Tachographs and incriminating yourself

Road transport is the only industry whereby an outdated piece of technology can land you in prison or with telephone number sized fines running abroad.
Debate one, the digital carbunkle is not thought out as the technology is ten years out of date, by losing two minutes each time the vehicle is stationary.
If stuck on the motorway in conestion or a road closure, you can’t have a break on the hard shoulder.
Debate two, ship’s captains and airline pilots have accidents, but their technology never makes them criminals.
Debate three, in the USA, they have no tachos as their constitution does not allow drivers to incriminate themselves.
Debate four, The EU laws are not fit for purpose to keep up with the times, for example, paying back compensation time three weeks later for rest.
In Canada and the USA the duty and driving times are longer, the speed limit is higher, but nobody is falling asleep at the wheel and crashing in to schools.
When a driver is hung, drawn and quarterd in a UK court, the media reports them as a rogue driver, a menace to society and other road users, the fact that he made an innocent mistake by a few minutes, the public do not understand and will ■■■■ up the sound bites from the court reports.

toby1234abc:
Debate one, the digital carbunkle is not thought out as the technology is ten years out of date, by losing two minutes each time the vehicle is stationary.

New ones don’t.

toby1234abc:
Debate two, ship’s captains and airline pilots have accidents, but their technology never makes them criminals.

They have black boxes which pick up everything.

toby1234abc:
Debate three, in the USA, they have no tachos as their constitution does not allow drivers to incriminate themselves.

Guess they’re lucky then.

toby1234abc:
Debate four, The EU laws are not fit for purpose to keep up with the times, for example, paying back compensation time three weeks later for rest.

Surely that’s more flexible thus benefiting the drivers.

toby1234abc:
UK court, the media reports them as a rogue driver,

Admittedly we do have a bad reputation here in Blighty.

In Britain drivers are forever being discriminated against, by government, by local authorities, by businesses we service, by the BBC, other road users.
Whilst out and about, how many signs do you saying no HGV’s, no drivers beyond this point,.
You drive to Aberdeen to deliver to one of oil companies, you get there late, but when get there, the first sign you see is no overnight waiting for HGV’s, the nearest place is Stracathro 20 miles back, which is a ■■■■ hole to say the least.
If any of these signs said no blacks, there would be an outcry and some yoghurt knitting do-gooder would be on tv shouting foul.
This discrimination has to stop

bald bloke:

toby1234abc:
Debate one, the digital carbunkle is not thought out as the technology is ten years out of date, by losing two minutes each time the vehicle is stationary.

You dont loose 2 Minute.

Tacho doesnt do with Seconds for Break. If you switch at 12.00 to Break it could be 12.00.01 or 12.00.20,or 12.00.50
a.) Just switch the Tacho at 11.59.59 to Break.

When you switch at 11.59.59 to start Break at 12.00 and count every Minutes loudly out you would count “1” at 12.01.
So the 45th Minute you would count at 12.46 !
b.) When you now switch to Other Work you would do that at 12.46.01

"Thats not 2 Minutes at all

toby1234abc:
Road transport is the only industry whereby an outdated piece of technology can land you in prison or with telephone number sized fines running abroad.
Debate one, the digital carbunkle is not thought out as the technology is ten years out of date, by losing two minutes each time the vehicle is stationary.
If stuck on the motorway in conestion or a road closure, you can’t have a break on the hard shoulder.
Debate two, ship’s captains and airline pilots have accidents, but their technology never makes them criminals.
Debate three, in the USA, they have no tachos as their constitution does not allow drivers to incriminate themselves.
Debate four, The EU laws are not fit for purpose to keep up with the times, for example, paying back compensation time three weeks later for rest.
In Canada and the USA the duty and driving times are longer, the speed limit is higher, but nobody is falling asleep at the wheel and crashing in to schools.
When a driver is hung, drawn and quarterd in a UK court, the media reports them as a rogue driver, a menace to society and other road users, the fact that he made an innocent mistake by a few minutes, the public do not understand and will ■■■■ up the sound bites from the court reports.

Ironic that in another thread you slagged off the BBC for their apparent lack of research then you post this mindless drivel. :unamused:

As a bit of equipment it won’t land you in jail. You’d have to fake your hours. That’s the driver’s actions.

Disagreeing with the driver’s hours and how they’re designed is a separate issue. I’d agree with you there. The box is just a silent witness. Most transport forms have monitoring,

Okey-Didley-Dokely:
In Britain drivers are forever being discriminated against, by government, by local authorities, by businesses we service, by the BBC, other road users & themselves
Whilst out and about, how many signs do you saying no HGV’s, no drivers beyond this point,.
You drive to Aberdeen to deliver to one of oil companies, you get there late, but when get there, the first sign you see is no overnight waiting for HGV’s, the nearest place is Stracathro 20 miles back, which is a [zb] hole to say the least.
If any of these signs said no blacks, there would be an outcry and some yoghurt knitting do-gooder would be on tv shouting foul.
This discrimination has to stop

Fixed that for you :open_mouth: :wink: :unamused:

Okey-Didley-Dokely:
Whilst out and about, how many signs do you saying no HGV’s, no drivers beyond this point

Is it cus you is black? :laughing: :laughing:

toby1234abc:
Road transport is the only industry whereby an outdated piece of technology can land you in prison or with telephone number sized fines running abroad.
Debate one, the digital carbunkle is not thought out as the technology is ten years out of date, by losing two minutes each time the vehicle is stationary.

Fixed a few years ago.

If stuck on the motorway in conestion or a road closure, you can’t have a break on the hard shoulder.

It won’t show movement or would show movement in line with such a thing which would allow you to have a valid reason to continue to the first safe place to stop.

Debate two, ship’s captains and airline pilots have accidents, but their technology never makes them criminals.

Yes it does. Aircraft have black box flight recorders which also record voice as well. They have been used to convict pilots. Ships also have onboard tracking and monitoring as well and again, these have been used to convict captains especially in cases like the Concordia. You can actually follow what ships are doing both historically and in realtime from the AIS monitoring. If you go here you can see all the ships in the Humber:
aprs.fi/#!lat=53.62000&lng=0.00000

IF you zoom in and click on a ship and click on info in the box that comes up you get something like this which is for the Forth Fisher, a tanker currently on its way to Aberdeen with an ETA of 13:00 on 4th January:

aprs.fi/info/i/234450000

You can see its status, sometimes what its carrying, its speed, its heading. You can view historic data as well including tracking and the dots in the track if you click on them and again click on info in the box that comes up, will give you the data for what it was doing at that point in its journey.

Debate three, in the USA, they have no tachos as their constitution does not allow drivers to incriminate themselves.

They have written logs and drivers have been convicted for not putting information in them or falsifying them. Did you not see them getting parked up and fined $100s at the roadside on Ice Road Truckers? Paper logs also allow employers to run drivers bent.

Debate four, The EU laws are not fit for purpose to keep up with the times, for example, paying back compensation time three weeks later for rest.
In Canada and the USA the duty and driving times are longer, the speed limit is higher, but nobody is falling asleep at the wheel and crashing in to schools.

UK domestic regs are worse and in the USA truck drivers are falling asleep. The rate of accidents for 18 wheelers in the USA is truly horrific compared to that over here in the UK. We have some of the safest roads in the world. Perhaps you should look at some accident statistics instead of merely guessing.

When a driver is hung, drawn and quarterd in a UK court, the media reports them as a rogue driver, a menace to society and other road users, the fact that he made an innocent mistake by a few minutes, the public do not understand and will ■■■■ up the sound bites from the court reports.

In a lot of cases that is because they are. I’ve never been in court as a truck driver and neither have the vast majority. When its a tragic accident as in the case of the bin wagon in Glasgow, it is reported as such. When it is something that is driver error, as the majority are, the driver is quite rightly castigated. If you don’t want to become a target of a newspaper article, don’t drive in a manner that’ll get you in them.

Conor
Slightly OT but how do you get that on google maps, I’ve just tried but can’t so I’m assuming it’s a program that uses Google maps

Reading some of these comments I wonder who are the drivers and who are the yoghurt knitters!?

As for the USA… I’m sure that one of our cousins will be along later but I think they or some use something called an E Log.

Fredthered

What’s a yogurt knitter?

I googled it and came up with “liberal” and a name for someone that rhymns with “tanker”

I’m not a do gooder. Just stating fact in answer to Toby’s discussion points.

The box won’t of it’s own accord and free will land you in jail. It doesnt think or try and trick you like some devious sprite. You’d have to have a track record of falsifying records/using magnets or hurting someone whilst over hours to be given a custodial sentence.

I have been open about my disdain for the construction of EU regs/WTD. Excessive environmental weight limits and nimbies , well I can’t stand that the same as the next man.

Other transport forms have more monitoring than a tacho depending what you’re talking about.

No idea about US constitution.

nick2008:
As for the USA… I’m sure that one of our cousins will be along later but I think they or some use something called an E Log.

Some do but its nothing close to a digital tacho. You can log out of an elog and if you do have the audacity to exceed your driving time for lets say 4 minutes, the company just alter it on their system and it never happened. In some ways they’re even worse than paper logs because with a paper log the driver is the captain of his own ship and the company can do nothing but squeal when you refuse to run bent, yet with an elog some firms are known to adjust things on their system and then intimidate the driver in to continuing.
I can only speak from my own personal experience and for me the best thing by far for the driver is a paper log book, but you have to have the backbone to stand up for yourself and not allow yourself to be bullied by the company and in fairness its an extreme minority of companies that will even ask you to run bent. Despite doing more work and more mileage than I ever did in the UK in a similar time frame, I’m far more rested, relaxed and un-stressed because of the constant pressure of keeping track of every minute I’m doing and worrying about finding somewhere to park before the tacho time bomb goes off and criminalises me. I don’t expect others to understand this though, most don’t know anything other than what they have now and quite frankly couldn’t cope with the freedom the job here allows.

robinhood_1984:

nick2008:
As for the USA… I’m sure that one of our cousins will be along later but I think they or some use something called an E Log.

Some do but its nothing close to a digital tacho. You can log out of an elog and if you do have the audacity to exceed your driving time for lets say 4 minutes, the company just alter it on their system and it never happened. In some ways they’re even worse than paper logs because with a paper log the driver is the captain of his own ship and the company can do nothing but squeal when you refuse to run bent, yet with an elog some firms are known to adjust things on their system and then intimidate the driver in to continuing.
I can only speak from my own personal experience and for me the best thing by far for the driver is a paper log book, but you have to have the backbone to stand up for yourself and not allow yourself to be bullied by the company and in fairness its an extreme minority of companies that will even ask you to run bent. Despite doing more work and more mileage than I ever did in the UK in a similar time frame, I’m far more rested, relaxed and un-stressed because of the constant pressure of keeping track of every minute I’m doing and worrying about finding somewhere to park before the tacho time bomb goes off and criminalises me. I don’t expect others to understand this though, most don’t know anything other than what they have now and quite frankly couldn’t cope with the freedom the job here allows.

^ This.Just like running under domestic UK regs was/is/would still be ‘if’ we dump the EU and everything it stands for including the ■■■■ idea of tachographs.

Conor:
Ships also have onboard tracking and monitoring as well and again, these have been used to convict captains especially in cases like the Concordia. You can actually follow what ships are doing both historically and in realtime from the AIS monitoring. If you go here you can see all the ships in the Humber:
aprs.fi/#!lat=53.62000&lng=0.00000

IF you zoom in and click on a ship and click on info in the box that comes up you get something like this which is for the Forth Fisher, a tanker currently on its way to Aberdeen with an ETA of 13:00 on 4th January:

aprs.fi/info/i/234450000

You can see its status, sometimes what its carrying, its speed, its heading. You can view historic data as well including tracking and the dots in the track if you click on them and again click on info in the box that comes up, will give you the data for what it was doing at that point in its journey.

All very well and good but it doesn’t in any way criminalise the watch keeping officers on that ship with regards working hours. The Forth Fisher will probably have 3 watch keepers, the Captain and a first and second mate. Their working hours will be kept on paper, so will those of the rest of the crew and they will undoubtedely be fabricated as there is no way that a crew can operate a vessel on short-sea work under the ridiculously restricted EU emposed 48hr week. What you will never see because of AIS is a coaster proceeding up to Goole from Spurn and dropping anchor in Hull roads because AIS is enforcing a legally required rest period as all watch keepers have exceeded their EU mandated 48hr working week. What you will see is the ship carrying on with no information whatsoever as to what times those watch keepers have worked. Its not the same as a tacho at all.
What is your personal first hand experience of the operation of a ship in coastal / short-sea work? I spent 3 and a half years working on German and British coasters so have more than a basic understand of what I’m talking about here,

They have written logs and drivers have been convicted for not putting information in them or falsifying them. Did you not see them getting parked up and fined $100s at the roadside on Ice Road Truckers? Paper logs also allow employers to run drivers bent.

UK domestic regs are worse and in the USA truck drivers are falling asleep. The rate of accidents for 18 wheelers in the USA is truly horrific compared to that over here in the UK. We have some of the safest roads in the world. Perhaps you should look at some accident statistics instead of merely guessing.

Again, what is your own first hand experience of North America beyond google and “Ice Road Truckers” ? All of your comments seem to me to be nothing more than carryfast’esque type quoting of google and other third party statistic to backup your own jumped up self righteous way of working, or more to the point, way of dodging work and nothing to do with real life.

I have worked on ships similar to what you quote with regards AIS signals and it has nothing to do with crew working times, its only useful for navigational accidents, it doesn’t condemn the ships cook to jail if he worked 49 hours last week, or the 2nd mate if he didn’t get enough sleep, it doesn’t know those things.

I have worked in the UK and Europe on paper and digital tachographs and experienced first hand the considerable pressure and stress of finding places to park in ever unfamiliar places, and can honestly say that I’ve never had so much as one tacho offence beyond over speeds, but its not a pleasant way to work, in my opinion.

As to the US/Canada, you tell us how dangerous the roads are and that trucks are crashing because of driver fatigue, yet you have no personal experience of this, you’ve never worked here, you don’t have the slightest clue what you’re talking about. We read just as often in the news about British trucks crashing because of driver tiredness. My own personal experience, which is what I have Conor, and you do not, is that driving here is much less fatiguing and stressful and that’s because we don’t feel like we’re under examination and scrutiny every second of our working day and if small mistakes are made, no one is going to hound us to the four corners of the country looking for a prosecution and an example to be made.

robinhood_1984:
All of your comments seem to me to be nothing more than carryfast’esque type quoting of google and other third party statistic to backup your own jumped up self righteous way of working, or more to the point, way of dodging work and nothing to do with real life.

To be fair my ‘agreement’ with your comments,concerning the difference between working under domestic regs with log books,as opposed to EU regs with tachos.Was actually based on first hand experience of my own in working under domestic regs as a council driver.Long after EU regs had been officially adopted and made compulsory here during the early-mid 1980’s for all/most other types of transport operations . :unamused: :confused:

Toby, stick to telling us how expensive the coffee is in the services instead of posting this utter tripe, ■■■■ for brains.

knight2:
Conor
Slightly OT but how do you get that on google maps, I’ve just tried but can’t so I’m assuming it’s a program that uses Google maps

Yes that’s right. I’ve not looked into it but I think Google has an API that people can use in their webpages. The website then overlays the APRS/AIS etc data onto that so it does the placement of the icons, the traces etc rather than Google.

The round blue “WX” ones can be quite useful. They’re weather stations and will indicate wind direction and speed including gusts. Given that a lot of these are in private ownership its best to check a few in an area. Certainly one near me records wind speeds a lot lower than they actually are. Quite handy for doing things like seeing if its too bad to take out a double decker. :wink: