biggriffin:
So my van with tools and spares 3250kg+spare engine+250kg
Trailer 150kg+load3250kg. My stuff.
Do I need cpc, B+E or C1+E, O license…
The circled bit is why trailer dealers down rate the gross weight of trailers to suite the tare of the towing vehicle so these nice horse riding girls don’t exceed 3.5 tonne gtw with the nag in the back thus still being able to have a decent size trailer .
Oh wait it’s a 1.5t gross trailer.The driver has a B + E.
How light can a trailer and a horse be to weigh 3.5t INCLUDING the weight of the towing vehicle.
It’s not rocket science average 4 by 4 2 tonne trailer 1 tonne nag 300 kg ish .
Punchy Dan:
Btw CF on my 26/44 tonne lorry n drag I load the nose to 0kg if possible or the weight of the draw bar steel neck ,max 500 kg on a bad day .
Same here Dan,
8 legger and tandem close coupled drawbar imposes a maximum weight of 500 kgs on the towing hitch, this is even when you put the bin against the front stops on the trailer.
This exactly as the pips on the bottom wear plate make wear marks in the trailer wear ring leading to the allowable gap for the ring in the jaw going beyond permitted distance.
Yeah right so it’s supposedly the same 500 kgs noseweight whether it’s a 12t gross trailer or an 18t trailer.All obviously dependent on how tail heavy the thing is and an 18 tonne trailer is going to be a lot more tail heavy than a 12 tonne trailer to get the same 500 kgs noseweight.
In my case it was all heavy pallets as far back and over the first trailer axle.Then lighter stuff behind it.
You wouldn’t have wanted to trust steel toe caps with dropping the resulting noseweight on your foot.
Bearing in mind that the tail wagging the dog situation is far more critical in the case of a 2 + 2 close coupled outfit.
3 + 2 A frame I really didn’t need to give a zb how they loaded it.
Yeah, exactly that.
The use of air suspension and the brains controlling it should equalise the load across all axles, hence why Dan can run safely with a ‘tail heavy’ load coupled to an (unforgivable in your eyes) unladen prime mover.
I spotted that Dan, it’s sure to wind him up more
CF you’ve had this same argument before on the Longer Trailers thread and the part the air suspension plays was explained then. Not by a driver. Not by an operator. But by a trailer manufacturer, you know, the ones that actually build the things.
But then again I can see why you don’t understand this. You probably finished driving when everything was still on springs and have no experience of air.
Punchy Dan:
0sheffield to Tamworth on the limiter plus more down hill nearly 2 metre overhang
Obviously sufficient weight distribution ahead of the second axle and weight in the prime mover to get away with it.Not exactly the same pendulum effect that you can create with heavy divisible pallet loads etc.
Feel free to explain why that axle positioning v silly central bogies and the obvious effects of that regarding nose weight and why they’d want that.
Carryfast:
Yeah right so it’s supposedly the same 500 kgs noseweight whether it’s a 12t gross trailer or an 18t trailer.All obviously dependent on how tail heavy the thing is and an 18 tonne trailer is going to be a lot more tail heavy than a 12 tonne trailer to get the same 500 kgs noseweight.
In my case it was all heavy pallets as far back and over the first trailer axle.Then lighter stuff behind it.
You wouldn’t have wanted to trust steel toe caps with dropping the resulting noseweight on your foot.
Bearing in mind that the tail wagging the dog situation is far more critical in the case of a 2 + 2 close coupled outfit.
3 + 2 A frame I really didn’t need to give a zb how they loaded it.
Drag trailer unladen weights vary massively so you are talking more rubbish,a tandem 20 ft 18 tonne gross made by wheelbase can be 4 tonne yet a triaxle Cartwright at 23 ft 24 tonne gross can weigh 3.5 tonne .
What has unladen weight got to do with gross trailer weight.How do you get the same gross noseweight with an 18t gross trailer as a 12t gross trailer without loading it more tail heavy.
Why would you be using a tri axle trailer to make 44t gross with a 26t or 32t prime mover.
Yes it’s obvious that a triaxle centre bogie will help.
It still has all the same flaws of the pendulum tail wagging the dog effect if its loaded tail heavy.IE it still needs a decent noseweight but has a better pivot point further back at the second axle.
Similar to putting a two axle bogie further back.
Johneboy:
The use of air suspension and the brains controlling it should equalise the load across all axles, hence why Dan can run safely with a ‘tail heavy’ load coupled to an (unforgivable in your eyes) unladen prime mover.
I spotted that Dan, it’s sure to wind him up more
CF you’ve had this same argument before on the Longer Trailers thread and the part the air suspension plays was explained then. Not by a driver. Not by an operator. But by a trailer manufacturer, you know, the ones that actually build the things.
But then again I can see why you don’t understand this. You probably finished driving when everything was still on springs and have no experience of air.
I get it let’s drop all the air out of axle 1 so now it’s just a single axle bogie which pivots on axle 2 instead thereby increasing the nose weight it needs but Dan says it doesn’t.That’ll fix it.
The same with longer trailers.Dump the air out of trailer axles 1 and 2 put it all on axle 3.So we’ve effectively got a 3 + 1 48t gross artic just to get sufficient weight on the pin.But the cut in measurement still looks good.
Oh and by definition the demount A frames I drove were all air suspension because that’s how we dropped and picked up the boxes.
Punchy Dan:
0An old photo but none the less check the strategically positioned top pipe ,3 loads a day stanton pipe works to Devon over a 2 month period .
What are the actual weights of your examples ?.
So let’s minimise noseweight to keep the van within its gross limit ?.
Or sometimes an empty prime mover and a loaded trailer it will have to be.
OP take note.
Carryfast:
How light can a trailer and a horse be to weigh 3.5t INCLUDING the weight of the towing vehicle.
It’s not rocket science average 4 by 4 2 tonne trailer 1 tonne nag 300 kg ish .
Oh wait Disco/Range Rover 2.3-2.6t nag weighs 380 - 1,000 kgs.Which then leaves the trailer.
I admit I didn’t have a bleedin clue about horse weights even though the surrounding fields are full of em.But I do know you wouldn’t want to be under one if it falls over or have one tread on your foot.
Punchy Dan:
So just to be clear Rog a 3.5 tonner towing a trailer for hire or reward in your words is a dcpc required for the driver ,yes or no please .
NO
Where is that rule ‘actually’ stated by the government ROG.As opposed to over 3.5t.
Punchy Dan:
You changed your mind on the dcpc but then Rog ?
DCPC is for those commercially driving vehicles over 3.5 tonnes
Exactly where does it say that doesn’t include over 3.5t GCW/GTW vehicle and trailer outfits ?.
Driver cpc is for those driving lorries and buses
A lorry is not a 3.5 tonne van
Driver cpc goes on the GVW of the vehicle being driven and has nothing to do with the trailer
ROG:
Driver cpc is for those driving lorries and buses
A lorry is not a 3.5 tonne van
Driver cpc goes on the GVW of the vehicle being driven and has nothing to do with the trailer
Let’s get this right up to 7t van and trailer outfit needs an O licence and Tacho just like a 7.5t ‘lorry’.But their respective drivers don’t and do need a DCPC.
ROG:
Driver cpc is for those driving lorries and buses
A lorry is not a 3.5 tonne van
Driver cpc goes on the GVW of the vehicle being driven and has nothing to do with the trailer
Let’s get this right up to 7t van and trailer outfit needs an O licence and Tacho just like a 7.5t ‘lorry’.But their respective drivers don’t and do need a DCPC.
Define ‘lorry’.
Right then Cf ,Rog has grasp it now so why don’t you ?
3.5 t gross vehicle can pull a trailer up to whatever it’s gtw is example 7 t and no dcpc is required no matter what the vehicle is used for .
For hire or reward a tacho and o licence is required.
For a business transporting own goods to customers no o licence needed but just a tacho .
The requirement for dcpc starts at 3501 kg after that you can split hairs on .
As you know other businesses with this type of vehicle the tacho use depends on the drivers activity/ job .
Punchy Dan:
I bet the op is well confused by now what with CF talking in riddles and Rog with conflicting statements
He won’t go far wrong if he goes by the logic do whatever it takes to maintain zero nose weight to keep the van at 3.5t max.
Nose weight can be plus. minus or zero on the towing vehicle as it depends how the trailer is loaded
Saying that, nose weight putting extra onto a fully weighted vehicle only becomes an issue if it is excessive because there is a legal acceptable margin
That same margin applies for overloaded LGVs
Punchy Dan:
I bet the op is well confused by now what with CF talking in riddles and Rog with conflicting statements
He won’t go far wrong if he goes by the logic do whatever it takes to maintain zero nose weight to keep the van at 3.5t max.
Nose weight can be plus. minus or zero on the towing vehicle as it depends how the trailer is loaded
Saying that, nose weight putting extra onto a fully weighted vehicle only becomes an issue if it is excessive because there is a legal acceptable margin
That same margin applies for overloaded LGVs
Nip up to Sleaford weighbridge tell them that and get my £200 back ( interest required as it was some yrs ago )
Johneboy:
The use of air suspension and the brains controlling it should equalise the load across all axles, hence why Dan can run safely with a ‘tail heavy’ load coupled to an (unforgivable in your eyes) unladen prime mover.
I spotted that Dan, it’s sure to wind him up more
CF you’ve had this same argument before on the Longer Trailers thread and the part the air suspension plays was explained then. Not by a driver. Not by an operator. But by a trailer manufacturer, you know, the ones that actually build the things.
But then again I can see why you don’t understand this. You probably finished driving when everything was still on springs and have no experience of air.
I get it let’s drop all the air out of axle 1 so now it’s just a single axle bogie which pivots on axle 2 instead thereby increasing the nose weight it needs but Dan says it doesn’t.That’ll fix it.
The same with longer trailers.Dump the air out of trailer axles 1 and 2 put it all on axle 3.So we’ve effectively got a 3 + 1 48t gross artic just to get sufficient weight on the pin.But the cut in measurement still looks good.
Oh and by definition the demount A frames I drove were all air suspension because that’s how we dropped and picked up the boxes.
No. As usual no you don’t.
Nobody drops all the air out of axles unless it’s a lift axle or to lower the back of the trailer.
It’s more likely that more air is put into the correct air bags to balance the load out.
This was more than hinted at by a manufacturer a while back. Why not take it up with them about the finer points of weight distribution, axle loads, weight on pin and weight imposed on the towing vehicle? I think they’d have more information at their finger tips than just Google.
Punchy Dan:
0An old photo but none the less check the strategically positioned top pipe ,3 loads a day stanton pipe works to Devon over a 2 month period .
What are the actual weights of your examples ?.
So let’s minimise noseweight to keep the van within its gross limit ?.
Or sometimes an empty prime mover and a loaded trailer it will have to be.
OP take note.
Carryfast:
How light can a trailer and a horse be to weigh 3.5t INCLUDING the weight of the towing vehicle.
It’s not rocket science average 4 by 4 2 tonne trailer 1 tonne nag 300 kg ish .
Oh wait Disco/Range Rover 2.3-2.6t nag weighs 380 - 1,000 kgs.Which then leaves the trailer.
I admit I didn’t have a bleedin clue about horse weights even though the surrounding fields are full of em.But I do know you wouldn’t want to be under one if it falls over or have one tread on your foot.
Get back on google Cf a shire horse will have all on to weigh 1 tonne ,I don’t know any young filly’s ( great pun) that ride a shire horse they all got ponies at about a quarter tonne approx .
