Tommy Robinson, saint or sinner?

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
121

davepenn54:
@wheel nut, story isn’t true, he is absolutely fine and is at Leeds Crown Court tomorrow not sure why but that is the state of play.
@trampus did a big response to your very abusive post to me but somehow deleted it so once again I’m outta here for tonight, will chase you up after I get home from Leeds you are on my hook now and I,m not letting someone with such an overblown ego get away with promoting far left propaganda and misinformation without a robust and truthful response.

Regards
Dave Penn;

Are you talking to me? You seem to have used my name about an abusive post,

Sweet dreams

122

albion:
There was no criticism of the man intended, my point was that his words could easily have been spoken by someone in Germany, England, France , who felt that their culture is being eroded. We can all go to areas of a town we know and feel as if you are in a foreign country. I’m pretty relaxed about what people do in their cultures, with a few exceptions such as FGM, we are all different. There comes a tipping point for all of us when the situation no longer feels right. For the Syrian man he’d reached his tipping point and sent back ‘home’. When you are at home though, you are a bit stuck; if you go somewhere else then you definitely are not comfortable.

I don’t know really, because I’ve never been to any parts of town where it felt like a foreign country. The strongest feeling one gets in most ethnically concentrated areas is that one is in a Victorian slum. And whilst I can understand some people who actually have roots in these areas would have sensed change from 50 years ago, that would still only be a tiny minority of the population who have actually seen an area change radically over their lives, and most of the ethnic population in such places are British-born.

My mother said a while ago that she went shopping one day and all she could hear was foreign languages, and yet the reality is that White British people still make up about 95% of the area. I struggle to believe that it’s anything other than a problem in perception and the narratives that exist in society (created by right-wing propaganda, that is often sensationally negative).

And perhaps White Brits who are themselves feeling isolated as they get older, not because of migration but because community life has fallen apart amongst Brits (and that’s to a large extent because the majority of Brits are moving house, and not just within a street or two, and aren’t reforging links by frequenting local boozers and corner shops, associating with neighbours, using public transport, and things like that).

Even the fact that people are having far fewer children, and dog ownership has reduced, Brits just aren’t out and about in their lo ocal communities anymore. The location of physical infrastructure and Brits own social customs have changed.

123

Carryfast:

Rjan:
Do you really think that we’re dealing with an organised soldiery trying to overthrow Western/Christian society?

Yes. :unamused:

But it also goes a lot further than that.More like a Yugoslav Communist type plot to impose an unrepresentative Islamic influence over the country because just like Tito’s rabble the Socialists think it helps their agenda.

On that note if the choice is between believing your Socialist bs v Robinson or Batten in that regard I’d rather trust the latter thanks.

But as an atheist, who is White, and has no affinity to Islam, what possible reason do you think I would have for “plotting” to impose such influence? It’s like I’ve said before, it’s because you rehearse these silly narratives to yourself, that your rational mind turns to mush.

And indeed, can you give a single example from direct experience where some aspect of your life has been changed on account of this “Islamic influence”?

124

Seems to be an option missing in the title…

“Right wing, ■■■■, racist scumbag”,

125

Rjan:
can you give a single example from direct experience where some aspect of your life has been changed on account of this “Islamic influence”?

Quite obviously the answer to that is NO. But carryfast likes to complain about it anyway.

126

davepenn54:
Well, I’m back, couldn’t be arsed to carry this on last night, especially with the indoctrinated left wing posters, uktramp and rijan, who true to form turn the perps into victims and shame the real victims by blaming them because they were naive children who enticed these sweet jasmine smelling fella’s to ■■■■ them multiple times for a free kebab and a bit of weed, the fellas were doing them a favour and we should be grateful to them for looking after them !

We hold our positions not because we are indoctrinated, but because we refuse to be indoctrinated. Nobody has tried to turn “perps into victims”, nobody has attempted to “shame the real victims”.

On the contrary, what I have said is that these are badly mistreated children, neglected children, and that is the real problem that needs to be addressed effectively.

And I’m not saying that those who have attended backroom whorehouses in kebab shops to have ■■■ with underage girls are any less reprehensible - these people should definitely be doing time.

What I was addressing was the sort of scenario where the police attend “a house” and find “a naked girl” in the company of “older men” and proceed to “arrest the girl”, and my reading of that is not that this was ■■■ ring that police turned a blind eye to or criminalised the victim, but a simple house party where a drunken girl who was there by her own choice wasn’t willing to have her night’s fun stopped early by police.

And what sort of young girl is willing to resist a police officer taking her home? The sort who have experienced broken homes and the coldness of institutional care, and therein lies the real problem.

And yet it is clearly your agenda to have us believe that there is nothing wrong with these kids’ lives, other than that their naivety is being exploited by Muslim gangs. And it’s exactly that institutional disregard that these kids are accustomed to, and that’s why when a police officer or a social worker turns up to supposedly “rescue them from harm and exploitation”, the kids don’t see it that way at all, and they say to the police “zb off, you’re not here to help me!”.

Now a question for you both, before this thread what did you know about this case ?

Do you mean, do I check the court listings on a daily basis to see exactly what cases are going on? No. And frankly, I don’t know any more about this particular case than I did in the first place. All I know is that a case is occurring (at a court whose location I haven’t bothered to memorise), and Robinson has been jailed for disrupting it - but that doesn’t add anything to my prior knowledge, as I already knew that such rings were in the process of being smashed (which, one supposes, would lead to court cases), and I already knew that far-right protesters were in general getting into trouble for disrupting such court cases.

Just to clarify it is not a new case it has been going on for 18 months, it involved 29 defendants and was about historic abuse 2004-2011 involving 18 girls aged from 11-17. Because of the high number of defendants they were being dealt with in smaller groups 10, 10 and 9 this was also the sentencing phase for group 2, all defendants have previously been found guilty of all offences, but nothing has been reported by MSM, so there wasn’t a jury to be influenced by Tommy Robinson. Also, just by coincidence, one of the defendants at Leeds Crown Court was also a defendant in another Crown Court case for historic ■■■■■■ abuse offences (ongoing) in that lovely South Yorks town that begins with R and is connected to Sheffield by a dual carriageway, he is a town councillor and hasn’t stood down, been suspended or even, god forbid, resigned.

Then by all means publicise these facts. But you undermine your own logic, because if the court cases had indeed finished, then Tommy Robinson wouldn’t be getting arrested in a courthouse, and the defendants he was targeting would not be in attendance.

I intend to pose questions for you two just one at a time, so you don’t have the opportunity to twist things because of your left wing ideological views if I gave you multiple questions. I hope you will be kind enough to join in the debate because you seem to be the only ones, at the moment, who cannot see the bigger picture, but hey ho that’s socialism and left wing indoctrination for yer lol.

I’m quite happy to answer questions and engage in debate. The question is whether you will listen to anything that is said in response.

127

davepenn54:

UKtramp:
Basically this is his views
0

@uktramp, you have made a very slanderous statement there, you do realise that it is now classed as hate speech by the thought police, but I guess you feel immune because you consider yourself to be on the ‘right’ side. I really hope you can bring some tangible evidence to the table that can prove your far fetched claim, although I do know Tommy R receives much worse abuse daily, viable death threats to himself and family and has received 6 Osman warnings from Bedfordshire police, so I don’t think it is something he gets wound up about just takes it as par for the course born out of sheer ignorance and the inability to think things through in a rational manner just go with herd and believe everthing the MSM tells yer and become just like all the other sheeple.

So, a whole paragraph casting yourself as the victim of “slander” and “hate speech”? Nobody is policing your thoughts here. We’re hearing you out and we simply don’t agree.

And I don’t know about UKTramp, but I certainly don’t believe everything the MSM “tells me”. In fact, I denounced the war in Iraq, denounced the war in Libya, denounced the premature accusations and lies against Russia in respect of the Skripal poisoning, and denounced the recent retaliation against Syria - all of which were overwhelmingly supported in the MSM!

You do understand that islam is a political ideology that masquerades as a religion of peace and it’s only goal is to implement sharia law worldwide by ■■■■■■■■■■, subjugation and the murder of unbelievers, you cannot be racist against an ideology because it isn’t a race it is a belief system that encompasses any race and therefore is open to criticism, the only thing is because you & rijan are not really in the know nobody in the UK can now criticise the religion of peace because sharia blasphemy laws have been slipped in by the backdoor whilst you were twisting yer knickers about Tommy, a totalitarian regime has introduce a law to keep all free thinkers quiet on the threat of prison without due process.

But there are millions of Muslims in this country, most born here (and many more that will have lived here for 5 decades or more), and how many religiously- or politically-motivated murders have occurred against “non-believers”?

And like I say, nobody is stopping you criticising anything. Your real complaint is that too many people are disagreeing with you. There are no “Sharia blasphemy laws slipped in by the back door” - all there is, is a Muslim community who don’t take kindly to having their mosques attacked, their peaceful practices slandered, or their Korans burned on the street by far-right protesters, and if you do that as part of an organised mass protest outside a mosque then there are almost certainly some young fellas from the neighbourhood who’ll give you what for in return.

Go to many churches in America and burn a bible outside the door, and I’ll bet you bullets will be flying. In fact, do that in Belfast once upon a time, and bullets would probably have been flying. In more backward areas of America, Jeremy Clarkson was once chased with guns and pitchforks for having “I love gays” written on the side of his car (or something like that). Yet “critics of religion” like yourself don’t start hectoring every Christian in the British Isles for this reason, because quite rightly you’d recognise that it’s not representative of the Christian community in Britain - and nor is any of what you’ve said representative of the Muslim community.

128

kcrussell25:
I watched one of his videos and he said (roughly as I can’t remember properly) 90% of grooming is done by Muslim men who make 4% of the population!

He might have said that, but it’s still preposterous. 90% of serious criminals in Britain are probably white, but it doesn’t mean anything like 100% of white people are serious criminals, or that serious crime is a culture amongst whites!

129

muckles:

Rjan:

muckles:
So his arrest, whether it is for a legitimate reason or not, has stopped him broadcasting, but has given him a far higher exposure and status to many, hence the pages about him on here, the vast coverage on social media platforms, petitions for his release, demonstrations. When he’s released his words will carry a greater significance for a far wider audience. Do you think that is a good thing?

Indeed, but what do you do? He can’t be legally untouchable no matter what he does, simply because he has a following. Most of his followers will say that anything that the state does to prevent him whipping up a pogrom of Muslim communities, is an outrageous unjustified attack on him.

I know his ■■■■■■■■ follows will hang on every word he says, but this arrest will help him him pick up new supporters.

Although judging from the comments in the video, he may have allienated some of his ■■■■■■■■ supporters when he interviewed a Transsexual journalist recently.

The answer though is to address underlying issues. He can’t be ignored, nor can he be immune.

I was watching a Youtube video by a Robinson supporter - a middle-aged white fella. The punchline to the whole thing was that he was living in Cambodia and was penniless, and I think that goes back to what I’ve said about economic issues, and also about the collapse of British community life (not caused by Muslim communities, but by broader socioeconomic changes and geographic mobility).

It is ironic though that Robinson is more liberal than most of his supporters! Probably because he’s substantially younger than the main demographic that comprises his support.

Rjan:
If he was being silenced for political views, or indeed for having simply told the truth on some or other matter, I’d be signing the petition myself. I actually felt a bit sorry for Nick Griffin that time when he appeared on Question Time - although at other points in the same program, I also remember cheering at the telly.

I’m pleased to hear that, it was basically the fundamental point I was trying to make, we must defend the right of those who stick their heads above the parapet and are a thorn in the side of the establishment even if we don’t agree with them.

I think Nick Griffin is a great example of why we should although these people a mainstream platform, that’s where they can be challenged and when their arguments are found lacking substance

I agree. The main reason why the “liberal elite” try to silence debate, is because they start to realise that the ruling class narrative which they subscribe to has lost traction, and rather than accept the need for reform, instead their liberal values then go out of the window.

It’s the same with Brexit, and it’s the same with Corbyn - having recognised that they aren’t winning the argument for the status quo, those who variously consider themselves “moderates”, “centrists”, and “liberals”, simply engage in as much smearing, stifling, and skulduggery as they possibly can.

Rjan:
The real problem with the far-right like always is the economic situation, the strains and insecurities that feed into a general sense of dissatisfaction and anger. Even in this story, as much as it is about Muslims, it is also clearly about powerful authorities that “don’t listen” and “cover up” and are otherwise unresponsive, malign, and corrupt, but it’s a peculiarity of the far-right that scapegoats form the pivot against which these dissatisfactions with power are expressed, rather than confronting power directly as the left do.

I think the extremes on both sides play identity politics, putting people into groups either to vilify but that’s dangerous, we are individual and often can fit into many groups, by some I would be put into a group of white middle aged working class male and considered to hold the views that certain extreme groups attach to that group of people, when I know that is far from the truth.
The same goes for other groups who are more regularly lumped together, we get the black community label, when they make up of many different type of people some will have more in common with me than those from some inner city estate, but they get stereotyped even though they maybe Doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers, but they’re all lumped together to fit some political agenda.

Agreed. In any social group, there’s always a mix of views (often a full spectrum of them), and really what you’re talking about is tendencies and themes and the relative balance of different positions.

130

Rjan:
And I don’t know about UKTramp, but I certainly don’t believe everything the MSM “tells me”. In fact, I denounced the war in Iraq, denounced the war in Libya, denounced the premature accusations and lies against Russia in respect of the Skripal poisoning, and denounced the recent retaliation against Syria - all of which were overwhelmingly supported in the MSM!

But there are millions of Muslims in this country, most born here (and many more that will have lived here for 5 decades or more), and how many religiously- or politically-motivated murders have occurred against “non-believers”?

And like I say, nobody is stopping you criticising anything. Your real complaint is that too many people are disagreeing with you. There are no “Sharia blasphemy laws slipped in by the back door” - all there is, is a Muslim community who don’t take kindly to having their mosques attacked, their peaceful practices slandered, or their Korans burned on the street by far-right protesters, and if you do that as part of an organised mass protest outside a mosque then there are almost certainly some young fellas from the neighbourhood who’ll give you what for in return.

Go to many churches in America and burn a bible outside the door, and I’ll bet you bullets will be flying. In fact, do that in Belfast once upon a time, and bullets would probably have been flying. In more backward areas of America, Jeremy Clarkson was once chased with guns and pitchforks for having “I love gays” written on the side of his car (or something like that). Yet “critics of religion” like yourself don’t start hectoring every Christian in the British Isles for this reason, because quite rightly you’d recognise that it’s not representative of the Christian community in Britain - and nor is any of what you’ve said representative of the Muslim community.

It’s clear that the MSM media are only against Putin because they consider that he’s a Nationalist.While you’re bright enough to realise that he’s probably anything but and still close enough to your Chinese mates for you to give him the benefit of the doubt.No surprise that same anti Putin media said nothing about China’s support of Putin in both the Scripal case and in the case of Syria.

There were plenty of Yugoslav Communists that disagreed with Nationalists in the former Yugoslavia too.This type of disagreement doesn’t just go away because self appointed so called working class saviours ( little dictators and liars ) like your lot refuse to recognise their opposition.History shows that it escalates and gets worse not better.

So you’re now saying that your rabble would join the Islamists in fighting on the streets against the closure of Wahabbist/Salafist mosques as in the example of the Cardiff mosque which I posted ?.While if the Islamic population is as moderate as you say it is then it would obviously have no problem in declaring Wahabbism as Takfir and actually supporting the closure of such mosques and telling the Saudi savages to zb off and boycotting the Haj as part of that.Then setting up a new moderate UK muslim division of the faith based along Yazidi lines.Then the government has the nerve to intern Robinson while allowing your lot to do as and say whatever they like.That obviously including condoning violence to further the radical Wahabbist cause.No surprise there.

As for the Clarkson stunt.Maybe you should stand outside the Cardiff mosque calling for the right of gay marriage within it as the MSM likes to do so often in the case of Christian churches. :unamused:

131

Rjan:
In any social group, there’s always a mix of views (often a full spectrum of them), and really what you’re talking about is tendencies and themes and the relative balance of different positions.

The issue of Wahabbist Islam having no place in western society and its Socialist apologists ( supporters ) calling for violence on the streets to defend it isn’t an issue of ‘balance’.The Guardian moaning and feigning concern about Gulf funding of and resulting influence over UK Islamism you couldn’t make it up.Haven’t heard of any UK Islamic groups calling out to distance themselves from the Saudi savages in that regard including boycotting the Haj.No surprise there. :unamused:

theguardian.com/uk-news/2017 … -extremism

irishtimes.com/news/world/uk … -1.3144020

132

UKtramp:
Basically to sum up my views for those who are confused.
Q: Do I believe TR to be a sinner or saint. A: Sinner
Q: Do I think TR should have been jailed. A: No
Q: Do I agree with what TR views are. A: Some yes, others NO
Q: Do I agree that these crimes be covered up. A: Most certainly NOT.
Q: Do I believe all Muslims are rapists A: No And who is saying they are?
Q: Do I believe in integration A: Yes Not part of this conversation,is it?
Q: Do I believe there has been a political motive behind TR arrest A: most certainly And yet you support censorship!
Q: Do I believe in free speech A: mostly, but depends And who decides who and what gets censored?
Q: Am I a communist or a lefty A: NO
Q: Do I find carryfast boring A: YES
Q: Do I find carryfast Interesting A: At times
About rounds it up, that is all.

Please concentrate on the real story rather than wandering off into your own beliefs. A man has been sent to prison for 13 months in a country that has sacrificed millions of our young men in the name of democracy with no explanation and a news blackout. Could it be because he embarrasses those responsible for permitting this scandal to go unchallenged for decades and they’re worried that eventually they might and it is only might unfortunately, stand in the dock to answer for their crimes?

133

Rjan:
I don’t know really, because I’ve never been to any parts of town where it felt like a foreign country. The strongest feeling one gets in most ethnically concentrated areas is that one is in a Victorian slum. And whilst I can understand some people who actually have roots in these areas would have sensed change from 50 years ago, that would still only be a tiny minority of the population who have actually seen an area change radically over their lives, and most of the ethnic population in such places are British-born.

My mother said a while ago that she went shopping one day and all she could hear was foreign languages, and yet the reality is that White British people still make up about 95% of the area. I struggle to believe that it’s anything other than a problem in perception and the narratives that exist in society (created by right-wing propaganda, that is often sensationally negative).

And perhaps White Brits who are themselves feeling isolated as they get older, not because of migration but because community life has fallen apart amongst Brits (and that’s to a large extent because the majority of Brits are moving house, and not just within a street or two, and aren’t reforging links by frequenting local boozers and corner shops, associating with neighbours, using public transport, and things like that).

Even the fact that people are having far fewer children, and dog ownership has reduced, Brits just aren’t out and about in their lo ocal communities anymore. The location of physical infrastructure and Brits own social customs have changed.

I’m not sure if you can read this article or if it will appear behind a paywall.

thetimes.co.uk/article/how- … -5l5f8g00l

It’s written by Sarfraz Manzoor. I often think if you meet people like Sarfraz, seems fairly liberal, educated, Pakistani Muslim, then your views about integration are positive.

However, if you are unable to read the link, very briefly it’s about Glodwick in Oldham, not far from me. As one Muslim shop owner says, “if a white person was to walk down the street, I swear 9 out of 10 people would crane their neck to look”. At the women’s centre, they want to learn English but they admit they tell their children not to make friends with the white kids because they are afraid of their own culture being diluted and of western liberal influence.

As for most of the ethnic population is British, the article quotes an interesting exchange between the shopowner Imran and his cousin Eyaz.

Imran: tell him where you’ve been in the world.

Eyaz: Pakistan. That’s our country, isn’t it?

Imran: See what I mean? Typical. That’s our country. No, it isn’t. You were born here.

Eyaz: Our parents come from there.

Imran: Our parents do. But you don’t. Why don’t you move there if it’s your country.

If your experience is of Glodwick type places then you won’t feel that you are at home.

I’ve worked in Salford for 22 years and as an outsider, it’s interesting to look at. A mere ten years ago, you literally didn’t see a black person - Trafford down the road was black, Salford was white. Now somedays I feel like I’m I’m in the foyer at the United Nations. I’ve no idea if it’s good or bad, but the speed of change has been quite breathtaking and you couldn’t blame people that have spent 60 years living here, feeling that their life and culture had been eroded.

Maybe I’m lucky - where I live it’s a working class town, I know my neighbours, spoke to them yesterday whilst he hoovered his car and I cut the hedge, trotted across to see another neighbour whose wife has dementia - knowing how difficult it is, I call in now and again and he gets to have a chat that doesn’t rely on saying the same thing 25 times. Spoke to some dog walkers that I see regularly. My social customs haven’t changed much, maybe it’s a Northern thing and we are still a fairly white town.

So my feeling is that to go back to where I started, it depends a lot on the people you meet and their willingness to engage - and it has to be their willingness to engage because they are in England and there is an English way of doing things. If I head to live in Iran, then I have to start doing things the Iranian way.

134

Carryfast:

Rjan:
[…]

It’s clear that the MSM media are only against Putin because they consider that he’s a Nationalist.While you’re bright enough to realise that he’s probably anything but and still close enough to your Chinese mates for you to give him the benefit of the doubt.No surprise that same anti Putin media said nothing about China’s support of Putin in both the Scripal case and in the case of Syria.

I can’t claim that I analysed the issue in so much detail in terms of foreign affairs. I simply asked “where is the evidence?”, and it quickly became apparent that there was none and that the reasoning being offered was utterly unsound.

So you’re now saying that your rabble would join the Islamists in fighting on the streets against the closure of Wahabbist/Salafist mosques as in the example of the Cardiff mosque which I posted ?.While if the Islamic population is as moderate as you say it is then it would obviously have no problem in declaring Wahabbism as Takfir and actually supporting the closure of such mosques and telling the Saudi savages to zb off and boycotting the Haj as part of that.Then setting up a new moderate UK muslim division of the faith based along Yazidi lines.Then the government has the nerve to intern Robinson while allowing your lot to do as and say whatever they like.That obviously including condoning violence to further the radical Wahabbist cause.No surprise there.

You totally misrepresent me, as is frequently your wont. I don’t follow the various denominations of Islam and don’t really care. I haven’t condoned violence to “futher the radical Wahabbist cause”, I said if groups of gangsters and hardmen turn up to harass and intimidate an entire community, and some people emerge from the crowd of that community to offer violence in return, then I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.

As for the Clarkson stunt.Maybe you should stand outside the Cardiff mosque calling for the right of gay marriage within it as the MSM likes to do so often in the case of Christian churches. :unamused:

To be honest, I just don’t care about the issue. People aren’t forced to attend churches or mosques, so if you don’t like it you vote with your feet. That’s not to say the various backward ways of religion should not be publicised, but that can be done by general purpose journalists - it does not require the formation of single-issue extremist groups and gangs of foot soldiers (themselves just as illiberal and in no alliance with those who would attend such churches or mosques).

The Church of England practically split in two over the issue of women bishops, but I don’t remember Tommy Robinson storming Canterbury Cathedral complaining about women’s rights. They complain about a minority of Muslim women wearing burkas and hijabs and so on, apparently regarding it as a sign of Muslim male oppression, and then proceed to harass and intimidate the same women they claim to standing up for.

135

When Rolf Harris, Stuart Hall and Max Clifford were tried for child ■■■ offences the police encouraged maximum publicity so other victims would come forward.

So why is it different when it’s a trial of Muslim child ■■■■■■ abuses?

136

Reading through some of these leftists replies ,Is appalling .He has got jail for reporting the truth ,He has upset the wrong people with the freedom of speech rallies .Some of your leftists ideals are responsible for this countries rapid decline .
Probably recent immigrants or not to long back …

137

albion:
I’m not sure if you can read this article or if it will appear behind a paywall.

thetimes.co.uk/article/how- … -5l5f8g00l

It’s written by Sarfraz Manzoor. I often think if you meet people like Sarfraz, seems fairly liberal, educated, Pakistani Muslim, then your views about integration are positive.

However, if you are unable to read the link, very briefly it’s about Glodwick in Oldham, not far from me. As one Muslim shop owner says, “if a white person was to walk down the street, I swear 9 out of 10 people would crane their neck to look”. At the women’s centre, they want to learn English but they admit they tell their children not to make friends with the white kids because they are afraid of their own culture being diluted and of western liberal influence.

As for most of the ethnic population is British, the article quotes an interesting exchange between the shopowner Imran and his cousin Eyaz.

Imran: tell him where you’ve been in the world.

Eyaz: Pakistan. That’s our country, isn’t it?

Imran: See what I mean? Typical. That’s our country. No, it isn’t. You were born here.

Eyaz: Our parents come from there.

Imran: Our parents do. But you don’t. Why don’t you move there if it’s your country.

If your experience is of Glodwick type places then you won’t feel that you are at home.

I’ve worked in Salford for 22 years and as an outsider, it’s interesting to look at. A mere ten years ago, you literally didn’t see a black person - Trafford down the road was black, Salford was white. Now somedays I feel like I’m I’m in the foyer at the United Nations. I’ve no idea if it’s good or bad, but the speed of change has been quite breathtaking and you couldn’t blame people that have spent 60 years living here, feeling that their life and culture had been eroded.

Maybe I’m lucky - where I live it’s a working class town, I know my neighbours, spoke to them yesterday whilst he hoovered his car and I cut the hedge, trotted across to see another neighbour whose wife has dementia - knowing how difficult it is, I call in now and again and he gets to have a chat that doesn’t rely on saying the same thing 25 times. Spoke to some dog walkers that I see regularly. My social customs haven’t changed much, maybe it’s a Northern thing and we are still a fairly white town.

So my feeling is that to go back to where I started, it depends a lot on the people you meet and their willingness to engage - and it has to be their willingness to engage because they are in England and there is an English way of doing things. If I head to live in Iran, then I have to start doing things the Iranian way.

It’s an unarguable fact that every Brit born Pakistani has Pakistani citizenship and retains their Pakistani nationality as part of that.That’s because Pakistan rightly applies the definition of Jus Sanguinis to its nationality laws just as a Brit born in India of Brit parentage during the Raj was still a Brit not an Asian.So technically Eyaz is right and I’ve got no problem with that just as I view myself as part Irish with Irish nationality having never been to Ireland in my life.

The bit that I and many others have a problem with is when numbers and concentrations of foreign ethnic groups reaches the point where they go for self determination and put their own into positions of power for ethnic reasons and start to apply ‘their’ cultural norms to the ‘indigenous’ population and expect us to kow tow to it.That’s human nature.In this case that’s also complicated by the equal unarguable fact that all the above includes radical Wahabbist etc type Islam being thrown into the mix and which needs outlawing in western society.

So there we have it if the integrationists really wanted integration they wouldn’t allow Islamic enclaves nor Muslims into government based on the resulting unrepresentative concentration of votes.Nor would they allow Wahabbist Islam.Instead enforcing a more moderate version here which is more in line with Western cultural expectations and turning Brit streets into little Islamabad or Riyadh ruled over by people like Kahn and other ethnic leaders ain’t integration.

So we either have multiculturalism which does what it says on the tin ( foreign communities,but limited in number to avoid any moves towards self determination and allowed limited autonomy to run themselves in their own areas and enclaves ).

Or monoculturalism ( integration ).In which case be careful what you wish for the former Yugoslavia being an example of the latter.

nativepakistan.com/wp-content/up … ritain.jpg

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Rjan:
You totally misrepresent me, as is frequently your wont. I don’t follow the various denominations of Islam and don’t really care. I haven’t condoned violence to “futher the radical Wahabbist cause”, I said if groups of gangsters and hardmen turn up to harass and intimidate an entire community, and some people emerge from the crowd of that community to offer violence in return, then I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.

I was clearly referring to the situation that Robinson’s sympathisers really want and unlike your commy rabble that isn’t mob rule.

As opposed to the law doing what’s needed in closing down Wahabbist influenced and funded Mosques and outlawing Sunni/Iranian Islamic revolutionary/Salafist Wahabbist Islam here.Rather than summary internment of the indigenous population so that May can keep her Saudi and Commy Chinese cronies happy. :imp:

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Rjan:

kcrussell25:
I watched one of his videos and he said (roughly as I can’t remember properly) 90% of grooming is done by Muslim men who make 4% of the population!

He might have said that, but it’s still preposterous. 90% of serious criminals in Britain are probably white, but it doesn’t mean anything like 100% of white people are serious criminals, or that serious crime is a culture amongst whites!

independent.co.uk/news/uk/h … 01941.html

There are many other links but this was the top. It needs addressing, deal with that 4% and you could stop 84% of grooming. Just because the figures make uncomfortable reading doesn’t mean they should be ignored.

I have no idea about you figures for the white population but given Tommy Robinson specifically looks at this one type of offense I don’t see the comparison. Should he target young black males as they are the most likely for knife crime in London?

I think Tacograph said it best. Whether you like him or not the fact that he can be locked up for 13 months without what appears a proper trial and opportunity of a defense and then the media told not to cover it is the scariest outcome of this whole matter

140

albion:
However, if you are unable to read the link, very briefly it’s about Glodwick in Oldham, not far from me. As one Muslim shop owner says, “if a white person was to walk down the street, I swear 9 out of 10 people would crane their neck to look”. At the women’s centre, they want to learn English but they admit they tell their children not to make friends with the white kids because they are afraid of their own culture being diluted and of western liberal influence.

Unfortunately I couldn’t read the link, but how is this different from white parents who tell their kids not to associate with those in school they see as troublemakers, undesirables, or of lower class? The reality is, you just let people do what they do, and be welcoming to those kids whose parents are more liberal, or those kids who simply take their parents’ admonitions with a pinch of salt. Unless the person is exercising power or a discriminatory practice is in the ascendancy - neither of which is true of marginal cultures originally from foreign societies - there is a case for simply turning the other cheek.

As for most of the ethnic population is British, the article quotes an interesting exchange between the shopowner Imran and his cousin Eyaz.

Imran: tell him where you’ve been in the world.

Eyaz: Pakistan. That’s our country, isn’t it?

Imran: See what I mean? Typical. That’s our country. No, it isn’t. You were born here.

Eyaz: Our parents come from there.

Imran: Our parents do. But you don’t. Why don’t you move there if it’s your country.

But that shows you that even within one family, conversations happen and even by the second generation the stronger view is that your country is Britain. And I’m guessing a key difference in attitude may well be the fact that Imran is a shop-owner, which is a position of status and economic security, and may have a young family of his own by now, and his cousin Eyaz may be in a totally different position, and that’s likely to affect attitudes and reflections.

If your experience is of Glodwick type places then you won’t feel that you are at home.

I’ve worked in Salford for 22 years and as an outsider, it’s interesting to look at. A mere ten years ago, you literally didn’t see a black person - Trafford down the road was black, Salford was white. Now somedays I feel like I’m I’m in the foyer at the United Nations. I’ve no idea if it’s good or bad, but the speed of change has been quite breathtaking and you couldn’t blame people that have spent 60 years living here, feeling that their life and culture had been eroded.

It depends what makes you feel at home I suppose.

Maybe I’m lucky - where I live it’s a working class town, I know my neighbours, spoke to them yesterday whilst he hoovered his car and I cut the hedge, trotted across to see another neighbour whose wife has dementia - knowing how difficult it is, I call in now and again and he gets to have a chat that doesn’t rely on saying the same thing 25 times. Spoke to some dog walkers that I see regularly. My social customs haven’t changed much, maybe it’s a Northern thing and we are still a fairly white town.

Indeed I don’t want to overstate the case, but I definitely feel like that’s something that’s changed over time, and the places where that sort of closeness still exists seem to have a number of families that have 20 or 30 years or more in the same houses or the same immediate area. And in one of the local streets I’m thinking about, it’s actually an Asian fella and his family (in an otherwise completely white street) who is one of the mainstays.

So my feeling is that to go back to where I started, it depends a lot on the people you meet and their willingness to engage - and it has to be their willingness to engage because they are in England and there is an English way of doing things. If I head to live in Iran, then I have to start doing things the Iranian way.

Indeed, but I can’t say I’ve got any experience of people not doing things “the English way”, nor of people being “unwilling to engage”. And I haven’t lived a sheltered life - I’ve encountered migrants and ethnic minorities from probably all backgrounds in both work and social contexts.