked less hrs where does the extra money come from and please don’t say rates would rise believe me they wouldnt

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

so your boss has 2600 pallets to move, he will get them moved whether you work 80 hours or 40 hours if he wants to stay in business. why should he employ 20 drivers on 40 hours, when he can pay the same money to 10 muppets who will work 80 hours a week. While drivers are prepared to work those kinds of hours, then nothing will ever change, one thing that will stay the same is the hourly rate.
Lets look at the laws of supply and demand. your boss needs to move these 2600 pallets. IF NOBODY will work more than 40 hours a week, then what is he going to do? He still needs to get these pallets moved. So, he offers to pay 20 drivers half the hourly rate to move them. What will the answer be? Probably a rude word. He still needs to get those pallets moved, so now he has to offer a higher rate because he has a demand with no supply at the rate ofered.
Of course it will never happen like that because there will always be somebody prepared to undercut just to get a wage. 80 hours a week in this day and age is ridiculous. Those sorts of hours went out with the general strike. Anyone who says they need to work 80 hours a week is living far beyond thier means.
I am not rich, far from it, but I don’t try to spend what I have yet to earn.
I can’t remember if the link below came from here, can’t be bothered to check, but if this becomes truth, then all you 80 hour boys will be in your element!
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/cameron-brings-back-slavery-2012052228067

44

prockie:
Representatives from Unite have organised a meeting with the shadow secretary of state for transport, Maria Eagle, to discuss the issue after claims were made to the union that drivers are working up to 80 hours a week — nearly double the working time directive.

The union is claiming that three or four companies which operate out of Felixstowe are “intimidating” their drivers into breaching the directive and it amounts to “systematic abuse” of their employees.

Does the tachograph really give the right picture of what happens when the driver is out all week and does this 80 hour week really happen? What do the drivers themselves say?

Quite an anomally isn’t it? WTD says 48 hours average, and through a ruse of legal wizzes the use of POA and ‘break’ time appears to alleviate this problem and allow for ‘flexibility’ given the ‘issues’ within the transport sector. And in the real world driver are still clocking up 70 hours a week plus in wages, despite what their recording equiptment shows them as working. Looks to me like a lot of employers (or even most) are not complying with the spirit of the legislation even if they are sticking to the letter of the law. Of course this is no problem until someone doesn’t like it. Like now :smiley:

45

truckerjon:

alix776:

war1974:
that arguement is ok if you believe you can get another job a lot of drivers especially in the current climate will be worried with bills family etc to say oh sorry i aint doing 80 hrs this week sorry, they will be shown the door pretty quickly as in haulage it is epxected that you do the hours, i have had so many arguements when ‘given’ a 15 hour day a a fair few companies and none have accepted that i dont want to work 15 hours they expect it!

if we all worked less rates of pay would have to go up its the same as people who include night out allowance at 25 per night do 4 nights out and say i earn 500 sorry you dont you earn 420 and are reimbursed for expenses for staying out.

no one should have to work 70 hours to earn decent money.

Sorry but your seriously deluded if the think wages would go up if we worked less hrs where does the extra money come from and please don’t say rates would rise believe me they wouldnt

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

so your boss has 2600 pallets to move, he will get them moved whether you work 80 hours or 40 hours if he wants to stay in business. why should he employ 20 drivers on 40 hours, when he can pay the same money to 10 muppets who will work 80 hours a week. While drivers are prepared to work those kinds of hours, then nothing will ever change, one thing that will stay the same is the hourly rate.
Lets look at the laws of supply and demand. your boss needs to move these 2600 pallets. IF NOBODY will work more than 40 hours a week, then what is he going to do? He still needs to get these pallets moved. So, he offers to pay 20 drivers half the hourly rate to move them. What will the answer be? Probably a rude word. He still needs to get those pallets moved, so now he has to offer a higher rate because he has a demand with no supply at the rate ofered.
Of course it will never happen like that because there will always be somebody prepared to undercut just to get a wage. 80 hours a week in this day and age is ridiculous. Those sorts of hours went out with the general strike. Anyone who says they need to work 80 hours a week is living far beyond thier means.
I am not rich, far from it, but I don’t try to spend what I have yet to earn.
I can’t remember if the link below came from here, can’t be bothered to check, but if this becomes truth, then all you 80 hour boys will be in your element!
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/cameron-brings-back-slavery-2012052228067

It is a vicious circle, companies willing to work for nothing have to employ drivers who will work for nothing. The rot set in years ago and it is unlikely to improve because as you say some muppet whether boss or driver will always do the job for nothing.

46

truckerjon:

alix776:

war1974:
that arguement is ok if you believe you can get another job a lot of drivers especially in the current climate will be worried with bills family etc to say oh sorry i aint doing 80 hrs this week sorry, they will be shown the door pretty quickly as in haulage it is epxected that you do the hours, i have had so many arguements when ‘given’ a 15 hour day a a fair few companies and none have accepted that i dont want to work 15 hours they expect it!

if we all worked less rates of pay would have to go up its the same as people who include night out allowance at 25 per night do 4 nights out and say i earn 500 sorry you dont you earn 420 and are reimbursed for expenses for staying out.

no one should have to work 70 hours to earn decent money.

Sorry but your seriously deluded if the think wages would go up if we worked less hrs where does the extra money come from and please don’t say rates would rise believe me they wouldnt

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

so your boss has 2600 pallets to move, he will get them moved whether you work 80 hours or 40 hours if he wants to stay in business. why should he employ 20 drivers on 40 hours, when he can pay the same money to 10 muppets who will work 80 hours a week. While drivers are prepared to work those kinds of hours, then nothing will ever change, one thing that will stay the same is the hourly rate.
Lets look at the laws of supply and demand. your boss needs to move these 2600 pallets. IF NOBODY will work more than 40 hours a week, then what is he going to do? He still needs to get these pallets moved. So, he offers to pay 20 drivers half the hourly rate to move them. What will the answer be? Probably a rude word. He still needs to get those pallets moved, so now he has to offer a higher rate because he has a demand with no supply at the rate ofered.
Of course it will never happen like that because there will always be somebody prepared to undercut just to get a wage. 80 hours a week in this day and age is ridiculous. Those sorts of hours went out with the general strike. Anyone who says they need to work 80 hours a week is living far beyond thier means.
I am not rich, far from it, but I don’t try to spend what I have yet to earn.
I can’t remember if the link below came from here, can’t be bothered to check, but if this becomes truth, then all you 80 hour boys will be in your element!
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/cameron-brings-back-slavery-2012052228067

There a lot more to employing someone that just paying wages have a really good think about and then sit down with a calculator and work it out over 12 months and don’t forget to factor pension contributions into the cost . Then cost the truck and take your employment costs out you’ll get a big shock .
No he will still get the pallets moved hell just subb it all to foreign tricks at half the cost of your 40. Drivers as you won’t work for his wage

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

47

according to this site POA does NOT count as working time , or am i missing something?

webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. … nce?page=4

it states…

Working Time does not include:
-Routine travel between home and their normal place of work;
-Rest and breaks when no work is done;
-Periods of availability (see below);
-Optional evening classes or day-release courses;
-Voluntary work or time spent as a retained fire fighter, a special constable, or member of the reserve forces.

2.3 What is a period of availability?

Generally speaking a period of availability (PoA) is waiting time, the duration of which is known about in advance by the mobile worker. Under the Regulations, these periods have to meet the following criteria:
-a mobile worker should not be required to remain at their workstation;
-(but) they must be available to answer calls to start work or resume driving on request;
-the period and the foreseeable duration should be known in advance by the mobile worker, either before departure or just before the start of the period in question.

Like breaks and rest periods, a PoA can be taken at the workstation. Providing the mobile worker has a reasonable amount of freedom (e.g. they can relax and read), for a known duration, this would satisfy the requirements for a PoA. Where the mobile worker knows about a delay in advance, but it is deemed prudent that they should remain in the cab for reasons of security or safety, this should not in itself, disqualify this delay being recorded as a PoA. Typical examples might include waiting at a site that is unsafe for pedestrians or staying in a vehicle carrying high value goods or cash.

Mobile workers do not need to be formally notified about a PoA and its duration in advance. It is enough that they know about it (and the foreseeable duration), in advance either before departure or just before the actual start of the period in question. A PoA would be deemed to be known in advance by a mobile worker if, for example:
-someone (who does not have to be their employer) has told them, or
-they have arrived too early for their allocated slot, or
-they always experience a delay at one of their regular customers.

A PoA does not apply to delays where the mobile worker has to continue working. For example, where a driver is diverted due to a road closure, he/she would still be driving. Normally, delays due to congestion would also count as working time because the driver would be stopping and starting the vehicle. If a mobile worker is monitoring a discharge from the vehicle (e.g. petrol at filling station), this time will also count as working time.

There are no requirements as to the minimum and maximum length of a PoA

48

fredandginger:
according to this site POA does NOT count as working time , or am i missing something?

You’re not missing anything in what you just posted. Even though it was a long uneccesary explanation that we already know. Wages paid for working time, which is not classed as working time seems to be the anomally. Or as the OP explained, regularly working 70/80 hours per week but only clocking up 48 hours working time. Keep up.

49

waynedl:

toowise:
POA counts the same as break for the WTD , so doing 32 hours a week POA does not mean you have broken the WTD.

Thats how I understand it anyway.

OP, I dont want to appear rude , but when someone writes something like you have on their first post, there is usually an underlying reason for it.
If this isnt the case please accept my humble apologies, but do you have an interest in this, i.e. youre a union rep, journalist, or some other official trying to gain information about working practices at various companies.

I know this may sound paranoid but its happened in the past and this is an open forum.

Not quite, POA doesn’t count as break, it just doesn’t count as work, there’s a difference, if you did 4hrs 15 mins of work and 2hrs POA then 2hrs of work, you’d be breaking the WTD, however, if you did 4hrs 15 mins work, 2hrs break, then 2hrs work, you wouldn’t

i am keeping up thankyou,
the above quote states that logging POA means your breaking the WTD

now according to what i posted POA does not count towards towards working time so how can logging it as POA mean your breaking the rules? simple question.

50

Your mixing duty time and working time under the wtd up as poa isn’t classed as working but your still on duty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

51

Some people ain’t getting it. How would wages go up REALLY? Don’t forget with a lack of working hours you’ll be confined to local work. No more distance. Unless every transport job moves to the midlands. The only firms that would survive this crack pot idea are the plcs with a network. “Can you get a load from Brighton to Aberdeen for tomorrow afternoon?” “No, sorry, if I double man it I can have it there by Thursday” :unamused:

52

POA simply defers the requirement to take a break, it is not a substitute for it.

53

OVLOV JAY:
Some people ain’t getting it. How would wages go up REALLY? Don’t forget with a lack of working hours you’ll be confined to local work. No more distance. Unless every transport job moves to the midlands. The only firms that would survive this crack pot idea are the plcs with a network. “Can you get a load from Brighton to Aberdeen for tomorrow afternoon?” “No, sorry, if I double man it I can have it there by Thursday” :unamused:

Something the postal service and parcel network seem to have nailed down?

54

Was that when you could drive for 11 hours per day, 10 hours rest, 5.5 hours driving before a .5 hour break and as I recall no minimum weekly rest?

pre 29/9/86 summary of basic requirements

daily driving 8 hours (9 hours twice a week for drivers of rigid vehicles,drawbar outfits not included)
max driving time 4 hours
continuous duty 5.5 hours
breaks rigids 30mins or2x20 or 3x15
artics 60 mins or 2x30
weekly driving max 48 hours
fortnightly driving 92 hours
daily duty max 11hours
spreadover 12.5 hours
weekly duty 60 hours
daily rest 11 hours (reducable to 9 hours or 8 hours twice a week)
weekly rest 29 hours (reducable to 24 + daily rest every 7 days)
weekly definition rolling 7 consecutive days

55

Don’t forget with a lack of working hours you’ll be confined to local work. No more distance

'Cos as we all know no one did long distance work before the hours were relaxed, or did they?
I seem to remember that I did!

56

Mike-C:

OVLOV JAY:
Some people ain’t getting it. How would wages go up REALLY? Don’t forget with a lack of working hours you’ll be confined to local work. No more distance. Unless every transport job moves to the midlands. The only firms that would survive this crack pot idea are the plcs with a network. “Can you get a load from Brighton to Aberdeen for tomorrow afternoon?” “No, sorry, if I double man it I can have it there by Thursday” :unamused:

Something the postal service and parcel network seem to have nailed down?

That’s why I said Plcs. But you’d struggle to get 26 pallets from one end of the county to the other by network, at 24hrs notice. Unless that’s the plan, to tenfold the night trunkers

57

fredandginger:
i am keeping up thankyou,
the above quote states that logging POA means your breaking the WTD

now according to what i posted POA does not count towards towards working time so how can logging it as POA mean your breaking the rules? simple question.

You’re not keeping up with the question, although you can quote the facts. The question appears to be if you are limited to a average of 48 hours a week, how are drivers regularly ‘working’ and getting paid for 60 /70 hours a week but only ‘clocking’ up 48 hours a week average. We know all the how its possible, i think to narrow it down he’s asking if its ‘right’ ?

58

OVLOV JAY:
But you’d struggle to get 26 pallets from one end of the county to the other by network, at 24hrs notice.

Hot shotting has always attracted a premium rate for the forwarder/haulier. I wouldn’t see this as an issue to have to pay drivers. With longer term planning of course anything is possible.

59

del949:

Was that when you could drive for 11 hours per day, 10 hours rest, 5.5 hours driving before a .5 hour break and as I recall no minimum weekly rest?

pre 29/9/86 summary of basic requirements

daily driving 8 hours (9 hours twice a week for drivers of rigid vehicles,drawbar outfits not included)
max driving time 4 hours
continuous duty 5.5 hours
breaks rigids 30mins or2x20 or 3x15
artics 60 mins or 2x30
weekly driving max 48 hours
fortnightly driving 92 hours
daily duty max 11hours
spreadover 12.5 hours
weekly duty 60 hours
daily rest 11 hours (reducable to 9 hours or 8 hours twice a week)
weekly rest 29 hours (reducable to 24 + daily rest every 7 days)
weekly definition rolling 7 consecutive days

I started driving some years before 1986, different hours applied then as I recall.

60

OVLOV JAY:
Why do some drivers bang on that if we do less hours the wage would “have” to go up■■? All you who don’t play the game seem to have a big fear that you won’t get another job. Well I do play the game and I’m not blowing my own trumpet, but I could have the pick of at least 3 jobs with former employers tomorrow, even if they didn’t have jobs going. And there are more than a few like minded drivers on here, who I know are in the same position. Maybe a look in the mirror maybe in order. Then get down the local aldi, that’s if you don’t object to putting the baked beans on the middle shelf

Looks like I’m your new best mate…again I totally agree :laughing:

Even though I’ve been away four years, I am sure that I would have a decent job within a week of landing in Heathrow, should I ever decide to come back to the UK. Now before anybody makes any assumptions, I’m not a supertrucker, I do a decent enough job and make the odd balls up, like everyone else, I think the difference comes down to attitude, if I get looked after, fine, if not then I’m off. I make that quite clear, not through threats and moans, just by airing any grievances in the correct manner and when I say grievances, I mean just that, not ■■■■■■■ and moaning about every little thing, especially things out of the company’s control, it’s always worked for me :bulb: