Timesheet fraud

[mrflibble]

Since RobK is whinging about people not posting…

I’ve done a reasonable amount of agency work for a few different companies (who will remain nameless for reasons which will become apparent).

At a few places, I’ve been doing trunk runs in convoy with other drivers (who will also remain nameless). In a significant number of those cases, the other drivers have all put down inflated shift length times.

For example, we do a run to another RDC, where it takes about 8 hrs. However, in the words of another driver, “If we put down 8 hours, they’ll expect it done in 8 hours every night. The management thinks that it takes 10 hours, so that’s what we put.” One of the other drivers (a regular on that run) usually ends up submitting my run sheet for me, since I’m still a newbie, and he thinks he’s trying to help me out.

In at least one case, the security guard (the only person left back on site when we return) is in on it, and signs them off as getting back over 1 1/2 hours after they actually went home.

The employers are well-known large distribution companies, so in some respects, you may regard them as “soft” targets, but this is still technically fraud. I’m rather uncomfortable with this.

It’s not that I don’t want the money, but I’m more of the “honest day’s pay for honest day’s work” kind of guy. I don’t want to refuse to work for those clients, because the jobs are actually rather good, and the pay rate is pretty reasonable - it certainly beats dragging 8ft high pallets around uneven roads with a pump truck.

So, what should I do? I don’t want to be a whistleblower and spoil their cozy arrangement, since I don’t really care what they do (and let’s face it, if I did, I wouldn’t really want to be working there again), but I’d rather not be doing it myself. If I submit correct timesheets, people might smell a rat (“why is the agency guy doing it in 2 hours less than all the others?”).

Opinions?

[gurner]

Enjoy the money.

[tc]

Park Up arround the corner then! untill your time is up!

[daxi]

If you want to work for them again you don’t seem to have much option.
I know where you are coming from on this, I hate this kind of thing myself, mainly because I know that my luck being what it is, I’m just got to be caught.

[simonrs2k]

Gurner:
Enjoy the money.

Ditto that
go with the flow

[dave_1]

most if not nearly all of the large logistic companies and even some of the smaller ones will put a set time on a run . obviously this is based on the route, the speed limits on the route, a average tip time and the drivers breaks etc.
so if this firms drivers reckon its a ten hour trip then thats how long it takes AS AN AVERAGE.
we all know that a lot of runs can take a little less or a little more.
you could bet your life on it though that a driver who does a run on a monday will take 10 hours, but if it was a friday and they needed to be back early for whatever personal reason the they could do it in 7 hours.
i personally would not worry about it. past experience has taught me that where ever you work drivers will drag runs out, and some cut the times up and the average driver will do it as his own pace ( thats me )
personally if they are getting paid ten hours then so should you be.
and rememeber this, whilst drivers may get a bollocking for dragging a run out, no drivers would ever be thanked by a manager for carving a run up.
take the money unless its one of them fridays

[rob_k]

SimonRS2K:

Gurner:
Enjoy the money.

Ditto that
go with the flow

I’ll 3rd that.

Good post McFlibble. Company I was contracted for when I started out on class 2 didn’t give a toss. Often used to only have 9 or 10 hr days but I’d regularly put down 11, 12, 13 hrs. They never deducted breaks either.

It’s all about moderation. Everything’s good in moderation, just don’t get greedy coz that’s where you’ll trip up.

When I was contracted for Roadways we used to get sent to Southampton dock and back every night from Leeds. That’s [zb] tight! One guy (with very blue eyes and a large brown nose) used to go flat out non-stop from Leeds and get on the dock with 10-15 mins to spare; he reckoned he dipped the clutch down every hill . Sorry, but I don’t work like that and neither did all their other guys on nights. While he did Leeds-So’ton-Leeds in 10hrs (break whilst tipping/loading ) we used to take our time and take 13-14 hrs, giving us the opportunity to get an hour or so on the bunk instead. No-one ever said owt but the brown-noser was very much ‘disliked’.

Best way is to go with the flow then you can’t be singled out coz you’re doing the same as everyone else. Don’t be such a do-gooder!

Cheers.

[wiretwister]

Talk about horns of a dilemma!!!

If I was going to be paid job and finish then OK but what if you took more than the 10 hours expected? Would you then expect to get paid for the time above the 10?

Personally I take as long as I take some days the run will take 9 hours on others the same run takes 11. I have to swipe (electronicly) into the depot every time I enter and the pay is based on the final entry time + an allowance of 40 mins for the day end duties so the added time is not an issue.

[krankee]

We’re actually talking about three offences here.

1. False Accounting
2. Obtaining Property by Deception.

Both of which are offences under the Theft Act and punishable by imprisonment, together with,

3. Conspiracy to Defraud.

Which, being Contrary to Common Law, carries NO maximum penalty.

That said, Dave makes some valid points.

Either the local Manager is a total twerp unable to read tacho charts, OR,
he is running a smooth ship, attaining his targets, within the parameters laid down by Head Office, and has no wish to see anyone ‘Rock the Boat’. Remember that it is probably not he that sets the rates for the run and if he perceives that he has a reliable and dependable workforce, then perhaps he considers a little bit of ‘creative accounting’ as worthwhile.

One way to cover yourself would be to approach the Agency and agree with them that you will only do the run for a minimum of 10 hours. That way, you’ve covered your back.

[rob_k]

Krankee:
We’re actually talking about three offences here.

1. False Accounting
2. Obtaining Property by Deception.

Both of which are offences under the Theft Act and punishable by imprisonment, together with,

3. Conspiracy to Defraud.

Which, being Contrary to Common Law, carries NO maximum penalty.

No guesses for what your previous profession was, Ken

That said, Dave makes some valid points.

Either the local Manager is a total twerp unable to read tacho charts, OR,
he is running a smooth ship, attaining his targets, within the parameters laid down by Head Office, and has no wish to see anyone ‘Rock the Boat’. Remember that it is probably not he that sets the rates for the run and if he perceives that he has a reliable and dependable workforce, then perhaps he considers a little bit of ‘creative accounting’ as worthwhile.

One way to cover yourself would be to approach the Agency and agree with them that you will only do the run for a minimum of 10 hours. That way, you’ve covered your back.

Re last bit - too suss. They’ll start asking questions and then you find yourself with the old favourite saying ‘shooting yourself in the foot’ - something I’ve done myself on numerous occasions .

Cheers.

[eddie_snax]

Its a no brainer, if your concerned with drawing pay when not on duty? be on duty, maybe your permitted to do 56 mph on a motorway does’nt mean that you cant do 52mph or slower. When they look at the cards all they’ll see is that you were working. No worries steady driver taking care of the wagon and load .

[pat_hasler]

If you are that worried about making an extra quid here and there you are in the wrong job
Take as much as you can when you can because which ever company you work for will try and get what thay can out of you and pay you as little as possible
When I worked for Fed Ex based at Crick in the late 80’s I did a night trunk to Exeter and back and took 11 hours, making sure I got 2 hours sleep at the other end, plus an hour en-route, an agency driver replaced me when i took a week off and booked 8 hours each night, on my return I was hauled into the office and questioned about the extra 3 hours at time and a half every night, 3 days later they sent someone from the office with me, I had arranged a suitable delay at the Exeter depot, and called in at Nuneaton for the truck wash, stuck to all the limits etc and managed to make it last 11 hours, thus proving the interfering, cut throat agency driver must have been speeding

Thank you that man for wanting to put me out of work so that you could take my job it didn’t work

On the same company but a different contract 2 years later two of us would run to Ipswich doing a change over,we did one round trip first then ran back down for the night out at Bury st Edmonds, altering our night out each night, every week we got 60 hours plus 4 nights out, then some agency driver came along and did two round trips in one day, we analised hie tachos and found he was fiddling, he was barred from site.

If you interfere and cut up other drivers jobs you will get a very bad reputation, and loose a lot of friends, do as they do and book the extra

[davey_driver]

So I take it that this well known company does not use tachographs

It’s okay booking 10 hrs in for 8 hrs work, but the penny will drop eventually

I say follow your concience, then only you can accept the rewards or the punishment

[mrflibble]

Rob K:
Best way is to go with the flow then you can’t be singled out coz you’re doing the same as everyone else. Don’t be such a do-gooder!

I just knew you were going to call me that…

I don’t think that I’m “brown-nosing” particularly - I don’t rush around, I stick to limits (where possible; sometimes it’s a bit tricky when you’re following another driver in convoy because you don’t know where you’re going, and they start doing 56 down single carriageways), and I take as long as I need to do the job safely and properly. I want to be paid for the number of hours I’ve worked, but I don’t like submitting falsified claims to get more money.

Pat, yes, maybe I’m in the wrong job, but then driving isn’t my main job. My main job pays me more money than I need (although don’t tell my boss that ), and the money I get from driving is nice, but given that it makes up about 1% of my annual income, the extra £10-20 here and there makes very little difference. To avoid “taking jobs away from real drivers” I always insist on being paid full whack for the job (although I don’t really need the money), but this fraud goes against my conscience. Call me a do-gooder if you like, Rob, but that’s the way it is.

I wouldn’t have been booking 8 hours on your FedEx run, since I also would have stuck to the limits, but if you had been adding on an extra 3 hours every night that you hadn’t actually been working, then yes, you might have been caught out, since how is the agency driver to know how much to add?

It’s not about “carving the run up”, or rushing, or parking up just to use up time; I just want to do the job, do it properly, go home when I’ve finished, and get paid fairly for what I’ve done. Is that too much to ask?

There is also the “getting caught” issue. I don’t drive frequently enough to have my “ear to the ground”, so if, for example, a new manager were to come into the depot, realise what is happening, and start doing something about it, I’m likely to get caught. I’d rather not be caught doing something I didn’t want to be doing in the first place, but got pressurised into doing by the other drivers.

Krankee:
We’re actually talking about three offences here.

There’s always one smartarse…

Wiretwister:
If I was going to be paid job and finish then OK but what if you took more than the 10 hours expected? Would you then expect to get paid for the time above the 10?

One day we did take 10 1/2 hours (major accident on the route closed the road and we had to take a significant diversion). We claimed for 12 hours IIRC.

A question for the people who say “go with the flow”:

If you found out that your employer was deliberately falsifying records so that they could pay you less, would you
(a) find another employer
(b) take some other action
(c) do nothing and “go with the flow”

[rob_k]

MrFlibble:

Rob K:
Best way is to go with the flow then you can’t be singled out coz you’re doing the same as everyone else. Don’t be such a do-gooder!

I just knew you were going to call me that…

Well, it seemed like an opportunity too good to miss and you did leave yourself wide open…

There is also the “getting caught” issue. I don’t drive frequently enough to have my “ear to the ground”, so if, for example, a new manager were to come into the depot, realise what is happening, and start doing something about it, I’m likely to get caught. I’d rather not be caught doing something I didn’t want to be doing in the first place, but got pressurised into doing by the other drivers.

That’s why we say ‘go with the flow’. By doing that you can’t be singled out because everyone else is doing the same

A question for the people who say “go with the flow”:

If you found out that your employer was deliberately falsifying records so that they could pay you less, would you
(a) find another employer
(b) take some other action
(c) do nothing and “go with the flow”

Find another job, obviously.

Pat Hasler:
If you interfere and cut up other drivers jobs you will get a very bad reputation, and loose a lot of friends, do as they do and book the extra

Yep, this is so, so true. Good advice there Pat

Cheers.

[liberace]

Take the extra or get the agency to place you elswhere with a different excuse as to why you don’t like the job if your seriousley not happy their. I once worked for an employer who would take the wee wee. If you got the job done just in time, then he’d say well you got that done easy enough, you can do this as well . All the drivers their made sure they did the runs over expected time so he couldn’t take the ■■■■ - and we stuck togeather when he got stroppy about it . With us all talking the same talk, he couldn’t really alter the runs . Would you rather be chasing your arse off for them or pottering around reliatvley stress free in a nice little job? Because most employers will expect the maximum amount of work for the minumum outlay. Sorry for sounding so cynical about it, but that’s just been my experience .

[ralliesport]

So what about when you do less than 8 hours? are you still garanteed 8 hours?

I understand your dilema, but you can either go with the flow or get out. Do you send your tachos to your agency? if so they would question why your claiming for these extra hours. They would be defrauding the firm, not you, your only doing it to the agency (which is a bonus) My guess whould be management know about it but dont care because the job gets done and they dont want their drivers racing about trying to get done asap.

[quinny]

most if not nearly all of the large logistic companies and even some of the smaller ones will put a set time on a run . obviously this is based on the route, the speed limits on the route, a average tip time and the drivers breaks etc.

Wouldn’t disagree with that,because thats what they do at Exel at Sherburn.

Ken.

[steveo999]

…Read my signature below!!!..

[silver_surfer]

Let’s face it Driver’s wages for most transport companies are a piddling drop in the ocean. The multi-million pound company you work for prolly doesn’t give a toss that it’s costing them an extra £20 each night per driver as long as you don’t crash their £60,000 wagon, £30,000 trailer and quarter of a million pound load? Am I right?