I worked for a small company that got taken over by a big company. One of our lads had worked for them in the past and immediately left stating how much he hated their ways and planners. Thing is he worked for them 8 years ago. Their wage was less than he was on then by £2 an hour. If that isn’t contempt for the driver I don’t know what is.
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Olog Hai:
N.I Express:
It is all very well going on strike to preserve terms and conditions , however it is ultimately the consumer who eventually pays for pay which may be above the going rate . In theory it is impossible to be underpaid as if this was the case , you would simply leave your current position and take on a postion with a new employer who will value your years of experience , . Another option is to set up on your own ( though I guess those who go on strike prefer to absolve themselves from the reality of running a businness on commercialy acceptable terms ) .With regard to the large blue chip logistic operators this is probably what a large number of customers want these days . The process of moving goods from A to B adds nothing to the value of a businness and as such companies will want this service undertaken in the most cost effective manner possible . The blue chip logistic operators must be getting most things right , otherwise they would not survive .
Whilst I can understand drivers felling annoyed at terms and conditions being amended , maybe they should be gratefull that the existing terms lasted as long as they did . It is likely that the commercial reality of life dictates that paying a premium of 30 % compared to current markt rates is no longer justifiable or sustainable .
As long as the haulage industry has people with opinions like yours and adam277’s in it, it is consigned to a never-ending race to the bottom, with drivers bearing the brunt of constant cost-cutting.
And not only should they accept it, they should welcome it!
+1 …and they do mate, they do.
So the rest of us will just carry on suffering because of it.
It needs to be a large majority of like minded people to deter firms from dishing out unfairness, but unfortunately that majority has dwindled over the years that I’ve been in the job.
Unfortunately it has nearly dwindled to the point where the tables have turned to the point where these guys are nearly the new majority in the job, with little or no fight in them.
So the odd one or two that are left who will speak up, are written off and labelled as militant troublemakers (which fits in nice with their agenda btw) where as in reality all they are asking for, and expecting, is a bit of respect and fairness. …nothing more nothing less.
…apart from not being routinely treated like dog crap on someone’s shoe.
N.I Express:
It is all very well going on strike to preserve terms and conditions , however it is ultimately the consumer who eventually pays for pay which may be above the going rate.
How much less do you think the end consumer will pay if these drivers have to accept a 30% pay cut?
N.I Express:
In theory it is impossible to be underpaid as if this was the case , you would simply leave your current position and take on a postion with a new employer who will value your years of experience , . Another option is to set up on your own ( though I guess those who go on strike prefer to absolve themselves from the reality of running a businness on commercialy acceptable terms ).
They aren’t saying they’re underpaid; they’re trying to protect the pay levels they have.
Maybe its other drivers who are feeling underpaid?
The sensible ones are looking at these drivers and are looking to either get their pay increased, or get themselves into better paid jobs.
However if you’re not very clever and a bit short sighted, you’d probably look with envy at the better paid drivers and hope they fail, so they end up getting paid the same as you, not realising that will give your boss an excuse not to raise your pay, because he knows you can’t go elsewhere.
N.I Express:
With regard to the large blue chip logistic operators this is probably what a large number of customers want these days . The process of moving goods from A to B adds nothing to the value of a businness and as such companies will want this service undertaken in the most cost effective manner possible . The blue chip logistic operators must be getting most things right , otherwise they would not survive .
Transportation is a necessary expense that is factored into the cost, if it wasn’t necessary then the Blue Chip companies wouldn’t bother with it,
Also if transport was such a major cost factor, then these Blue Chip companies wouldn’t centralise their production, where they have a longer supply and distribution chain, instead they’d have smaller production units serving smaller regions.
The fact is the cost of distribution is more than offset by having a large scale production facility.
N.I Express:
Whilst I can understand drivers felling annoyed at terms and conditions being amended , maybe they should be gratefull that the existing terms lasted as long as they did . It is likely that the commercial reality of life dictates that paying a premium of 30 % compared to current markt rates is no longer justifiable or sustainable .
They should be grateful? 
They weren’t given those pay and conditions by some benevolent company, they negotiated them, they stuck together to get them.
But yes let them take a 30% pay cut, serves them right for being greedy, let them get the pittance of pay that many drivers are on, after all they should know their place. 
If they lose their 30% the market won’t stop at that, it will be another group of who are paid 20% more forced to reduce their pay next, then 10% and then those who were on a pittance and accept it because “it’s market forces,” will be asked to take a pay cut, because they can’t compete with those firms who’ve reduced their wages and so on and so on.
^^^hallelujah
Spot on Muckles, I don’t look on drivers with better terms hoping they lose it all, my thought is how the hell do i get on there and join them.
If there weren’t the better jobs to strive for then God knows how ■■■■ poor the pay would be now for everyone.
The simple fact of the matter is that one way or another this contract will continue, the drivers who are attempting to force Sutton’s to continue to pay the rates that they were taken on and have kept is of no consequence to this contract. The drivers will force themselves out of a job by standing against these terms. Sutton’s will either lose the contract to another haulier who pays a lower rate, or keep it by reducing the costs. You cannot expect them to keep it and run it at a higher cost than they can afford to pay out. Simple economics will rule the day, it is a sad fact that drivers are not respected or given any credit for being good bad or indifferent, all drivers are classed as simply a driver. Accept the terms or find another job, I don’t agree with it but it is a fact. More qualified people than drivers are put in this position regularly and the job will continue regardless. The end result will be the same for every single driver working, this is now unfortunately a common theme that is affecting even the best and most lucrative of driving jobs. Only thing that can stop this now is for every single driver to join the union and stand by your fellow workers and strike with them. If you have any sense at all then this is what should happen, simple fact, strop moaning about it if your not prepared to do anything about it. You don’t have to put up or shut up, simply unite and stand together. You know this will not happen.
merseycool:
One manager at the plant recently said to a driver, I come to work with a shirt & tie and you don’t deserve to paid more that me. That is their ideology !!!
And there we have it.
The old Class system is still alive and well in the good old UK eh? 
That guy personifies the type of pompous, self centred up their own arse type wonkers who look upon drivers (or in fact any other employees) as like I said before, ■■■■ on their shoes…I hate those type of Tom Tuckers with a vengeance.
Mr Ashley of Sports Direct (and unfortunately NUFC) is a prime example.
All this contempt has to stop, we are quickly heading back to the 20s 30s and as I said before even Victorianesque t.s and c.s in our work place.
This is the kind of stuff that was the catalyst for the Trade Union movement in the first place, but the 70s attitudes of superiority among Unions when they lost their way is taking a long time to forget, and this is THE reason we are having this conversation about this particular case.and many others in the first place.
I bet John Sutton is fed up,He pays 27m for Imperial Tankers from Hargreaves who at the time said they concentrating on there core business ie tipping work.
Presumably they were excluded from returning to tanker work for a 3 year period,but as soon as that ended they are back under the name Halcyon Tankers a trading style of Hargreaves.Halcyons O license is in Hargreaves name.
So presumably they have retendered for this work that they were so glad to be rid of forcing Sutton’s to reduce his rates to keep the job.
robroy:
merseycool:
One manager at the plant recently said to a driver, I come to work with a shirt & tie and you don’t deserve to paid more that me. That is their ideology !!!And there we have it.
The old Class system is still alive and well in the good old UK eh?
That guy personifies the type of pompous, self centred up their own arse type wonkers who look upon drivers (or in fact any other employees) as like I said before, [zb] on their shoes…I hate those type of Tom Tuckers with a vengeance.
Mr Ashley of Sports Direct (and unfortunately NUFC) is a prime example.All this contempt has to stop, we are quickly heading back to the 20s 30s and as I said before even Victorianesque t.s and c.s in our work place.
This is the kind of stuff that was the catalyst for the Trade Union movement in the first place, but the 70s attitudes of superiority among Unions when they lost their way is taking a long time to forget, and this is THE reason we are having this conversation about this particular case.and many others in the first place.
Youre right Rob, and its being repeated by certain newspapers and politicians ad infinitum. When right wing politicos make a speech referring to the mistakes of Unions in the past itll be widely reported. When left wing politicos make a speech about global corporate tax avoidance itll hardly rate a mention. Who owns the papers and what are their agendas? The drip drip of snide remarks about Unions from certain quarters has an effect.
A truly unbiased voice? Well, I dont know where there is one. But Im sure if its published by Murdoch it wont be biased in favour of we workers.
Everyone in the broadcast and print media has an agenda of some sort, so do politicians, so do we plebs of it comes to it, with us plebs its trying to keep our heads above water.
The answer is to find alternative sources of information, from different countries too, and somewhere between the two extremes you might get an idea what’s going on.
We’re at war, the genuine working class are under attack once again, the first victim of war being the truth.
UKtramp:
The simple fact of the matter is that one way or another this contract will continue, the drivers who are attempting to force Sutton’s to continue to pay the rates that they were taken on and have kept is of no consequence to this contract. The drivers will force themselves out of a job by standing against these terms.
How many times has we seen a workforce accepted lower pay and conditions because they’ve been told “it will save their jobs”, only for them to lose their jobs a few months later?
UKtramp:
Sutton’s will either lose the contract to another haulier who pays a lower rate, or keep it by reducing the costs. You cannot expect them to keep it and run it at a higher cost than they can afford to pay out. Simple economics will rule the day, it is a sad fact that drivers are not respected or given any credit for being good bad or indifferent, all drivers are classed as simply a driver. Accept the terms or find another job, I don’t agree with it but it is a fact. More qualified people than drivers are put in this position regularly and the job will continue regardless. The end result will be the same for every single driver working, this is now unfortunately a common theme that is affecting even the best and most lucrative of driving jobs.
The truth is we don’t know is Suttons is really losing money on this contract, are Nynas unhappy with them and they’ll lose the contract anyway and not just over money.
This dispute seems to affect about 30 workers, not just drivers, but workshop staff as well, but when Suttons took over Imperial Tankers they acquired over 200 trucks and over 300 trailers, plus what they had in their own fleet, so this seem to be a relatively small contract So surely if Nynas were pushing them to reduce rates below an economic level wouldn’t they just say get somebody else anyway?
Is this pay cut about something bigger is there another agenda behind it?
Is it a test to see if they can force it across the board?
UKtramp:
Only thing that can stop this now is for every single driver to join the union and stand by your fellow workers and strike with them. If you have any sense at all then this is what should happen, simple fact, strop moaning about it if your not prepared to do anything about it. You don’t have to put up or shut up, simply unite and stand together. You know this will not happen.
Agreed, but Sutton’s drivers are in a union and you seem to be saying it’s futile to try?
We can’t wait for every driver to join a union and be willing to stand for better pay and conditions; it’s up to those already organised to stand for themselves.
For the Sutton’s drivers do to nothing will guarantee failure, although its a slim chance, if they stand they just might succeed.
I’d be willing to take those odds considering the alternative would be losing 30% of my pay and if you lose your job trying you’ll probably be no worse off on agency or any run of the mill haulage job anyway.
robroy:
Are there that many ADR/Tanker trained drivers around? Suttons are a big co afaik with many drivers…and how long does it take to qualify by the time you get all your different ADR tickets.I’ve had ADR before but it expired about 15 yrs ago.
I wouldn’t have a clue how to start to load and discharge a tanker trailer, I would reckon the majority of drivers are the same, so it maybe wouldn’t be such an easy short term fix as you think.Specialised driving jobs should carry specialised rates…as they always have on the whole
Hi robroy,
I’ll try to answer a couple of your points…
Yes, Suttons can be said to be ‘large’ in terms of their presence in the tanker transport market.
A full ADR course including the tanker module would take 5 days in a classroom to complete, but unfortunately, that qualification is only the very start of what’s needed.
After qualification, there is a huge legally required duty of care on the employer to provide suitable and sufficient training on the exact tanker that our newly ADR qualified tanker driver is to drive.
Additionally, there must also be suitable and sufficient training to be given on the exact nature and preventative safety measures needed for the exact substance to be carried.
As a very rough guide, I’d say that one month of additional training by the employer is an industry average for a complete newbie, however that’s an average because of the variables, so sometimes more (or less) training is required.
At the end of the additional training process, somebody (sometimes this means more than one person) has to sign off on it, which finally allows our new driver to ‘fly solo.’
It’s fair to say that, for a completely new tanker driver, this is not a quick process.
robroy:
UKtramp:
Other drivers will be queuing at Sutton’s gates for these jobs and the majority will be experienced drivers who will be able to raise their current wages even from the 30% cut as it stands.That leaves agency drivers and non union drivers left, so how is this strike ever going to make any difference. .
Are there that many ADR/Tanker trained drivers around? Suttons are a big co afaik with many drivers…and how long does it take to qualify by the time you get all your different ADR tickets.
I’ve had ADR before but it expired about 15 yrs ago.
I wouldn’t have a clue how to start to load and discharge a tanker trailer, I would reckon the majority of drivers are the same, so it maybe wouldn’t be such an easy short term fix as you think.Specialised driving jobs should carry specialised rates…as they always have on the whole
Yep loads of drivers with tanks and packages many new drivers are doing an adr as part towards the cpc. I recently sat a course only one other driver had any experience driving all new pass or waiting to for test and did adr 1st
Edit except 2 who only did packages and two cores who drove vans for a cannon hygiene
Cheers Dave, just as I thought then, not a five minute job.
So that training time taken to get drivers up to press just after qualifying, multiplied by however many drivers, THEN having to gain a bit of experience to be able to do the job efficiently is quite a lot of time.
If tanker work becomes paid on the same rate as general, where is the incentive to train for it, and more so why are the likes of Suttons ■■■■■■■ their drivers about like this, rather than looking after them, as I’m sure they are also all too aware of the points I have just made .
It just beggars belief.
robroy:
This is the kind of stuff that was the catalyst for the Trade Union movement in the first place, but the 70s attitudes of superiority among Unions when they lost their way is taking a long time to forget, and this is THE reason we are having this conversation about this particular case.and many others in the first place.
No rob we’re having this conversation ‘because’ people thought/think that 1970’s style union power was/is too much power.It’s a binary choice powerful unions or powerful employers there’s no middle ground.
Franglais:
Youre right Rob, and its being repeated by certain newspapers and politicians ad infinitum. When right wing politicos make a speech referring to the mistakes of Unions in the past itll be widely reported. When left wing politicos make a speech about global corporate tax avoidance itll hardly rate a mention. Who owns the papers and what are their agendas? The drip drip of snide remarks about Unions from certain quarters has an effect.
A truly unbiased voice? Well, I dont know where there is one. But Im sure if its published by Murdoch it wont be biased in favour of we workers.
Ironically rob was actually making the case for the employers’ side regarding ‘militant’ 1970’s trade unionism.So even he to an extent has swallowed the propaganda and is part of the problem.
Here’s some ‘militant’ 1970’s trade unionism in action.Compare that with what we’ve got and why wouldn’t workers,as opposed to the employers,want to go back to that regime.IE who really gains from union restraint.
robroy:
Cheers Dave, just as I thought then, not a five minute job.So that training time taken to get drivers up to press just after qualifying, multiplied by however many drivers, THEN having to gain a bit of experience to be able to do the job efficiently is quite a lot of time.
If tanker work becomes paid on the same rate as general, where is the incentive to train for it, and more so why are the likes of Suttons ■■■■■■■ their drivers about like this, rather than looking after them, as I’m sure they are also all too aware of the points I have just made .
It just beggars belief.
I fail to see where it beggars belief rob? All of what Dave has said is for a new industry entry driver with no experience, plenty of other drivers with adr licences who could easily take these positions up. Don’t rule out that a big percentage of the Sutton’s existing drivers will be willing to return to the conditions imposed as they would still have a good number. The damage of recruiting other drivers is not that big of a deal to these companies who probably have 30 or so ADR drivers CV’s sat on their desks waiting right now. It will not be a good outcome to this for the drivers, they are their own worse enemy. It’s a shame but more shameful on drivers in general. No one is going to be overly concerned as I have repeated before. The industry has come to this and will not get any better until people actually do something about it, splinter groups of union members have very limited power or carry much weight over matters. Only a full revolution of unions could ever revive this situation and that horse has long bolted.
UKtramp:
robroy:
Cheers Dave, just as I thought then, not a five minute job.So that training time taken to get drivers up to press just after qualifying, multiplied by however many drivers, THEN having to gain a bit of experience to be able to do the job efficiently is quite a lot of time.
If tanker work becomes paid on the same rate as general, where is the incentive to train for it, and more so why are the likes of Suttons ■■■■■■■ their drivers about like this, rather than looking after them, as I’m sure they are also all too aware of the points I have just made .
It just beggars belief.I fail to see where it beggars belief rob? All of what Dave has said is for a new industry entry driver with no experience, plenty of other drivers with adr licences who could easily take these positions up. Don’t rule out that a big percentage of the Sutton’s existing drivers will be willing to return to the conditions imposed as they would still have a good number. The damage of recruiting other drivers is not that big of a deal to these companies who probably have 30 or so ADR drivers CV’s sat on their desks waiting right now. It will not be a good outcome to this for the drivers, they are their own worse enemy. It’s a shame but more shameful on drivers in general. No one is going to be overly concerned as I have repeated before. The industry has come to this and will not get any better until people actually do something about it, splinter groups of union members have very limited power or carry much weight over matters. Only a full revolution of unions could ever revive this situation and that horse has long bolted.
A bit of a position change there mate, I always had you down as anti Union after previous posts and comments on the subject. 
Btw…‘The beggars belief’ bit was that an old well established firm like Suttons, which for as long as I’ve driven (and long before that) were always considered a good reputable company, would lower themselves to using the type of appalling policies in terms of abuse of drivers, that the notorious companies in the job (no james) are infamous for.
Call me naive, but I thought they were better than that, and above it.
robroy:
Call me naive, but I thought they were better than that, and above it.
If what I’m being led to believe (straight from Suttons employees) is correct then a number of Suttons employees in the North West were given 90 days notice prior to Christmas. Curiously these guys have been offered their same jobs back via agency on much reduced T’s & C’s!
Oh, the agency in question is owned and operated by Suttons!
Good employer? Don’t make me laugh.
If there has been a recent change in ownership of this company , they may have no option but to review all the costs involved in running the operation . If there are bank borrowings involved , it maybe that it is necessary to send monthly management accounts to the head office for review and the bank itself may review . If the %age ratio of wages cost to income is vastly different to other companies in the sector the question will be asked why and more to the point is it justifiable .