Tipping on break

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
41

Harry Monk:

Macski:
If I am forced by law to pull up in a lay by or service area to take a break I am not really free to do what I want with my time.

There’s no requirement for you to be able to do whatever you want with your time on a 45 minute break. Otherwise you’d be able to play an 18 hole round of golf with your mates, go for a ride on a preserved railway or get bladdered down the pub if you wanted to. That’s the weekly rest period you’re thinking of.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is a driver is free to dispose of his time as he wishes, wether a 15 or 45?

42

rambo19:

Harry Monk:

Macski:
If I am forced by law to pull up in a lay by or service area to take a break I am not really free to do what I want with my time.

There’s no requirement for you to be able to do whatever you want with your time on a 45 minute break. Otherwise you’d be able to play an 18 hole round of golf with your mates, go for a ride on a preserved railway or get bladdered down the pub if you wanted to. That’s the weekly rest period you’re thinking of.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is a driver is free to dispose of his time as he wishes, wether a 15 or 45?

Nope, that’s a requirement of rest, but not break, break is basically just not actually doing any work

43

stevieboy308:

rambo19:

Harry Monk:

Macski:
If I am forced by law to pull up in a lay by or service area to take a break I am not really free to do what I want with my time.

There’s no requirement for you to be able to do whatever you want with your time on a 45 minute break. Otherwise you’d be able to play an 18 hole round of golf with your mates, go for a ride on a preserved railway or get bladdered down the pub if you wanted to. That’s the weekly rest period you’re thinking of.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is a driver is free to dispose of his time as he wishes, wether a 15 or 45?

Nope, that’s a requirement of rest, but not break, break is basically just not actually doing any work

Exactly, this is possibly the most often mixed up rule in tacho legislation I think

44

njl:

switchlogic:
What physical location would it be illegal to take a break? The law is about activities rather than locations.

The drivers hours regs wouldn’t dictate directly what location is suitable, I agree.

If I understand your angle correctly you are suggesting that to have a defined place / time specified by someone else to take your breaks during a shift would be appropriate. I would say that for a regular set run that might work, but for a dynamic work schedule I can’t see it being practical.

If you were to ask a driver to leave a depot and drive 4 hours then take 45 at a nominated services on route, any delays on the road will eat into his / her remaining drive time with slow traffic or stop start, if the load wasn’t ready 1st thing the 6hr wtd could start to close up also. Sure you might plan a 45 after 3 hours to leave a good cushion but further though the day that will make more likely a second 45 being needed.

More to the point of the thread, getting a break in at a destination, you are at the mercy of the site if they want / need you there long enough to allow for a break, and for that to be legal you would have to be not involved with the process in hand for sufficient time.

I will offer 2 sites I’ve tipped at recently when loaned out on beer.

Site 1 in Dorset, booking time and staffed gatehouse, arrive a little early, 1 ahead of me being tipped, I manage a 15 while waiting. Once on the bay 2 FLT’s tipping me as fast as I can get the straps and curtains moved out of their way, no empties to go back so curtains done up, paperwork signed and I’m done. Next wagon waiting to take my space, so out of the yard, get a 30 in a layby 5 min away.

Site 2 in West London, intercom on barrier, press button until barrier opens, no conversation or pointer where to go next. Park where I can, go into transport office, give them paperwork and my registration. Warned it’s running slow, sit tight in cab, get a 15 in. 3 Hours later get asked to move to the canopy to be tipped, partly thanks to a gracious Downtons driver who told them I was before him when they went to tip him first. 1 FLT, each lift seems to travel some distance from the lorry so its slow, but I’m still moving straps and curtains as he needs them. I have a backload, so no empties on, buckle up and head to the t/o thinking I can get my paperwork. Instead asked to move off the canopy so next wagon gets in, no problem, need to wait for delivery to be checked. This takes a further hour, total on site 5hr15!

In essence the drops were the same, full load 1 drop, one had plenty of opportunity to get breaks in, the other was as efficient as you could hope for, but wanted you gone so they can carry that on for the next wagon. Now, had I had the Dorset experience in West London, I am back out the door but needing to find a location to park up for 30 or 45 min when I may only have limited drive time to play with. If you are there regularly that might be fine if you have some options ready in your mind, but not all of us do and perhaps is when you start to see wagons stopped on entry slip roads or the like.

Ok

45

switchlogic:
Exactly, this is possibly the most often mixed up rule in tacho legislation I think

Either that or the cluster ■■■■ that some come out with for the WTD breaks!!

46

switchlogic:

njl:
but some drivers are (rightly) steadfast that they choose the time and location of their breaks to suit them.

Why rightly tho when in almost every other job people are told when to have breaks?

I’ve made this point before on here before. I’ve never understood why drivers think they are exempt from being told when and/or where to have their breaks. As long as the company is planning your break within the legal requirements then they have every right to do this. The reality is this can very easily go to pot with hold ups, delays on the road, late departures, long tipping times etc. but point remains that just because you are a driver doesn’t mean you are excluded from being asked/told like millions of people up and down the country are.

47

switchlogic:

njl:

switchlogic:
What physical location would it be illegal to take a break? The law is about activities rather than locations.

The drivers hours regs wouldn’t dictate directly what location is suitable, I agree.

If I understand your angle correctly you are suggesting that to have a defined place / time specified by someone else to take your breaks during a shift would be appropriate. I would say that for a regular set run that might work, but for a dynamic work schedule I can’t see it being practical.

If you were to ask a driver to leave a depot and drive 4 hours then take 45 at a nominated services on route, any delays on the road will eat into his / her remaining drive time with slow traffic or stop start, if the load wasn’t ready 1st thing the 6hr wtd could start to close up also. Sure you might plan a 45 after 3 hours to leave a good cushion but further though the day that will make more likely a second 45 being needed.

More to the point of the thread, getting a break in at a destination, you are at the mercy of the site if they want / need you there long enough to allow for a break, and for that to be legal you would have to be not involved with the process in hand for sufficient time.

I will offer 2 sites I’ve tipped at recently when loaned out on beer.

Site 1 in Dorset, booking time and staffed gatehouse, arrive a little early, 1 ahead of me being tipped, I manage a 15 while waiting. Once on the bay 2 FLT’s tipping me as fast as I can get the straps and curtains moved out of their way, no empties to go back so curtains done up, paperwork signed and I’m done. Next wagon waiting to take my space, so out of the yard, get a 30 in a layby 5 min away.

Site 2 in West London, intercom on barrier, press button until barrier opens, no conversation or pointer where to go next. Park where I can, go into transport office, give them paperwork and my registration. Warned it’s running slow, sit tight in cab, get a 15 in. 3 Hours later get asked to move to the canopy to be tipped, partly thanks to a gracious Downtons driver who told them I was before him when they went to tip him first. 1 FLT, each lift seems to travel some distance from the lorry so its slow, but I’m still moving straps and curtains as he needs them. I have a backload, so no empties on, buckle up and head to the t/o thinking I can get my paperwork. Instead asked to move off the canopy so next wagon gets in, no problem, need to wait for delivery to be checked. This takes a further hour, total on site 5hr15!

In essence the drops were the same, full load 1 drop, one had plenty of opportunity to get breaks in, the other was as efficient as you could hope for, but wanted you gone so they can carry that on for the next wagon. Now, had I had the Dorset experience in West London, I am back out the door but needing to find a location to park up for 30 or 45 min when I may only have limited drive time to play with. If you are there regularly that might be fine if you have some options ready in your mind, but not all of us do and perhaps is when you start to see wagons stopped on entry slip roads or the like.

Ok

Lol

48

tmcassett:

switchlogic:

njl:
but some drivers are (rightly) steadfast that they choose the time and location of their breaks to suit them.

Why rightly tho when in almost every other job people are told when to have breaks?

I’ve made this point before on here before. I’ve never understood why drivers think they are exempt from being told when and/or where to have their breaks. As long as the company is planning your break within the legal requirements then they have every right to do this. The reality is this can very easily go to pot with hold ups, delays on the road, late departures, long tipping times etc. but point remains that just because you are a driver doesn’t mean you are excluded from being asked/told like millions of people up and down the country are.

The advice is to have a break from driving every 2 hours… brake.org.uk/get-involved/t … er-fatigue Now we all know that that every 2 hours is not practical, but if I start to feel fatigued, I should be and WILL be the one who decides that maybe I should pull in and have a break, not some pointy shoed tool who has never even sat behind the wheel of a 44 tonne killing machine.

49

shullbit:

tmcassett:

switchlogic:

njl:
but some drivers are (rightly) steadfast that they choose the time and location of their breaks to suit them.

Why rightly tho when in almost every other job people are told when to have breaks?

I’ve made this point before on here before. I’ve never understood why drivers think they are exempt from being told when and/or where to have their breaks. As long as the company is planning your break within the legal requirements then they have every right to do this. The reality is this can very easily go to pot with hold ups, delays on the road, late departures, long tipping times etc. but point remains that just because you are a driver doesn’t mean you are excluded from being asked/told like millions of people up and down the country are.

The advice is to have a break from driving every 2 hours… brake.org.uk/get-involved/t … er-fatigue Now we all know that that every 2 hours is not practical, but if I start to feel fatigued, I should be and WILL be the one who decides that maybe I should pull in and have a break, not some pointy shoed tool who has never even sat behind the wheel of a 44 tonne killing machine.

Not saying I disagree with you, but that’s not the point I was making. Drivers stubbornly refuse to believe they can be told when or where they are having their break and I was saying that’s not actually the case should a company want to go down that route with their drivers and that you are not except just because you are a lorry driver. You make the point about being fatigued and needing a break, well tin hat on here but you have a personal responsibility to make sure you are turning up in a fit state to work. As stated above, as long as the company are planning those breaks within the legal parameters then they are doing there bit.

I’ve personally never worked at a place where I was told and nor would I want to but that doesn’t make it wrong that some companies can and do.

50

[/quote]
I’ve made this point before on here before. I’ve never understood why drivers think they are exempt from being told when and/or where to have their breaks. As long as the company is planning your break within the legal requirements then they have every right to do this. The reality is this can very easily go to pot with hold ups, delays on the road, late departures, long tipping times etc. but point remains that just because you are a driver doesn’t mean you are excluded from being asked/told like millions of people up and down the country are.
[/quote]
The advice is to have a break from driving every 2 hours… brake.org.uk/get-involved/t … er-fatigue Now we all know that that every 2 hours is not practical, but if I start to feel fatigued, I should be and WILL be the one who decides that maybe I should pull in and have a break, not some pointy shoed tool who has never even sat behind the wheel of a 44 tonne killing machine.
[/quote]
Not saying I disagree with you, but that’s not the point I was making. Drivers stubbornly refuse to believe they can be told when or where they are having their break and I was saying that’s not actually the case should a company want to go down that route with their drivers and that you are not except just because you are a lorry driver. You make the point about being fatigued and needing a break, well tin hat on here but you have a personal responsibility to make sure you are turning up in a fit state to work. As stated above, as long as the company are planning those breaks within the legal parameters then they are doing there bit.

I’ve personally never worked at a place where I was told and nor would I want to but that doesn’t make it wrong that some companies can and do.
[/quote]
Fit state to work is a given. No matter how much daily/weekly rest you have had, driving can be monotonous and concentration levels in some can start to deteriorate after around 2 hours this is a well-known fact so it is basic common sense to have a break if this happens to you, you would be a total fool to listen to the planner who says you have to crack on, and if I got a planner like that everytime he rang me when on break , i would restart my break or switch my phone off until i was ready to start work again. We even have stickers in our vehicles warning us that it is our responsibility not to drive tired or unwell.

51

shullbit:
WILL be the one who decides that maybe I should pull in and have a break, not some pointy shoed tool who has never even sat behind the wheel of a 44 tonne killing machine.

Top tip- try working with the office, not against them, the job improves immeasurably when you do. They aren’t the enemy. As for the 44 tonne killing machine cliche……. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

52

switchlogic:

shullbit:
WILL be the one who decides that maybe I should pull in and have a break, not some pointy shoed tool who has never even sat behind the wheel of a 44 tonne killing machine.

Top tip- try working with the office, not against them, the job improves immeasurably when you do. They aren’t the enemy. As for the 44 tonne killing machine cliche……. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

I always endeavour to work with the office as you say, but the office also has to work with me, if I want a break I’m having one, my decision where and when.

53

Another question that if you have to ask well you know what I mean
The rules are there to be worked around and as long as you press the right mode as and when it suits you and is registered as a legal working day then what would you have to worry about
Is the job not hard and long enough without worrying about something that you more than likely will never ever got checked for
The question should read I’m on a bay in the middle of nowhere getting tipped should i put it on rest or poa or hammer, answer you should put it in whatever it benefits you most, simple

54

At the risk of forever being frowned upon on here, yes I do it regularly. Salaried, job & knock. Never had a word said. Yes it’s illegal but so is smoking in the cab :unamused: and so are many other things but we’re all different.

If I’m tired on a journey I’ll stop and make a brew, have a stroll. If I’m not I’ll crack on. Might have spent 15 minutes of my “break” undoing and fastening up the curtains but hey that’s an hour earlier finishing time with no effect on my driving whatsoever. If there was a Vosa van parked opposite to the loading bay then no I wouldn’t do it.

Otherwise I don’t see how they could know? Of course if you work for a company that knows your every move and whereabouts, with in cab cameras recording every time you break wind then your knackered.

55

md1987:
Otherwise I don’t see how they could know? Of course if you work for a company that knows your every move and whereabouts, with in cab cameras recording every time you break wind then your knackered.

Doesn’t have to be a company like that, we all have the cameras on trucks now recording for various amounts of time after the key is off and stored for who knows how long. Have heard of DVSA cross refing fuel and weighbridge tickets to tachos once they have a sniff of something, so wouldn’t be a big jump to do the same with camera footage.

56

Henrys cat:

md1987:
Otherwise I don’t see how they could know? Of course if you work for a company that knows your every move and whereabouts, with in cab cameras recording every time you break wind then your knackered.

Doesn’t have to be a company like that, we all have the cameras on trucks now recording for various amounts of time after the key is off and stored for who knows how long. Have heard of DVSA cross refing fuel and weighbridge tickets to tachos once they have a sniff of something, so wouldn’t be a big jump to do the same with camera footage.

In a similar way back in the day, maybe they still do. The French Gendarmerie used to get times a truck passed through toll booths to see if they were running bent. Partly why you’d see many trucks on the Nationals

57

DP. (Double post not ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■)

58

Henrys cat:

md1987:
Otherwise I don’t see how they could know? Of course if you work for a company that knows your every move and whereabouts, with in cab cameras recording every time you break wind then your knackered.

Doesn’t have to be a company like that, we all have the cameras on trucks now recording for various amounts of time after the key is off and stored for who knows how long. Have heard of DVSA cross refing fuel and weighbridge tickets to tachos once they have a sniff of something, so wouldn’t be a big jump to do the same with camera footage.

Also they can back reference your tracker to see where and how long you have been.
If you do the same job every day that always takes say 50 minutes to tip, but you have managed on your tacho to both tip AND have your break in those 50 mins,.and then there is an investigation after say a serious accident, then you are up that creek without that paddle.

Way I see it is why actually help ‘‘them’’ by leaving them an opportunity on a plate to ■■■■ up your day, let them dig if they want to do it.

I make covering my arse a way of life, I’ve learned over the years that you have to in this job. :bulb:

59

robroy:
I make covering my arse a way of life, I’ve learned over the years that you have to in this job. :bulb:

+1, big style. That’s the essence of modern HGV driving in a nutshell, ACE it, every day
Arse Covering Exercises :laughing:

60

Zac_A:

robroy:
I make covering my arse a way of life, I’ve learned over the years that you have to in this job. :bulb:

+1, big style. That’s the essence of modern HGV driving in a nutshell, ACE it, every day
Arse Covering Exercises :laughing:

Ah yes, known over here CYA, Cover Your ■■■. Practiced by most discerning truck drivers. :sunglasses: