Ukraine [merged]

the maoster:
Of course NATO or more particularly te EU sis expansionist. It’s their whole reason to exist.

Imagine for a minute if Putin had somehow effected a regime change in Mexico to a very Moscow sympathetic one. The banshee wailing from the Americans would be unbelievable.

The EU has expanded as free countries choose to want to become part of it. They are queuing up to join.
EU tanks aren`t rolling into their neighbours!

How many free countries are trying to align with Russia under Putin? No queue is there?

You think NATO would be better if under some Trump scheme it was weakened?
And yet you criticise the Germans for (formerly) not spending enough on defense?

It doesn`t exist to expand, it expands because it works well for most countries. They choose it.

The USA would moan if Russia invaded a USA neighbour? Yes, they would.
Russia would rightly moan if the USA invaded a Russian neighbour. Of course.
That is not happening here. Its not like that. This is like the US invading Mexico because they didnt like the way the population there were voting.

This has been building for years to try to blame one or two individuals for allowing Putin to get to where he is now is futile, since Putin came to power he has constantly pushed the boundaries. He increased the Russian miltiary involvement in Chechyna, the west did nothing, the UK and USA were embroiled in a pointless and needless war in Iraq, he saw how that war affected the West’s attitude to Syria, remember Obama’s red lines over gas attacks they didn’t stand up to well to the next round of gas attacks or how the vote went in the UK over military support to the Syrian rebels. Meanwhile as long there is no direct threat to the EU they just put their fingers in their ears and increased their reliance on Russian gas, how good a propaganda coup was it for Putin that the man heading up Nordsteam was an ex German Chnacellor someone who through his intelligence briefings would have had a huge insight into the type of man Putin is and his intentions yet this didn’t stop him for a working for a corrupt regime.
To blame Trump when he was only in power for 4 years of Putin’s 22 is missing the bigger picture that does not absolve Trump of any blame but this has been going on since Putin came to power and up until now he’s heard barely a squeak of opposition from the west, to interested in buying Russian oil and gas to care about ethics or Russia’s plans for expansion.
The increase in German and other NATO countries is a good sign but until the populations of Germany and some other European countries realise that modern well trained equiped armed forces are a basic requirement as well as the publics will to stomach casualties their military capability will not increase that much.

the maoster:
Of course NATO or more particularly te EU sis expansionist. It’s their whole reason to exist.

NATOS reason to exist was as a ‘North Atlantic’ regional defence alliance mostly aimed at the Soviet WP axis and mostly based on the strategy of Mutually Assured Destruction in the event of Russian aggression.
While Russia obviously sees NATO expansion up to the borders of Russia, based on a strategy of conventional forces, as a threat.
Now NATO is running around like a headless chicken crying about possibly starting WW3 as a result.

Franglais:

Juddian:
Col. Macgregor keeps it real on Fox News. China ready to mediate settlement

The first 4 minutes of this video are worth listening to.

So, Ukraine is not to be allowed to determine it`s own future?

Putin alleges that if it became a NATO country it would be a threat to him, by having arms on its frontier. BUT Putin putting his arms forcibly on NATOs border is somehow OK?

Putin`s naked aggression is as good a recruiting sergeant for NATO as any. Sweden and Finland might be tempted more now than ever to join.

Let him keep half of Ukraine, so long as he doesn`t take the rest?
A reward for being a !!!. A carve up by the West of a country worthy of Hitler and Stalin.

Ukraine was never historically part of Russia. The USSR had military held its satellite countries down, but they (some of them) are now free of oppression.
History is dependent on which particular little window is chosen as “the right one” to return to.
Should the UK reclaim USA from the separatist rebels? They are English speakers after all.

So you want NATO to invade Ukraine and force Russia out.
Good luck with that.
The Black Sea is a long way from the North Atlantic.
The truth is you would rather destroy the northern hemisphere than let Russia win this argument.
When we all survived happily under the nuclear umbrella and the compromises thrashed out at Yalta and over Istria and later between Kruschev and Kennedy over Cuba.
What do think would have happened if JFK had said that NATO will take Crimea using conventional forces in retaliation for Russia’s move into Cuba.
Or if we’d have decided to fight Russia over Eastern Europe and Istria in 1945.
Then Liz Truss says Putin is nuts.

Mazzer2:
This has been building for years to try to blame one or two individuals for allowing Putin to get to where he is now is futile, since Putin came to power he has constantly pushed the boundaries. He increased the Russian miltiary involvement in Chechyna, the west did nothing, the UK and USA were embroiled in a pointless and needless war in Iraq, he saw how that war affected the West’s attitude to Syria, remember Obama’s red lines over gas attacks they didn’t stand up to well to the next round of gas attacks or how the vote went in the UK over military support to the Syrian rebels. Meanwhile as long there is no direct threat to the EU they just put their fingers in their ears and increased their reliance on Russian gas, how good a propaganda coup was it for Putin that the man heading up Nordsteam was an ex German Chnacellor someone who through his intelligence briefings would have had a huge insight into the type of man Putin is and his intentions yet this didn’t stop him for a working for a corrupt regime.
To blame Trump when he was only in power for 4 years of Putin’s 22 is missing the bigger picture that does not absolve Trump of any blame but this has been going on since Putin came to power and up until now he’s heard barely a squeak of opposition from the west, to interested in buying Russian oil and gas to care about ethics or Russia’s plans for expansion.
The increase in German and other NATO countries is a good sign but until the populations of Germany and some other European countries realise that modern well trained equiped armed forces are a basic requirement as well as the publics will to stomach casualties their military capability will not increase that much.

That’s bollox.
Dealing with Russia was always a fight we could never win.
We’d done well up to when NATO abandoned the strategy of mutually assured destruction and replaced it with the strategy of conventional containment on Russia’s borders.
So now Russia has called NATO out and NATO has predictably run away crying about WW3.
It’s obvious that NATO could make the invasion and attack of a prospective NATO member over that membership a pretext to kick it off if it had the bottle.
But who here really wants to lose western Europe to WW3 for zb Ukraine or even Poland.FFS.That isn’t the NATO mission we signed up for.

It’s not too often I agree with Godfrey Bloom these days but he makes some good points in this video.

THE RUSSIAN POINT OF VIEW - Make Up Your Own Mind

tachograph:
It’s not too often I agree with Godfrey Bloom these days but he makes some good points in this video.

THE RUSSIAN POINT OF VIEW - Make Up Your Own Mind

^

More or less what I’ve said word for word except all of the buffers should be made DMZ’s and this bear respects a balance of power at a distance.
Instead of which we’ve got those like our France loving friend ( the same France that dragged us into WW1 on the side of Russia ) and Liz Truss urging NATO onwards.When they’d be like a rabbit caught in the headlights when the big nuke flash happens their last words probably being I don’t believe it.
Unless they are unluckily outside of the heat and blast zone at the time.Then they’ll have a bit more more time to talk crap while waiting for the radiation sickness and hunger to take them out.

Franglais:
Ukraine was never historically part of Russia. The USSR had military held its satellite countries down, but they (some of them) are now free of oppression.

You need a history lesson.

Check out the treaty of Peace 1686 Kiev was made part of Russia then and even Poland was part of Russia by 1914.

What next you’re going to tell us that THE Ukraine, Russia’s breadbasket, fought on the side of Britain and the Ottomans in the Crimean War.
You’re suicidal ideas are going to get us nuked over an internal Slavic squabble created by the US wanting to bribe another part part of Eastern Europe to join it’s suicidal containment defence policy.
Russia didn’t say that Ukrain can’t have it’s sovereignty Russia just doesn’t want NATO nextdoor.
As Yugoslavia showed the Slavs are always up for a fight over the highest bidder.
Russia yesterday Germany and the US today.

tachograph:
It’s not too often I agree with Godfrey Bloom these days but he makes some good points in this video.

THE RUSSIAN POINT OF VIEW - Make Up Your Own Mind

A very simplified analogy. Not very original either.

Nobody is at war with Russia.

Putin is a typical megalomaniac dictator, bullying his way around. It is just a smokescreen to try and hold on to his flagging position. His Army is not keen to fight, he’s started to rely on mercenaries to get some progress.

tachograph:
It’s not too often I agree with Godfrey Bloom these days but he makes some good points in this video.

THE RUSSIAN POINT OF VIEW - Make Up Your Own Mind

Agreed, though i see eye to eye with Bloom on many things, the man has copious amounts of something sadly in short supply these days, common sense.

Remember y’all were chatting about tyres on various threads recently?

More experts talking tyres and maintenance if anyone’s interested:

“This is a thread that will explain the implied poor Russian Army truck maintenance practices …. & the operational implications during the Ukrainian mud season”

mobile.twitter.com/TrentTelenko … 5250002944

The tacit condoning of Putins criminal irredentism on these endless pages of cut and paste drivel is sickening.
The countries that border Russia are being treated like pawns, and not the proud sovereign nations that they are.
They don’t have the luxury of a channel to protect them. How many on here would be prepared to drive their families to the border, and then turn around to face an implacable brainwashed army controlled by a twisted, manic mafioso?
History tells us that any uprisings against Russia leads to slaughter and subjugation. This is the fate that awaits Ukraine, and all I read is geopolitical nonsensical views.
Putin is a criminal, as are the mafia he enriched on his way to power, and who have kept him there ever since.
Again, as always, Churchill had it right, and if he had been listened to, we would not be here today.
He told us the Bolsheviks were ’ the enemies of the human race, and must be put down at any cost’, and yet the cause has been allowed to grow, and here we are today. Communism is the greatest catastrophe to the human race. Over 100million people have been slaughtered by its adherents, and there will even be some on here who condone that too.
I say enough now. Let Putin stretch his resources in Ukraine, Georgia and Finland, then call his bluff and invade Russia. How can we sit and watch the slaughter on our TV’s?

Juddian:

tachograph:
It’s not too often I agree with Godfrey Bloom these days but he makes some good points in this video.

THE RUSSIAN POINT OF VIEW - Make Up Your Own Mind

Agreed, though i see eye to eye with Bloom on many things, the man has copious amounts of something sadly in short supply these days, common sense.

It’s got nothing to do with common sense.
Our government is working to a US dictated agenda regarding defence strategy which the US perceives as minimising the risks of a strategic nuclear strike on the US homeland.
The result being that much of our military effort is now being spent on enforcing that containment strategy on Russia’s borders.
While Russia has already cancelled it out with the threat of a preemptive nuclear strike if we dare to face Russian forces in anger.
To which Bozo has predictably avoided making a clear response in kind that we are also prepared to meet Russia’s nuclear threat with a preemptive nuclear strike.Obviously with the US defence strategy which has caused this debacle.
So we’ve got the worst of all worlds situation of both a useless nuclear deterrent and useless conventional forces in the wrong place facing a war that’s all in Russia’s favour on Russia’s terms.
Ironically I’m sort of agreed with Franglais’ that we might as well engage Russia and get it over with by calling Putin out.
There’s no way that we can salvage any form of dialogue with Russia now.
But having first prepared the country that its a suicide mission just as WW3 always was.But better than surrendering to these Russian savages also just as the Cold War doctrine of mutually assured destruction that I grew up with always was.
Realistically it’s now just a choice of attacking Russia before they attack us.
All this can ultimately be blamed on Churchill and France choosing to back the wrong side in WW1.
Now let’s see if Franglais is willing to back his big talk with getting involved in a real fight with Russia.It’s time for Franglais and his heroes Biden, Truss and Bozo to put up or shut up there can’t be any winner in WW3 but I’m done with these Commy retards.Those like Franglais wanted a war through posturing on Russia’s borders now they’ve got it.Whoops Apocalypse.

Best of luck with the invasion of Russia, hope you have better luck than everyone else who tried it in the past.
You will be joining the politicians and meejia hexperts tooling themselves up and parachuting in yourself?

Janos:
The tacit condoning of Putins criminal irredentism on these endless pages of cut and paste drivel is sickening.
The countries that border Russia are being treated like pawns, and not the proud sovereign nations that they are.
They don’t have the luxury of a channel to protect them. How many on here would be prepared to drive their families to the border, and then turn around to face an implacable brainwashed army controlled by a twisted, manic mafioso?
History tells us that any uprisings against Russia leads to slaughter and subjugation. This is the fate that awaits Ukraine, and all I read is geopolitical nonsensical views.
Putin is a criminal, as are the mafia he enriched on his way to power, and who have kept him there ever since.
Again, as always, Churchill had it right, and if he had been listened to, we would not be here today.
He told us the Bolsheviks were ’ the enemies of the human race, and must be put down at any cost’, and yet the cause has been allowed to grow, and here we are today. Communism is the greatest catastrophe to the human race. Over 100million people have been slaughtered by its adherents, and there will even be some on here who condone that too.
I say enough now. Let Putin stretch his resources in Ukraine, Georgia and Finland, then call his bluff and invade Russia. How can we sit and watch the slaughter on our TV’s?

You mean in the same way that we had to watch the Czhek and Hungary uprisings being brutally put down and the the massacre of Italians by Slavs in Istria after WW2.
We could have WW3 any time we wanted it but we rightly chose life and to save the Northern Hemisphere.
What’s so special about now.

Some people want to believe Russia are the villains here, some people think that NATO are - and the most of us by this point - have been so blinded by the constant blizzard of bull that is the “Mainstream Narrative” - that at very best we don’t (or at least shouldn’t) know WHAT to believe.

The West seems hell-bent at present trying to whip up the Western Public into a situation where we DEMAND a nuclear holocaust of our politicians.

The only reason the invasion happened to start with, right or wrong - is because the West and their institutitions - refused point-blank to both sit down and discuss Putin’s concerns (which go rather beyond just “NATO expansion” btw)

Any sensible leader would have negotiated with troops on their doorstep.
I suspect the Kiev leadership were told not to do any deals with Putin under any circumstances.

This “War” - is the result, and the obvious age-old adage:

“War - is the continuation of Politics by other means”

It is well-known that “Agitators” loyal to the Kiev Regime (if we don’t consider them to be Neo Nazis already)
are using surplus left over from the cold war years to act like the IRA within their own country’s Eastern regions, trying to drive out the ethnic Russians living there.
It is very likely these same agitators that shot down MH17 deliberately and on purpose to get Putin’s Russia villified by the West, which I also suspect knew full well that such a false flag throwdown incident was coming…

Shame about the innocent lives lost “just to make Putin look bad”.
BUT… That is exactly the kind of “Gangsters” that Putin is up against - fully backed by the Globalist Narrative, Mainstream Media Mouthpiece OF the Globalists, and of course Western Leaders that are being pressured to “support this evil - or else!”

There’s rumours abound that Macron has broken rank… I won’t say anything else, until I have more substantial input however.

Cluster Bomb Attack - Grainy Video, camera strangely doesn’t pan to show “dropping aircraft”, camera knew exactly what to focus on, looks like a line of explosive charges on the ground, as would be used in a building demolition.
Conclusion: “Agitator Throw-down event”. Motive: Make it look as though Putin was using stuff banned by international law.
If Putin IS being thus reckless, then wouldn’t he already be using thousands MORE of such alleged devices all over?
Nope. There’s a limited amount of such “surplus, antiquated kit” to be used sparingly.
Ditto for handy BUK missile systems left over from the 1980’s as well.

Missile attack on building: Video clearly shows it WAS a missile, albeit a rather old (again) so-called “Vacuum” device.
Again, how come none of these devices have been used on Kiev yet?? If Putin is behind it, has unlimited stocks of these devices, and is prepared to go out of his way to use them?

Conclusion: Missile attack - Agitators in any area BUT Kiev.

TV Mast attack - actually in Kiev this time:
Russia warned that there was inbound, local authorities refused to evacuate the area to cause maximum of their OWN civillian casualties. (5 dead, 5 wounded - we’re told…)
Conclusion: Russia actually behind this one, but perverted into another potential “war crime” by simply denying that a warning was given. Dissenting “Journalists” - hounded until they toe the deep state line.

There will be a netflix series about this “Gangster Empire” that Putin is trying to totally eradicate in a decade’s time, I suggest…

“Empire of Lies” - sounds like a good title, too…

What the Western Media are doing - is like if during the late 1930’s there were programs on American and British TV showing Russians, Jews, and Slavs going around Germany “causing trouble”, and then showing Hitler’s crime crackdown bringing order and peace back to Europe…

Britain wasn’t supposed to declare war on Germany in 1939.
Churchill wasn’t supposed to move off the backbenches “I told you so” position to become PM.
London wasn’t supposed to get bombed in 1940 - the target was Britain’s airfields.

The Fog of War is common to ALL This, past and present.

The only journalism we can take seriously here - is actual people in tin hats on the spot filming it AS it happens, rather than the alleged “aftermath”…

If I pulled out an AK-47 and blew away a classroom of schoolkids - but the media liked me rather than the regime the school belonged to…

The media would report that “An unknown white guy, likely white supremacist today murdered school kids with a Russian-made weapon.”
If it later emerged that “Gunman is English”
…It would be followed up by “Gunman was acting alone”.
If any of the kids were of colour/other religion etc.
…“Motive for attack, seems to be race-hate” providing the culprit was suspected by the authorities of being far LEFT rather than can be casually accused of being “Far Right”.

Confirmation Bias - I think that is called.

In all things, you cannot prove a negative of course.

Janos:
The tacit condoning of Putins criminal irredentism on these endless pages of cut and paste drivel is sickening.
The countries that border Russia are being treated like pawns, and not the proud sovereign nations that they are.
They don’t have the luxury of a channel to protect them. How many on here would be prepared to drive their families to the border, and then turn around to face an implacable brainwashed army controlled by a twisted, manic mafioso?
History tells us that any uprisings against Russia leads to slaughter and subjugation. This is the fate that awaits Ukraine, and all I read is geopolitical nonsensical views.
Putin is a criminal, as are the mafia he enriched on his way to power, and who have kept him there ever since.
Again, as always, Churchill had it right, and if he had been listened to, we would not be here today.
He told us the Bolsheviks were ’ the enemies of the human race, and must be put down at any cost’, and yet the cause has been allowed to grow, and here we are today. Communism is the greatest catastrophe to the human race. Over 100million people have been slaughtered by its adherents, and there will even be some on here who condone that too.
I say enough now. Let Putin stretch his resources in Ukraine, Georgia and Finland, then call his bluff and invade Russia. How can we sit and watch the slaughter on our TV’s?

Wow.

Firstly, Putin is not purposefully targeting civilians. Yea, attacks have happened, but they always happen in War. We are guilty of it as well. Ukraine themselves have said they have agreed with the Russians on keeping corridors open for civilians to flee.
If Putin wanted to kill civilians he could do so with ease. He could just shell Ukrane to the ground without sending a single Russian into Ukraine. His fleet is in the Blacksea and he borders Ukraine to the north.
Churchill may of been right but he also needed Stalin and was his ally against Hitler.
All Russia wants is not to have NATO on its borders. Which is reasonable.
When the soviet Union fell and the warsaw pact ended we should not of expanded NATO.

Also who are we to say Putin is killing civilians. To date the only country to use Nukes on people is the United States. Who did they target with these nukes? Civilians. A crime they have yet to pay for. Why hasnt the USA been sent to the hague?
watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/fil … 0FINAL.pdf

You wanna talk about war crimes. Putin pales in comparison to the UK/USA.

I’m not trying to justify Putin’s war btw. I see the war as a failure of the west in not talking with Putin. He has been going on about this for over a decade. We have ignored him.

Juddian:
Best of luck with the invasion of Russia, hope you have better luck than everyone else who tried it in the past.
You will be joining the politicians and meejia hexperts tooling themselves up and parachuting in yourself?

As I have distant family in the area, if the call to arms came, I would be compelled to go. Like the Ukranian people are telling you…via the meeja…it is them now, who will be next? You just lie down, and let Russian-Sino expansion roll over you.

adam277:

Janos:
The tacit condoning of Putins criminal irredentism on these endless pages of cut and paste drivel is sickening.
The countries that border Russia are being treated like pawns, and not the proud sovereign nations that they are.
They don’t have the luxury of a channel to protect them. How many on here would be prepared to drive their families to the border, and then turn around to face an implacable brainwashed army controlled by a twisted, manic mafioso?
History tells us that any uprisings against Russia leads to slaughter and subjugation. This is the fate that awaits Ukraine, and all I read is geopolitical nonsensical views.
Putin is a criminal, as are the mafia he enriched on his way to power, and who have kept him there ever since.
Again, as always, Churchill had it right, and if he had been listened to, we would not be here today.
He told us the Bolsheviks were ’ the enemies of the human race, and must be put down at any cost’, and yet the cause has been allowed to grow, and here we are today. Communism is the greatest catastrophe to the human race. Over 100million people have been slaughtered by its adherents, and there will even be some on here who condone that too.
I say enough now. Let Putin stretch his resources in Ukraine, Georgia and Finland, then call his bluff and invade Russia. How can we sit and watch the slaughter on our TV’s?

Wow.

Firstly, Putin is not purposefully targeting civilians. Yea, attacks have happened, but they always happen in War. We are guilty of it as well. Ukraine themselves have said they have agreed with the Russians on keeping corridors open for civilians to flee.
If Putin wanted to kill civilians he could do so with ease. He could just shell Ukrane to the ground without sending a single Russian into Ukraine. His fleet is in the Blacksea and he borders Ukraine to the north.
Churchill may of been right but he also needed Stalin and was his ally against Hitler.
All Russia wants is not to have NATO on its borders. Which is reasonable.
When the soviet Union fell and the warsaw pact ended we should not of expanded NATO.

Also who are we to say Putin is killing civilians. To date the only country to use Nukes on people is the United States. Who did they target with these nukes? Civilians. A crime they have yet to pay for. Why hasnt the USA been sent to the hague?
watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/fil … 0FINAL.pdf

You wanna talk about war crimes. Putin pales in comparison to the UK/USA.

I’m not trying to justify Putin’s war btw. I see the war as a failure of the west in not talking with Putin. He has been going on about this for over a decade. We have ignored him.

Seriously? Ukranian towns are being turned to dust as we speak. Ober 2000 dead civilians? You should be ashamed of yourself.
As for the US bombing Japanese civilians. Exactly how many young American men would you like to of seen killed before the fanatical Japanese capitulated?

Janos:

Juddian:
Best of luck with the invasion of Russia, hope you have better luck than everyone else who tried it in the past.
You will be joining the politicians and meejia hexperts tooling themselves up and parachuting in yourself?

As I have distant family in the area, if the call to arms came, I would be compelled to go. Like the Ukranian people are telling you…via the meeja…it is them now, who will be next? You just lie down, and let Russian-Sino expansion roll over you.

I wonder what the UK net in/outflow will end up being, as we’re being told there are some ukrainans going home right now, and a whole lot more others coming here that are now NOT going to be subject to any kind of “checks”…

I hope this country doesn’t become at some point in the future - a runaway destination for people that have committed atrocities, like say, Argentina became at the end of WWII…

If a benefactor like Abrahmavich can be villified from hero to zero overnight - then imagine how easy it would be for an “agitaor” to completely ruin the lives of many people in THIS country who didn’t want anything to do with this war, one way nor the other? :frowning:

I believe there is a massive mass-hysteria “Anti Russia” event in play right now, that like Covid - probably is there as a distraction to some rather sinister underlying event or the type that Simon Wiesenthal went after back in his day, and perhaps Putin is trying (not very well, PR-wise) to do now…?

Is there a “Big Guy” in Ukraine that the underworld feels they have to get out past this Russian cordon now?

Meanwhile, ordinary people actually out there, only get force-fed what their nationalist media tell them. All other narratives like Russian TV channels - have already been banned not just in Ukraine, but all over the world - to make sure the local Ukrainians cannot actually have video news footage posted to them from overseas friends they might have…

It hasn’t been a good time for “World Freedom” - has it?