You sure it’s an orange Dave?
eagerbeaver:
You sure it’s an orange Dave?
Citrus of some sort. 
Do the Chinese make the steel for the tin openers from Wikos, we wore out 4 ( she had to fetch 2 more ) trying to open a fray bentos tin 
,one used to do the job 
I for one will never miss,loading at T-T-.same as the pits,good riddance
What really are the options, Tata port Talbot is losing 1 million quid a day, that is not a long term proposition, 97% of the ore used in Talbot is imported, we don’t mine it here anymore, primarily from the US, Canada and Australia, so we have an industry that imports just about all of its materials from 5,000-14,000 miles away and then turns it into a finished product. The industry is no longer UK owned, it was sold to the Indians/Thai’s, (pretty clever if you ask me….)
The foreign owners were banking on a growth in China and the rest of the far east of 20% a year, which has now dropped to 6-7% a year, still pretty darn good compared to what we are doing.
Talbot exported more overseas then the UK demand.That export has evaporated.
Iron ore production is labour intensive, it doesn’t really require a lot of know how, they did invest 300Mn in new smelters in the last 4 years, which was a bit of a waste and cost quite a bit in servicing that debt/investment.
Couple all that with a drop of 65% in the price of steel over the last 3 years and you have something unsustainable.
I cannot see how this industry in the UK could ever compete, Talbot is the last of the big furnaces/foundries left in Europe for a reason, Germany closed all of theirs and just keeps their specialised foundries open such as alumium, the Germans do spend 9 Bn a year to subsidise their industry, do we really want to spend that kind of money? Thousands per tax payer to keep a dying industry alive? Let’s be honest, do you want to add 1500 quid to your tax bill to keep the steel/coal industry alive■■? Of course not.
Throwing money at this, as some here want us to do, will that really keep it alive for the next 50 years? Of course not, you cannot compete with third world countries on price when it comes to labour intensive inefficient core heavy industries.
This is a turning point, this government is actually making a decision that has been long overdue, we can’t keep these industries going anymore, we can’t afford it.
Yes it is tough for a town like Port Talbot, but it is a decision that needs to be made, we have to own up to reality.
Steel and Coal is last century, we can’t keep that going anymore. Times have moved on. We have to focus on industries that can grow and add to our GDP, the old heavy industries aren’t it.
The stone age didn’t end because we ran out of rocks, we moved on.
When the UK started making steel, we had coal and iron ore to dig out of the ground. Those are either gone or too expensive, so we have outdated plant making a product that fewer and fewer people want.
I seem to remember that the strip mill in Port Talbot was going to close down years ago. It only survived because of taxpayer funded subsidies.
Santa:
When the UK started making steel, we had coal and iron ore to dig out of the ground. Those are either gone or too expensive, so we have outdated plant making a product that fewer and fewer people want.I seem to remember that the strip mill in Port Talbot was going to close down years ago. It only survived because of taxpayer funded subsidies.
And that is what is wrong, why do the plenty have to pay for job security of the few.
We can’t afford heavy industry in this country, all, and I mean ALL has to be shut.
Please Carryfast, don’t start this Marxist view of capitalism you guys call Fordism, the only thing you do is show your colors, you must be a union rep or at least a wannabe. You keep quoting the Marx/Lenin handbook to civil disobedience. The communist party would be, or is proud of you. It is guys like you that killed the old industries in this country, keep on going though, we capitalist love it, it kills what we need killing that so much quicker……
And don’t start on Neo-Fordism either, or the Keynesian school that the Labour/Socialist follow, I am more of a post modern Austrian economist, but then again you stopped reading anything to do with economics that was published after the 30’s, go read some of Hayek and you will be enlightened, you may even leave your marxist roots and join us in the modern world.
wishful thinking………
Dave the Renegade:
eagerbeaver:
Agree totally with you CF.Why does it feel wrong to agree with you though? Lol.
He moves the goalposts on every forum. One minute he’s arguing about supporting the cause, then he changes sides.
It’s just that I don’t think that Labour and its Socialist ideology is the right answer to the Cons economically suicidal crusade to turn us into a de industrialised wreck of a country dependent on imports. 
wheelnutt:
And that is what is wrong, why do the plenty have to pay for job security of the few.We can’t afford heavy industry in this country, all, and I mean ALL has to be shut.
Please Carryfast, don’t start this Marxist view of capitalism you guys call Fordism, the only thing you do is show your colors, you must be a union rep or at least a wannabe. You keep quoting the Marx/Lenin handbook to civil disobedience. The communist party would be, or is proud of you. It is guys like you that killed the old industries in this country, keep on going though, we capitalist love it, it kills what we need killing that so much quicker……
And don’t start on Neo-Fordism either, or the Keynesian school that the Labour/Socialist follow, I am more of a post modern Austrian economist, but then again you stopped reading anything to do with economics that was published after the 30’s, go read some of Hayek and you will be enlightened, you may even leave your marxist roots and join us in the modern world.
wishful thinking………
Blimey someone who’s all about supporting the Chinese Communist Party economic model,by dressing it up as the so called global free market economics,calling me a Socialist because I want to get back to the 1960’s US one. 
Although your hypocritical bs really sums up where we are under a so called ‘Capitalist’ Conservative government.Great if you’re at the top of the Communist Party zb pile but not so good for western workers.
Carryfast:
wheelnutt:
And that is what is wrong, why do the plenty have to pay for job security of the few.We can’t afford heavy industry in this country, all, and I mean ALL has to be shut.
Please Carryfast, don’t start this Marxist view of capitalism you guys call Fordism, the only thing you do is show your colors, you must be a union rep or at least a wannabe. You keep quoting the Marx/Lenin handbook to civil disobedience. The communist party would be, or is proud of you. It is guys like you that killed the old industries in this country, keep on going though, we capitalist love it, it kills what we need killing that so much quicker……
And don’t start on Neo-Fordism either, or the Keynesian school that the Labour/Socialist follow, I am more of a post modern Austrian economist, but then again you stopped reading anything to do with economics that was published after the 30’s, go read some of Hayek and you will be enlightened, you may even leave your marxist roots and join us in the modern world.
wishful thinking………
Blimey someone who’s all about supporting the Chinese Communist Party economic model,by dressing it up as the so called global free market economics,calling me a Socialist because I want to get back to the 1960’s US one.
I am the last person to support the CPC, mentioning Hayek is the clue, but it totally went over your head, no surprise really. Go read something that was published in say the last 70-80 years and come back in a week or two and we will talk again.
I got to get some sleep, ecstatic in the thought that as always only a few know what they are talking about, the rest just regurgitate old Marxist’s outdated points of view.
wheelnutt:
I am the last person to support the CPC,
Really you seem to be doing a good enough job of it to me.Shut down western industry in favour of cheap imports.So tell me where are these imports mostly coming from and was the 1960’s US economic model Fordist Capitalism or Marxist Socialism.Or was it what we’ve got now,which obviously benefits the Chinese Communist Party more than western workers.I’ve posted that pic of your hero again to answer as to who is and who isn’t the Marxist here.
In regards to US Shale, I don’t think they will survive to be honest. Iran are starting to export more oil which is driving prices down even further and adding to the over supply the world is experiencing.
The Chinese have made so much of the stuff its laying about rusting, and now there having to shut down there own steel plants. If they cant turn a coin at it, we’ve got little chance 
A person in the constrution industry that I talked to a couple of years ago told me that European steel was specified for a lot of framework here because the documention on quality that came with the Chineese steel was not worth the paper it was written on.
I tend to think of both sides of the coin, as a business man who wants to build with steel, i have to look at the quality and then the price, and make comparisons, of course not all expensive products are the best, or quality wise, but it depends on what i am building, and if i have to go abroad for my steel, at a price i can make a profit on, then i will. When i look at a new fridge, washing machine, or tv, i look at what is involved in those products, and then the price, in other words, if i want something i buy it, and sometimes without looking at the price. The same with buying clothes, lets face it we all buy from abroad, cars to white goods, because they are obviously cheaper, and not always of quality, which is why we look around ( thank god for the internet, which has opened the world to us )
Sadly we saw the demise of many of our industries, we used to make all white goods, most electrical goods, we made irons to tvs, clothing etc etc, in fact we manufactured almost everything, till we allowed the likes of China, Taiwan, India, etc, who could produce it cheaper ( because of low wages, and people working in sweatshops, we were also looking to buy the same product but at a lower price, because we were on a low wage,then when our wages started to rise, manufacturers couldnt compete with the low priced imports, and we were on a downward spiral, UK companies were moving to cheaper countries to make their product, the EU markets were looking for customers to sell their goods too, and decided to open up the EU further, in the hope it would solve a problem, it didnt, all it did was cause mass migration to where the same job they were doing would give them 2/3 times as much money, so the eastern bloc opened further, and here in the uk, they came in droves to earn what was to them a fortune, doing unskilled jobs in sometimes terrible environmemts, and at best, doing the jobs the lazy english didnt want to do, a cheap labour force, that has kept wages down in a lot of industries, unfortunately the steel industry is a casualty too, its been subsidised for years, till it was ripe for the foreigners to take over, now they too are struggling because of trade deals being done with china, and the workforce takes the brunt. I dont know how a company can survive losing £1 million a day, if you sacked most of the staff, they would still be losing money, and eventually its going to close, the same way the coal mines did, if a business cannot make a reasonable profit from its business, it has no choice but to close its loss making arm, that makes sense, Over the years i have witnessed many businesses close, and many being taken over, not by the english though, which is a great shame, i wont go into detail of how great this country used to be, what with the industrial revolution etc, that kept this country great and alive, but as they say, All good things come to an end ` and we have to move on, but i am sad that our gas, water, electric, trains and transport have all been sold off to foreign investors, and we now run the worst systems in the EU, the most expensive in the EU, and all to appease the shareholders, something that should and could have remained ours.
Alba1876:
The Chinese have made so much of the stuff its laying about rusting, and now there having to shut down there own steel plants. If they cant turn a coin at it, we’ve got little chance
Even Stevie Wonder could see that the Chinese are conducting economic warfare to undermine the Capitalist system taking advantage of the greed of the wrong type of Capitalism to do it.
The reason their own economy isn’t going anywhere is because the Communist/Socialist model views Fordism as decadence.In which the object of the Chinese leadership is to use its exploited under paid workforce,to over produce sub standard zb,to dump on the developed western economies,thereby collapsing the west’s industrial capability.Unless until that is the west finally sees sense by putting up trade barriers against the plan.
truckyboy:
I tend to think of both sides of the coin, as a business man who wants to build with steel, i have to look at the quality and then the price, and make comparisons, of course not all expensive products are the best, or quality wise, but it depends on what i am building, and if i have to go abroad for my steel, at a price i can make a profit on, then i will. When i look at a new fridge, washing machine, or tv, i look at what is involved in those products, and then the price, in other words, if i want something i buy it, and sometimes without looking at the price. The same with buying clothes, lets face it we all buy from abroad, cars to white goods, because they are obviously cheaper, and not always of quality, which is why we look around ( thank god for the internet, which has opened the world to us )
Sadly we saw the demise of many of our industries, we used to make all white goods, most electrical goods, we made irons to tv`s, clothing etc etc, in fact we manufactured almost everything, till we allowed the likes of China, Taiwan, India, etc, who could produce it cheaper ( because of low wages, and people working in sweatshops, we were also looking to buy the same product but at a lower price, because we were on a low wage,then when our wages started to rise, manufacturers couldnt compete with the low priced imports, and we were on a downward spiral, UK companies were moving to cheaper countries to make their product, the EU markets were looking for customers to sell their goods too, and decided to open up the EU further, in the hope it would solve a problem, it didnt, all it did was cause mass migration to where the same job they were doing would give them 2/3 times as much money, so the eastern bloc opened further, and here in the uk, they came in droves to earn what was to them a fortune, doing unskilled jobs in sometimes terrible environmemts, and at best, doing the jobs the lazy english didnt want to do, a cheap labour force, that has kept wages down in a lot of industries, unfortunately the steel industry is a casualty too, its been subsidised for years, till it was ripe for the foreigners to take over, now they too are struggling because of trade deals being done with china, and the workforce takes the brunt. I dont know how a company can survive losing £1 million a day, if you sacked most of the staff, they would still be losing money, and eventually its going to close, the same way the coal mines did, if a business cannot make a reasonable profit from its business, it has no choice but to close its loss making arm, that makes sense
That whole premise is based on the idea of free markets which expose domestic industry to cheap competition and the pointless idea of importing stuff that we can make for ourselves.On that note the so called ‘losses’ are only the result of trying to compete against cheap dumped imports where we don’t actually need to by just putting up barriers against them.As for the domestic products being more ‘expensive’ what does it matter if the domestic workforce is being paid enough wages to afford to buy them.
dozy:
Do the Chinese make the steel for the tin openers from Wikos, we wore out 4 ( she had to fetch 2 more ) trying to open a fray bentos tin
Was the fray bentos tin still in the boot of your car… 
Numbum:
A person in the constrution industry that I talked to a couple of years ago told me that European steel was specified for a lot of framework here because the documention on quality that came with the Chineese steel was not worth the paper it was written on.
they found out this is true in Canada last week when the only bridge linking east and west )nipagon)on the TransCanada highway buckled in the “cold” weather.
