The eu referendum- how do you intend to vote?

Carryfast:

scaniason:
Back to the black and white again, then?

How can the choice between Nation State or EU Federation be anything other than black and white.

As I said earlier, the final result comes down to a yes or no, but there are infinite shades of grey in the reasonings and arguments. You are the one who made the case that everybody supporting in is mutually supporting each other, yet the out supporters are allegedly all doing it from different standpoints. So in your words, if you’re supporting in, you’re supporting Cameron, but if you’re supporting out doesn’t mean you support BNP, Britain First, murdering scum etc. Its that argument that I’m taking issue with - after all if you’re lumping me in with the sane values as Cameron, based on one common point of agreement, then I’m afraid I’ll have to count you in with all the other right wingers, regardless of their methods.

Still want to go on? I’m setting off for home shortly, but I’m happy to continue later.

scaniason:

Carryfast:

scaniason:
Back to the black and white again, then?

How can the choice between Nation State or EU Federation be anything other than black and white.

As I said earlier, the final result comes down to a yes or no, but there are infinite shades of grey in the reasonings and arguments. You are the one who made the case that everybody supporting in is mutually supporting each other, yet the out supporters are allegedly all doing it from different standpoints. So in your words, if you’re supporting in, you’re supporting Cameron, but if you’re supporting out doesn’t mean you support BNP, Britain First, murdering scum etc. Its that argument that I’m taking issue with - after all if you’re lumping me in with the sane values as Cameron, based on one common point of agreement, then I’m afraid I’ll have to count you in with all the other right wingers, regardless of their methods.

Still want to go on? I’m setting off for home shortly, but I’m happy to continue later.

There is only one EU and one EU government system.Europhile means Europhile supporting the same EU Federation whether it’s Cameron or Corbyn.The relevant bit that they’ve all got in common is that they don’t believe in a Europe made up of seperate sovereign Nation States v those who do.That’s the black v white issue.

While the idea of deliberately confusing Eurosceptic/Nationalist with nutters like you’ve described would be the same as calling Socialist Europhiles supporters of the actions of the Red Brigades. :unamused:

Munchkin:
Carryfast

I said “If the UK quota was caught by UK boats using UK labour”

If you are going to deliberately misunderstand me could you at least do it in a humorous way?

Sent from my X17 using Tapatalk

Why can’t we use our immigrant labour force to do those jobs that the EU currently bans us from doing then?

They can’t very well moan about our breach of their stupid laws like “Quotas” and “exclusion zones” if we put the workforce FROM the EU that they TOLD us we have to take eh?

Winseer:

Munchkin:
Carryfast

I said “If the UK quota was caught by UK boats using UK labour”

If you are going to deliberately misunderstand me could you at least do it in a humorous way?

Sent from my X17 using Tapatalk

Why can’t we use our immigrant labour force to do those jobs that the EU currently bans us from doing then?

They can’t very well moan about our breach of their stupid laws like “Quotas” and “exclusion zones” if we put the workforce FROM the EU that they TOLD us we have to take eh?

What could possibly go wrong. :open_mouth: :laughing:

Carryfast:

scaniason:

Carryfast:

scaniason:
Back to the black and white again, then?

How can the choice between Nation State or EU Federation be anything other than black and white.

As I said earlier, the final result comes down to a yes or no, but there are infinite shades of grey in the reasonings and arguments. You are the one who made the case that everybody supporting in is mutually supporting each other, yet the out supporters are allegedly all doing it from different standpoints. So in your words, if you’re supporting in, you’re supporting Cameron, but if you’re supporting out doesn’t mean you support BNP, Britain First, murdering scum etc. Its that argument that I’m taking issue with - after all if you’re lumping me in with the sane values as Cameron, based on one common point of agreement, then I’m afraid I’ll have to count you in with all the other right wingers, regardless of their methods.

Still want to go on? I’m setting off for home shortly, but I’m happy to continue later.

There is only one EU and one EU government system.Europhile means Europhile supporting the same EU Federation whether it’s Cameron or Corbyn.The relevant bit that they’ve all got in common is that they don’t believe in a Europe made up of seperate sovereign Nation States v those who do.That’s the black v white issue.

While the idea of deliberately confusing Eurosceptic/Nationalist with nutters like you’ve described would be the same as calling Socialist Europhiles supporters of the actions of the Red Brigades. :unamused:

Sorry, you’re not having it both ways. You want to lump all IN voters together, I’m going to lump all OUT voters together - after all, there’s only two options in the ballot. Puts you in some very dubious company, from the NIMBY grannies to the ultra right nutters.

Some of us can see other options to staying in, rather than total submission, but to push for change to what is an imperfect system - but that of course doesn’t fit within your worldview.

Out without a shadow of a doubt. +1 the missus as well

scaniason:
Sorry, you’re not having it both ways. You want to lump all IN voters together, I’m going to lump all OUT voters together - after all, there’s only two options in the ballot. Puts you in some very dubious company, from the NIMBY grannies to the ultra right nutters.

Some of us can see other options to staying in, rather than total submission, but to push for change to what is an imperfect system - but that of course doesn’t fit within your worldview.

The Socialist mindset in action.I’ve lumped ‘all’ in voters together because they are ‘all’ unarguably voting for the idea of EU Federation over the Nation State.

There are two options on the ballot.Remain with the EU Federation or secede on the basis of the Nation State.

If you really must take that to extremes Hitler and Stalin were both Socialists trying to impose Socialist Federal rule on the Nation State starting with Poland. :unamused:

Having cleared that up good luck with now trying to paint Euro Sceptic or even Nationalist as ■■■■. :unamused:

At the moment the polls are showing Brexit slightly ahead.
If I remember correctly(please forgive me if I am wrong) Similar polls showed UKIP gaining alot of ground in the general election and it ended up being the same sort of voting this country has done for years ie a fight between the 2 major parties.

Im all for Brexit and as such will be voting that way but I can see alot of of people that say they are voting for Brexit will secretly put a cross in the remain box.

I really hope Brexit wins but I just cannot see it happening unfortunately.

montytom:
At the moment the polls are showing Brexit slightly ahead.
If I remember correctly(please forgive me if I am wrong) Similar polls showed UKIP gaining alot of ground in the general election and it ended up being the same sort of voting this country has done for years ie a fight between the 2 major parties.

You’re right about the 2015 general election, because of our first past the post system, even though UKIP got a lot more votes than ever before and beat the Liberal Democrat party in the overall number of votes, UKIP still only got 1 MP compared to the LibDems 8 :frowning:

The referendum is a very different beast, with all the votes lumped together rather than counting for different constituencies and only 2 options (Remain or Leave), I’m quite optimistic that we may get a “Leave” result.

Having said that polls can never be relied on.

Has anyone posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

Brexit The Movie anywhere on this forum??

I watched it.

Just makes me want ‘OUT’ even more… :imp:

OVLOV JAY:

alicks77:
No law that the EU has passed has had a detrimental effect on my life

I would like to know which law the uk government fought so hard but still had to accept. I believe the EU has been good for the uk.

fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-be … influence/

We’ve been defeated 72 times out of 72 objections, including how much uk tax payers have to contribute to the union. In the underworld the union would be called a protection racquet. Admittedly those 72 defeats are only 2 % of the votes cast, but it does smack of you’re either with us, or we’re doing it anyway

2466 times it went our way. It isn’t 72 it is 58. And all of thrm we actually agreed with the directive but not always with either the implementation or in the case of the 30 trademark directives with the surplus disbursement.

Not a single MP in the UK would ever get a 98% succes rate and only disagree with minor details of the remaining 2%

Goldfinger:
Has anyone posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

Brexit The Movie anywhere on this forum??

I watched it.

Just makes me want ‘OUT’ even more… :imp:

Yes 'cause Kelvin Mckenzie always tells the truth, just ask anybody in Liverpool, let alone the film maker has a history of being economical with the truth.

wheelnutt:

OVLOV JAY:

alicks77:
No law that the EU has passed has had a detrimental effect on my life

I would like to know which law the uk government fought so hard but still had to accept. I believe the EU has been good for the uk.

fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-be … influence/

We’ve been defeated 72 times out of 72 objections, including how much uk tax payers have to contribute to the union. In the underworld the union would be called a protection racquet. Admittedly those 72 defeats are only 2 % of the votes cast, but it does smack of you’re either with us, or we’re doing it anyway

2466 times it went our way. It isn’t 72 it is 58. And all of thrm we actually agreed with the directive but not always with either the implementation or in the case of the 30 trademark directives with the surplus disbursement.

Not a single MP in the UK would ever get a 98% succes rate and only disagree with minor details of the remaining 2%

That link contained 58, but we’ve been defeated another 14 times since. You could be a politician with that left wing spin. It’s not a case of being defeated 2% of the time, we’ve only objected 2% of the time. The fact is we’ve been defeated every single time we’ve objected. The whole point of this referendum is about democracy, and the fact the Eu has never stopped a law on objection, at best making concessions later and passing another vote, shows it’s an undemocratic process. Even if we’d made one objection and had a vote quashed, I couldn’t argue the point, but we’ve had 100% of our objections overruled. If you think that’s democracy, then there not much else I can say

OVLOV JAY:
You could be a politician with that left wing spin. It’s not a case of being defeated 2% of the time, we’ve only objected 2% of the time. The fact is we’ve been defeated every single time we’ve objected. The whole point of this referendum is about democracy, and the fact the Eu has never stopped a law on objection, at best making concessions later and passing another vote, shows it’s an undemocratic process. Even if we’d made one objection and had a vote quashed, I couldn’t argue the point, but we’ve had 100% of our objections overruled. If you think that’s democracy, then there not much else I can say

It’s not a case of how many times anyway it’s the question of unarguable foreign Federal,largely Socialist,rule over the Nation State.Which is why the Socialists are so keen on it. :bulb:

del trotter:
Yes 'cause Kelvin Mckenzie always tells the truth, just ask anybody in Liverpool, let alone the film maker has a history of being economical with the truth.

You mean just ask anyone in Liverpool whether they’d prefer the country to be ruled by a foreign Socialist dominated EU Federal government than people like Farage. :unamused:

tachograph:

montytom:
At the moment the polls are showing Brexit slightly ahead.
If I remember correctly(please forgive me if I am wrong) Similar polls showed UKIP gaining alot of ground in the general election and it ended up being the same sort of voting this country has done for years ie a fight between the 2 major parties.

You’re right about the 2015 general election, because of our first past the post system, even though UKIP got a lot more votes than ever before and beat the Liberal Democrat party in the overall number of votes, UKIP still only got 1 MP compared to the LibDems 8 :frowning:

The referendum is a very different beast, with all the votes lumped together rather than counting for different constituencies and only 2 options (Remain or Leave), I’m quite optimistic that we may get a “Leave” result.

Having said that polls can never be relied on.

On the other side of the coin is all the potential Europhile Socialist vote including LibDems,many of who didn’t vote at all in the GE and who see people like Juncker and Merkel as a better bet than trying to win a mandate within the national parliament.Added to the Conservative Cameron loyalists.IE an apples v oranges comparison in terms of the turnout figure.

Added to the fact that even if we ‘get our country back’ it’s actually owned by the banks who have no allegiance to this country.

IE realistically a leave vote ‘but’ with the realisation that the issue is probably a lost cause from 1973 when Heath effectively signed the country out of existence and into a state of a federal USE.The result of that fateful decision by the Cons being a massive force multiplier for those with Corbyn’s and Merkel’s agenda.Just as Altiero Spinelli intended.

Cut and pasted from elsewhere obviously, but worth a read…

Stronger in, Apparently NOT !Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army’s new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU ‘regeneration’ grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it’s Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn’t paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don’t even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven’t detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don’t even go there.
I haven’t mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that’s gone the other way, I’ve looked and I just can’t. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven’t read the party manifesto of The European Peoples’ Party.
2/ You haven’t had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don’t think it matters.

One thing people don’t like to mention, is the eu imports we “rely” on, are mostly products formally made in the uk, that have been passed out to the eastern block as our minimum wage legislation was to high for these firms. They’re worried that import tariffs will mean they have to return the manufacturing to the uk, meaning more British jobs. They uncertainty around the pound is all part and parcel of a process like this. A lot of it is just brokers dumping stock in the hope of using capital to pick up de valued stock later on. Next Thursday is our Berlin Wall moment

Turn again Whittington…

Right (or centerist?) for “Brexit the Movie”.

Left for “Lexit the Movie”.

Establishment Supporters: “Wrecksit the Movie”.

Just to provide everyone with a more balanced outlook. :grimacing:

OVLOV JAY:
One thing people don’t like to mention, is the eu imports we “rely” on, are mostly products formally made in the uk, that have been passed out to the eastern block as our minimum wage legislation was to high for these firms. They’re worried that import tariffs will mean they have to return the manufacturing to the uk, meaning more British jobs. They uncertainty around the pound is all part and parcel of a process like this. A lot of it is just brokers dumping stock in the hope of using capital to pick up de valued stock later on. Next Thursday is our Berlin Wall moment

Strange how with all the Labour Party preaching ‘workers rights’ benefits of EU membership all of that seems to be off their radar and even more strangely no calls for an EU wide minimum wage under Blair’s/Brown’s administration.