adam277:
I’m just trying to give some counterpoints because if you watch Main stream media. The Ukrainians can do no wrong and Russia is commiting genocide and are evil.
As for life under Soviet rule. I often watch a youtube channel called bald and bankrupt. He visits former soviet states and Russia itself. A lot of Soviet States have fallen into disrepair. Belarus is a good example. But most are the same. Heck even Ukraine, most of their major infrastructure is from the soviet era along with their most prominent buildings.
When the youtuber guy speaks to these people they often say life was better under soviet rule. For example in Ukraine, all the nuclear power plants, were built under the soviet union.
That is not to say life was good. But if you live in places where buildings are falling down due to disrepair it is easy to see why a lot of people of ex soviet countries are somewhat nostalgic about life under the Soviet Union.
I think this is a failure again of the west. We provided aid to Germany, Poland for example to help them grow. But with a lot of the old bloc they lost the soviet union and nothing really replaced it.
A view of the ‘benefits’'of living in a Communist controlled state, and how it maybe ‘‘ain’t so bad’’ from a guy who is a self confessed admirer of Mao Tse Tung, to the point of having his image as an avatar…hmmmm ok then.
The biggest failing of the former USSR is that a small group of ultra rich have robbed the population blind.
Guess who I`m talking of?
Russia is not a rich country, but concentrating the wealth in a small elite, makes the life for the average person bad. Worse maybe than under the USSR.
Russia spends 4.3% of its GDP on defense. More than most other nations except maybe Saudi Arabia and Israel. The country has the same skills as before, but it is not being administered properly. Putin needs strong security forces to stay in power, he keeps changing the constitution for the same reason, and he needs a "bogey-man" in the west to unite the population with him. Letting them see the freedoms that Ukraine and others are working towards would result in his fall. That could happen yet (if we are lucky) as his venture results in defeat. If we are unlucky this old and paranoid man will have nothing to lose by pushing the red button. Lets all hope that there are enough rational people to stop that.
adam277:
That is not to say life was good. But if you live in places where buildings are falling down due to disrepair it is easy to see why a lot of people of ex soviet countries are somewhat nostalgic about life under the Soviet Union.
I think this is a failure again of the west. We provided aid to Germany, Poland for example to help them grow. But with a lot of the old bloc they lost the soviet union and nothing really replaced it.
5 minutes ago weren`t you complaining that the west were encroaching on Russia? You were for retaining buffer states?
adam277:
Also just to add some context to when Putin said he wanted to de-nazify Ukraine as one of his main goals. As the western Media has often said this is just some made up crap.
Any excuse to try to justify his aims.
To clear some, very nasty it`s true, individuals, he is today launching an artillery bombardment of a civilian population in a city?
One extremist, with no regard for innocent lives, moaning about others.
robroy:
Just been watching Sky news reports,… you can focus on the fleeting refugees if you like Winseer, but these Ukranians still there have got a hell of a lot of respect and admiration from me, for what that is worth.
Their attitude is amazing, they talk as if it’s inevitable, .the non altersnatve thing to do without question…defend their country,.these guys would rather die than have their country occupied by Putin.
Those that can t fight are filling sand bags, laying defences, making improvised weapons (molotov cocktails) and generally sticking together and doing their bit.
I’d like to think people in this country would be the same in this situation.
One who made a big impression was a young 20 yr old girl.,.a similar age to my youngest daughter, her and her friends weren’t spending money on clothes and make up as young girls do (she was not the ‘butch’ type btw ) they were buying rifles ffs.
Very brave people,
We’re already in ‘this situation’.
Russia has clearly threatened us with a preemptive nuclear strike.
I’m not seeing anyone including big mouths Bozo and Truss saying that we’re up for it and if Russia doesn’t cease its aggression in Ukraine immediately well nuke those Russian scum first.
The fact is rifles won’t fix this.
Bravery indeed.
You’re coming across as some kind of crazed warmonger type Bond villain CF me old mate.
My view (and the views of many military experts who know a lot more than you and certainly me) is that Putin’s stance is merely rhetoric warning and sabre rattling.
NATO is purely a DEFENSIVE organisation, not an offensive one.
They have no will nor right to provide military support towards the Ukraine, even if they did they would be playing into Putin’s hands, giving him a reason to justify his actions,.and to ‘‘prove’’ his justifications to the Russian people…NATO aggression towards Russia, that is the main reason there is no ''No fly zone ‘’ policies,.that could have us facing the consequences of a Russian military aircraft being shot down.
We will send what happens if Putin attacks Poland for instance, or any NATO state, history has told us that appeasement is not an ideal policy.
adam277:
I’m just trying to give some counterpoints because if you watch Main stream media. The Ukrainians can do no wrong and Russia is commiting genocide and are evil.
As for life under Soviet rule. I often watch a youtube channel called bald and bankrupt. He visits former soviet states and Russia itself. A lot of Soviet States have fallen into disrepair. Belarus is a good example. But most are the same. Heck even Ukraine, most of their major infrastructure is from the soviet era along with their most prominent buildings.
When the youtuber guy speaks to these people they often say life was better under soviet rule. For example in Ukraine, all the nuclear power plants, were built under the soviet union.
That is not to say life was good. But if you live in places where buildings are falling down due to disrepair it is easy to see why a lot of people of ex soviet countries are somewhat nostalgic about life under the Soviet Union.
I think this is a failure again of the west. We provided aid to Germany, Poland for example to help them grow. But with a lot of the old bloc they lost the soviet union and nothing really replaced it.
A view of the ‘benefits’'of living in a Communist controlled state, and how it maybe ‘‘ain’t so bad’’ from a guy who is a self confessed admirer of Mao Tse Tung, to the point of having his image as an avatar…hmmmm ok then.
No from people who actually lived in soviet countries. Let me know if you want to see the videos although they are quite long.
This is quite often the problem of westerners. You only have your own point of view to go from. Sure, from our perspective living in the soviet union would be terrible. But for those who spent decades living as basically serfs the Soviet Union gave them a better quality of life.
Franglais:
The biggest failing of the former USSR is that a small group of ultra rich have robbed the population blind.
Guess who I`m talking of?
110% agree.
5 minutes ago weren`t you complaining that the west were encroaching on Russia? You were for retaining buffer states?
I think I still am. I am not talking about making ex soviet states part of NATO but to help build them up after the fall of the soviet union via trade deals and funding.
robroy:
NATO is purely a DEFENSIVE organisation, not an offensive one.
That is some class A bullcrap right there.
Tell me when did Libya attack NATO?
Or Syria?
Or Afghanistan
Or Kosovo
I also dont remember Slobodan Milošević attacking any NATO countries. (Feel free to correct me.),
@Adam…There’s a simple answer to that paragraph you sent to me mate (that I can’t be arsed to put in quotation.)
If you don’t like living with ‘‘US’’ Westeners as you put it ,.and life under a Communist state is so much better, then make sure you knock the lights out when you ■■■■ off over there, I can’t see anybody holding you back and begging you not to leave…bye now.
robroy:
NATO is purely a DEFENSIVE organisation, not an offensive one.
That is some class A bullcrap right there.
Right back at ya.
I edited my post with proof that NATO is not a defensive organisation .
Also I dont want to live in a soviet country.
Maybe If I lived in some country like Moldova where the average salary is around £270 a month. I might have a different view though.
robroy:
NATO is purely a DEFENSIVE organisation, not an offensive one.
That is some class A bullcrap right there.
Right back at ya.
I edited my post with proof that NATO is not a deffensive organisation .
Also I dont want to live in a soviet country.
Maybe If I lived in some country like Moldova where the average salary is around £270 a month. I might have a different view though.
I don’t particularly care what your negative pro communist opinion of NATO is tbh mate, ‘‘proof’’ or no ‘‘proof’’.
I’m just thankful that it has acted as some kind of deterrent from attempted communist ■■■■■■■■■■ in my lifetime so far,…even if the threat is more prevalent at the moment.
As for you not wanting to live in a Communust state,.despite trying to inform us of the…benefits.
You sound like those radical Muslim fundamentalist pieces of ■■■■,.who slag off everything about our way of life…but continue to make us endure their infestation, instead of just ■■■■ off to hell away from here.
robroy:
NATO is purely a DEFENSIVE organisation, not an offensive one.
That is some class A bullcrap right there.
Tell me when did Libya attack NATO?
Or Syria?
Or Afghanistan
Or Kosovo
I also dont remember Slobodan Milošević attacking any NATO countries. (Feel free to correct me.),
Offence in defence.Just like counter attack.
If NATO wasn’t defensive it would have taken out Russia in 1962 regardless of Kruschev backing down.
Putin’s threats to us and NATO are real.
It makes no difference how we got here now.
Although might as well tell Ukraine it’s over and back our conventional forces out of Eastern Europe for all the use they are in a nuclear armed conflict between nuclear powers.
That might just be enough to bring the world back from the brink.
If not better those redundant forces are at home with their families to face the end together.
5 minutes ago weren`t you complaining that the west were encroaching on Russia? You were for retaining buffer states?
I think I still am. I am not talking about making ex soviet states part of NATO but to help build them up after the fall of the soviet union via trade deals and funding.
If those independent states choose to join the west…the EU…we should encourage and help with that?
Well, in spite of lots of moaning from some here, that is what has happened.
It has cost us a bit because they came along all at once just after 1989.
Now, what of NATO?
Putin demands that these states don`t join a pact because they threaten him?
But just look! Putin is invading a country: he is proving they need to belong to some sort of organisation.
Finland and Sweden seem more likely now to join the NATO than they were a month ago.
After 89 it looked like Russia might start to look west more. So far that hasnt worked out well.
But what could we do about that? It is up to Russia to choose its own leaders. (Unfortunately Putin wants to choose leaders for his neighbours too!).
Abandoning Ukraine would just encourage more expansion from Russia. Bad times for all.
Supporting them will result is hardship for them now, and for us all later.
It is a crappy situation with no good solution anywhere.
Franglais:
After 89 it looked like Russia might start to look west more. So far that hasnt worked out well.
But what could we do about that? It is up to Russia to choose its own leaders. (Unfortunately Putin wants to choose leaders for his neighbours too!).
Abandoning Ukraine would just encourage more expansion from Russia. Bad times for all.
Supporting them will result is hardship for them now, and for us all later.
It is a crappy situation with no good solution anywhere.
Franglais:
Now, what of NATO?
Putin demands that these states don`t join a pact because they threaten him?
But just look! Putin is invading a country: he is proving they need to belong to some sort of organisation.
Finland and Sweden seem more likely now to join the NATO than they were a month ago.
After 89 it looked like Russia might start to look west more. So far that hasnt worked out well.
But what could we do about that? It is up to Russia to choose its own leaders. (Unfortunately Putin wants to choose leaders for his neighbours too!).
Abandoning Ukraine would just encourage more expansion from Russia. Bad times for all.
Supporting them will result is hardship for them now, and for us all later.
It is a crappy situation with no good solution anywhere.
You know as well as I do that Russia is reacting to NATO expansion into the former Soviet/WP buffers.
If Russia had any offensive intent it obviously wouldn’t have pulled out let alone left it this long to push back.
This is clearly all the result of NATO changing its strategy from that of nuclear mutually assured destruction to conventional containment on/of Russias borders.
Bearing in mind its history of devastating invasion from the West.
Thereby falling into the trap of a strategy which actually makes war more likely because it compromised the credibility of our nuke deterrent and gave Russia an incentive to go on a nuclear backed counter move and push back.Here we are with all the gear parked on Russia’s border and zb scared to use it because he’ll nuke us if we do.
Franglais:
After 89 it looked like Russia might start to look west more. So far that hasnt worked out well.
But what could we do about that? It is up to Russia to choose its own leaders. (Unfortunately Putin wants to choose leaders for his neighbours too!).
Abandoning Ukraine would just encourage more expansion from Russia. Bad times for all.
Supporting them will result is hardship for them now, and for us all later.
It is a crappy situation with no good solution anywhere.
Another good read, lol.
The 2014 overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych, who was a democractically elected leader was backed by America.
I feel bad for Ukraine, it has been caught in a tug of war between the west and Russia for quite a long time now.
Where was the tug from the Western direction exactly?
It was their desire to join NATO (can’t think why btw ) I don’t recall the West cajoling them to join.
But why let facts get into the way of biased opinion.
What were you saying about ‘bullcrap’ before btw?..it’s slipped my mind.
Franglais:
After 89 it looked like Russia might start to look west more. So far that hasnt worked out well.
But what could we do about that? It is up to Russia to choose its own leaders. (Unfortunately Putin wants to choose leaders for his neighbours too!).
Abandoning Ukraine would just encourage more expansion from Russia. Bad times for all.
Supporting them will result is hardship for them now, and for us all later.
It is a crappy situation with no good solution anywhere.
Another good read, lol.
The 2014 overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych, who was a democractically elected leader was backed by America.
I feel bad for Ukraine, it has been caught in a tug of war between the west and Russia for quite a long time now.
It isn’t a tug of war it’s the logical result and conclusion of NATOs failed containment strategy.
It’s obvious that NATO could change its rules of engagement to include states being attacked because of their ‘prospective’ NATO membership status.
The fact that NATO hasn’t tells Putin all he needs to know.
Which explains his nuke bombers loitering in Irish airspace and his openly veiled next move into Moldova and by implication Romania.
robroy:
Where was the tug from the Western direction exactly?
It was their desire to join NATO (can’t think why btw ) I don’t recall the West cajoling them to join.
But why let facts get into the way of biased opinion.
What were you saying about ‘bullcrap’ before btw?..it’s slipped my mind.
The fact is Russia was willing to accept a guarantee that NATO would REFUSE Ukraine membership.NATO refused that guarantee obviously not Ukraine.
This is a war of NATOs making in that sense but Russia and China were/are on a mission anyway in that regard.
Which leaves the question why are both acting as though NATO isn’t a major nuclear power and why hasn’t NATO made any counter threats to Russian and Chinese nuclear threats in that regard.
Would NATO want them when many of their regions are Russian speaking so easy to hide those who could give away info
Is trying to stop the Russians a pointless exercise leading to many lives lost and coming to the same eventual outcome - the Yanks did that with Vietnam from what I remember and both Russia and USA learnt that lesson more recently in Afghanistan
To me it seems pointless to fight a war that you cannot ever win
Franglais:
After 89 it looked like Russia might start to look west more. So far that hasnt worked out well.
But what could we do about that? It is up to Russia to choose its own leaders. (Unfortunately Putin wants to choose leaders for his neighbours too!).
Abandoning Ukraine would just encourage more expansion from Russia. Bad times for all.
Supporting them will result is hardship for them now, and for us all later.
It is a crappy situation with no good solution anywhere.
Another good read, lol.
The 2014 overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych, who was a democractically elected leader was backed by America.
I feel bad for Ukraine, it has been caught in a tug of war between the west and Russia for quite a long time now.
Should John McCain have been there? No, probably not.
Tother Guardian piece wasnt reportage, it was labelled opinion and was written by one of Jeremy Corbyn`s allies.
“Modern Diplomacy”? Partners moderndiplomacy.eu › partners
Partners ; Russian International Affairs Council. International Affairs. Center for Strategic Studies under the President of the Republic of Azerbaijan (SAM).
ROG:
Is trying to stop the Russians a pointless exercise leading to many lives lost and coming to the same eventual outcome - the Yanks did that with Vietnam from what I remember and both Russia and USA learnt that lesson more recently in Afghanistan
Aren`t you arguing against yourself?
Russia and US were both defeated by the populations of countries they tried to occupy, so the outcome…will surely be bloody and hard…but in the long term Russian victory is not inevitable.
ROG:
Is trying to stop the Russians a pointless exercise leading to many lives lost and coming to the same eventual outcome - the Yanks did that with Vietnam from what I remember and both Russia and USA learnt that lesson more recently in Afghanistan
Aren`t you arguing against yourself?
Russia and US were both defeated by the populations of countries they tried to occupy, so the outcome…will surely be bloody and hard…but in the long term Russian victory is not inevitable.
The US lost Vietnam because it was unwilling to use unrestricted strategic warfare against Hanoi and killing Chinese and Russian covert forces and ultimately not risking WW3 by escalating the conflict to use of nukes agains China and Russia.
Trying to stop the Russians by conventional warfare was never the mission of NATO and certainly never by advancing conventional forces into Poland let alone Ukraine.
WW3 never even envisaged to have a winner and certainly not NATO.
Time to get your head around the idea of mutually assured destruction with the difference that now Russia thinks that NATO is scared of a nuke exchange so thinks it has a chance of actually winning WW3.
Just like the US lost Vietnam.
.
) I don’t recall the West cajoling them to join.