Suttons Tankers Dispute

[uktramp]

robroy:
A bit of a position change there mate, I always had you down as anti Union after previous posts and comments on the subject.

No position change rob, I do not agree with unions as they currently stand, I also think that unions are a waste of time now since they lost members and people are only to willing to work under poor terms and conditions. How can a union with limited support do anything about this? Even though Sutton’s may have full membership numbers of union members it is a fact that they may as well stand alone for what good a weak union can give or deliver them. If every driver was a union member and they stood together over pay and conditions then we wouldn’t be in this situation of long hours and low pay to begin with, most drivers think they are earning good wage with a top line of £500 per week. This is only achievable for most by working 15 hr days and by tramping including their night out money as wages. Where were the unions when all this was being passed as normal? Those in the fortunate positions of having a decent number have remained silent throughout as they don’t want to rock the boat.Through this stance they are now targeted themselves, you tell me how anyone will now have any sympathy or support for these much higher paid drivers, welcome to the rat race m8. A strong union is what is now needed to end this downturn but as said, that horse has indeed bolted. I feel sorry for these drivers and they have my sympathy but that is as far as this dispute will get them. You think Sutton’s is a good employer? I say there is no such thing nowadays rob.

[uktramp]

muckles:
Agreed, but Sutton’s drivers are in a union and you seem to be saying it’s futile to try?
We can’t wait for every driver to join a union and be willing to stand for better pay and conditions; it’s up to those already organised to stand for themselves.

Very true muckles but unfortunately the unions are weak under these conditions, the only way to pick and win a fight like this is through solidarity by the many not by the few as is with this case. Every driver working today would like better pay and less working hours but that is now only a pipe dream. The tide has turned and will not return unless every single driver is willing to do something about it. Those of us who would be prepared to do this knows that there is a thousand not prepared to do it.

[the_maoster]

^^^ There is no change in ownership of this company (Suttons) mate, the only change is the steadily downward spiral of conditions brought about by successive managers who believe all the bull they read in their “How to be a manager” Ladybird books.

[beetlejuice]

the maoster:
^^^ There is no change in ownership of this company (Suttons) mate, the only change is the steadily downward spiral of conditions brought about by successive managers who believe all the bull they read in their “How to be a manager” Ladybird books.

Hopefully it will all implode on them.excuse the pun

Has anyone looked into the legality of them firing people to then take them back on there own agency ?And who in there right mind would go back to such a bunch of greedy bell ends like that ?

[albion]

robroy:
Cheers Dave, just as I thought then, not a five minute job.

So that training time taken to get drivers up to press just after qualifying, multiplied by however many drivers, THEN having to gain a bit of experience to be able to do the job efficiently is quite a lot of time.

If tanker work becomes paid on the same rate as general, where is the incentive to train for it, and more so why are the likes of Suttons ■■■■■■■ their drivers about like this, rather than looking after them, as I’m sure they are also all too aware of the points I have just made .
It just beggars belief.

Because other firms are doing it for less money and the customer knows that.

Like I said before, talking to a Lynch’s tanker driver the other week and he’s on 0.39p an hour more than my van drivers. The wages on tankers round here are ridiculous.

I’m not saying it’s right, but hauliers can’t get their rates up. Thinking about it, I’ve been hearing the same conversation for about 50 years. Some people might have had good dates back in the 60-70s, but not hauling lime out of Dove Holes quarry they didn’t.

[muckles]

UKtramp:

muckles:
Agreed, but Sutton’s drivers are in a union and you seem to be saying it’s futile to try?
We can’t wait for every driver to join a union and be willing to stand for better pay and conditions; it’s up to those already organised to stand for themselves.

Very true muckles but unfortunately the unions are weak under these conditions, the only way to pick and win a fight like this is through solidarity by the many not by the few as is with this case. Every driver working today would like better pay and less working hours but that is now only a pipe dream. The tide has turned and will not return unless every single driver is willing to do something about it. Those of us who would be prepared to do this knows that there is a thousand not prepared to do it.

This dispute seems to involve about 30 employees, not just drivers, but also workshop staff, on just one contract, Sutton’s are far bigger than that, so if all their employees or even if just their tanker side are heavily unioned and stick together on this, they can cause a great deal of trouble for Sutton’s.

And as I said before,
For the Sutton’s drivers do to nothing will guarantee failure, although its a slim chance, if they stand they just might succeed.
I’d be willing to take those odds considering the alternative would be losing 30% of my pay and if you lose your job trying you’ll probably be no worse off on agency or any run of the mill haulage job anyway.

[eagerbeaver]

If nothing more, I hope these lads inspire a bit of fight in other drivers.

[albion]

eagerbeaver:
If nothing more, I hope these lads inspire a bit of fight in other drivers.

What would you think was realistic for a per hour pay?

[eagerbeaver]

albion:

eagerbeaver:
If nothing more, I hope these lads inspire a bit of fight in other drivers.

What would you think was realistic for a per hour pay?

Do you mean for Sutton’s, or a wider question in general mate?

[tiredandemotional]

albion:

eagerbeaver:
If nothing more, I hope these lads inspire a bit of fight in other drivers.

What would you think was realistic for a per hour pay?

Whatever they’ve been getting paid up to now has obviously been regarded as realistic so that plus inflation @3% just to stand still would be the target.

[albion]

EB, T&E, I meant the wider picture, say general haulage and then say ADR work.

[merseycool]

N.I Express:
It is all very well going on strike to preserve terms and conditions , however it is ultimately the consumer who eventually pays for pay which may be above the going rate . In theory it is impossible to be underpaid as if this was the case , you would simply leave your current position and take on a postion with a new employer who will value your years of experience , . Another option is to set up on your own ( though I guess those who go on strike prefer to absolve themselves from the reality of running a businness on commercialy acceptable terms ) .

With regard to the large blue chip logistic operators this is probably what a large number of customers want these days . The process of moving goods from A to B adds nothing to the value of a businness and as such companies will want this service undertaken in the most cost effective manner possible . The blue chip logistic operators must be getting most things right , otherwise they would not survive .

Whilst I can understand drivers felling annoyed at terms and conditions being amended , maybe they should be gratefull that the existing terms lasted as long as they did . It is likely that the commercial reality of life dictates that paying a premium of 30 % compared to current markt rates is no longer justifiable or sustainable .

We will never be grateful for how long our terms & conditions lasted. We fought for these, they were not simply given and we will continue to fight for these terms & conditions.

You just carry on being subservient to your master. Whilst we keep fighting

[carryfast]

UKtramp:
Very true muckles but unfortunately the unions are weak under these conditions, the only way to pick and win a fight like this is through solidarity by the many not by the few as is with this case. Every driver working today would like better pay and less working hours but that is now only a pipe dream. The tide has turned and will not return unless every single driver is willing to do something about it. Those of us who would be prepared to do this knows that there is a thousand not prepared to do it.

The obvious question for rob to answer in that case is does he view the old fashioned 1970’s idea of the closed shop as a militant abuse of union power ?.If so why and again who gains from that ?.

Which then leaves the next question is the idea of ■■■■■■■■■■ union ballots for action actually just a licence to scab and a no vote just a form of scabbing.Bearing in mind even Rjan agrees with the principle of some being able to vote down strike action at the expense of others who want to go for it.( Miners’ strike ).In which case what’s the difference between that and crossing a picket line ?.Also bearing in mind that employers don’t need a ballot decision for deals with union negotiators which go in their favour.

[eagerbeaver]

albion:
EB, T&E, I meant the wider picture, say general haulage and then say ADR work.

For me personally, I don’t believe any man or woman should step into an artic for less than £10 per hour, regardless of market forces.

As for specialist roles, it’s difficult to say. Nights/weekends/days/4on4off etc, all play a part obviously in differing rates. Location is also another factor too.

It’s all academic though Albion if people are willing to work for crap rates of pay I know that you pay a decent rate for your guys, and you come across to me as someone who works hard and wants your employees to prosper, as well as you and your own.

This to me is a hallmark of a decent and ethical person. But as we all well know, these larger transport concerns seem to love the non-job pointy shoe wearers, who believe the ■■■■■■■■ they spout. Until drivers start boycotting these idiotic race to the bottom types, nothing will change.

What’s your view Runcorn dweller?

[muckles]

albion:
EB, T&E, I meant the wider picture, say general haulage and then say ADR work.

I never been in favour of an across the board pay deal, the same way I’ve not been in favour of an industry wide strike.
Drivers need to take actions against the worst in the industry, especially if they’re the big players, as they really dictate what the industry baselines are. Then we let market forces decide, but with an upward pressure from drivers to counter the downward pressure from the client.

As you said yourself earlier on, if the customer wants a rate reduction the only thing that can give is wages, but if you have a situation where they can’t force wages down, then they either have to find another way to reduce costs or they don’t take the contract, but if other hauliers are in the same situation of not be able to reduce rates at the expense of the workforce, there comes a point where there customer can’t push for lower rates as nobody will take the work.

[albion]

Well Warrington dweller, I think £10.00 an hour is a bit low for a start. But as you say, location accounts for variation. ADR/specialist, maybe 20% more of whatever figure you arrive at for general.

One of the hardest things is to weigh up the many different pay scales , shift bonus, allowances, to get a comprehensive answer. Wasn’t until I came on here that I realised I was unusualish in paying through breaks.

Indeed if people are going to work for carp money, it doesn’t help. I get the same thing, other hauliers working for carp money.

I honestly have no idea what the answer is, it’s been the same all my life.

Edit, I’m not in favour of across the board either, muckles. I was just wondering since EB is a neighbour*, what he thought was a decent hourly rate.

*argument ensues as EB claims that Warrington is nowhere near Runcorn, either geographically or socially

[eagerbeaver]

albion:
Well Warrington dweller, I think £10.00 an hour is a bit low for a start. But as you say, location accounts for variation. ADR/specialist, maybe 20% more of whatever figure you arrive at for general.

One of the hardest things is to weigh up the many different pay scales , shift bonus, allowances, to get a comprehensive answer. Wasn’t until I came on here that I realised I was unusualish in paying through breaks.

Indeed if people are going to work for carp money, it doesn’t help. I get the same thing, other hauliers working for carp money.

I honestly have no idea what the answer is, it’s been the same all my life.

Edit, I’m not in favour of across the board either, muckles. I was just wondering since EB is a neighbour*, what he thought was a decent hourly rate.

*argument ensues as EB claims that Warrington is nowhere near Runcorn, either geographically or socially

Whenever I watch a Pirates of the Caribbean film, I imagine that ship crewed by the dead sailing down the Mersey into Warrington with various Windmill Hill hands on deck. Personally I think that Trump’s wall should be erected at Daresbury, not the Mexican border.

As regards pay though, the reason I say a conservative £10 as a minimum is as you well know, there are loads of hauliers offering far less in our region. As Muckles rightly alludes, the big players are influential in wages, and the green death in particular employ a lot of drivers around here. Ironically though, their pay is not too bad in comparison with the other cack employers

[albion]

I once went through Windmill Hill , not by choice. Not sure what it was, interbreeding, affect of chemicals, but it were right scarey!

So you are working on what you think is fair for this area. Is that the same as what you think you should be paid. Would you be happy at £10.00 an hour, or feel you are worth more?

[beetlejuice]

Even xpo are paying £11.68 days and £12.38 nights with no adr needed around the West Midlands .I think it is £10 on the 3.5 t vans at DPD Hinkley .
Obviously it is down to the area though.
who wants to do Adr for anything less .What is the point ■■?

[robroy]

eagerbeaver:
For me personally, I don’t believe any man or woman should step into an artic for less than £10 per hour, regardless of market forces.

As for specialist roles, it’s difficult to say. Nights/weekends/days/4on4off etc, all play a part. Location is also another factor too.

It’s all academic though Albion if people are willing to work for crap rates of pay

Until drivers start boycotting these idiotic race to the bottom types, nothing will change.

Can’t argue with any of that mate.

You and me are usually on the same wavelength on this type of stuff, but as you point out, there are a few cases with mitigating circumstances for guys working on a lower wage than they perhaps should be working for ideally.

You know who I work for bud, and we both know they aint exactly famous for being top payers, or for a charitable attitude towards their drivers either tbh. (although tbf my depot aint TOO bad)

In my case 2 of my previous 3 jobs, all outbased, 2 abroad and 1 in SE England, were very good payers, they looked after me in many ways, and my attitude towards them reflected that, until redundancy hit me…twice.

Thing is I was faced with the situation that jobs in my area are all about the same, so I had no choice in having to take a pay cut, and a reduction in t.s and c.s. into the bargain.
I hated it at first but stuck it out, set my own paces, and managed to make a good number for myself which suited me.
Then a couple of years ago a Dutch firm who I had previously pestered, rang me saying I was still on their records and was I still after a job.
I weighed the situation up and decided although I would be better off financially, I was happier what I was doing, not hassled, and definitely home more often, so I stayed put.

So mate, I’d reckon I’m on your list of drivers willing to work for a not too brilliant firm, for maybe not a crap wage, but certainly an inferior wage in comparison to what I was offered, and what I had previously been used to.
But like we said mate, mitigating circumstances, which I decided were enough just to carry on with it.