ROG:
From the way I see this…
There are the policies of the employer and the the tacho laws
If the employer pays for the 3 hour ‘part of daily rest’ bit, is that illegal 
If not illegal, then the whole of the 15 is paid for and it is kept within the tacho laws
or have I missed something… again 
I would imagine that it would be legal for an employer to pay you for 24 hours a day if they so wished ROG, though it would probably look a bit suspicious as far as tacho laws are concerned I would have thought but never the less probably legal I imagine.
But that does not alter the fact that you legally have to have a daily rest period, and that daily rest cannot be working time which is what Davey Driver doesn’t seem to have the intelligence to understand.
This is the question that was replied to, someone asking how you could work 15 hours, presumably he meant legally.
if I’ve got this right ( which i doubt) 9+3 is 12 which leaves only 12 hours in 24! so how can you work 15?
You cannot legally work 15 hours duty time unless you have a reduced daily rest, it may be the simple answer to say that you can but unfortunately that doesn’t make it legal.
A technicality maybe but still not legal or even possible if you’re complying with the regulations on daily rest.
Like I said simple is good but only if it’s also correct.
Rog there’s nothing stopping an employer paying for breaks
Basically there’s 2 options for a company to consider when one of their drivers are delivering to an RDC such as Tesco’s (After all they have the worst reputation)
Option 1
Pay the Driver POA to sit for 3 hrs waiting to get called onto a bay, after all, when he booked in he was told it would be 3 hrs minimum, at the end of his 15hr shift he needs to take a 9 hr reduced daily rest which of course he can only do on 3 occassions in any fixed week.
Option 2
Pay the driver to sit on break for 3 hrs whilst he sleeps on the bunk etc whilst waiting to be called to a bay, once he has completed his 15 hr shift he can take a reduced daily rest but, because he has had 3 hrs rest already its no longer classed as a reduced daily rest, therefore his employer could get up to 3 extra 15 hr shifts in a week.
Of course an even better example is the Container Guys who are sitting waiting for the Container to be emptied or loaded knowing they will be there more than 3 hours,
POA is a total waste of time and just a back door way around the total working time
And for the sake of the pedantic, when I refer to working a 15 hr shift I am referring to the length of time the chart for that shift is in the Tachograph not the length of time the driver is doing physical work E.G Timesheet Start 06:00 finish 21:00 = 15hrs
Davey Driver:
tachograph:
You seem to be implying that when the chart or card is in the tachograph it’s working time or duty time and cannot be a daily rest period or part of a daily rest period, this would mean that anyone who leaves a driver card in over night doesn’t have a daily rest which is of course total rubbish.
Hang on a minute, where the Hell have I implied that you cannot leave a chart in overnight?
All I have stated is that once a chart has been removed after a 15 hr shift !!!
Obviously you are now getting desperate if your having to try and twist things to suit FFS
Neither desperate nor trying to twist anything, you’ve consistently implied that when the chart/card is in the tacho it’s working or duty time which legally it clearly isn’t, well not necessarily anyway.
The difference between you and me in this thread is that you clearly believe that the simple answer is the best regardless of it’s accuracy, and admittedly there are times in life when that would be right, however I think that if people are aware of the legality of a situation they themselves can decide weather or not they wish to comply with the regulations.
A question was asked about how you could work 15 hours when having a split shift, the question appears to be regarding the tacho laws, you may see it as gobbledegook but never the less the legal answer is that you can’t, maybe not the simple answer but never the less the legal one.
If the person who asked the question is told the correct answer that’s the answer that will keep them within the law, he/she can then decide weather or not they choose to work legally, obviously that’s their decision to make based on facts and not what may appear to be the simple answer.
Pedantic maybe, but like I said simple is good if it’s also correct.
tachograph:
Pedantic maybe
Oi, you stick to doing your thing and leave the pedantic stuff to me, that’s my thing.
Coffeeholic:
Oh, and just for the record if any one asked me how many hours I worked each day last week I would have answered 14 - 15 as I just count work from the time I either insert the digi card or enter start country to the time I either enter end country or remove the card, or 15 minutes either side of insertion or removal. Regardless of what the mode switch says during that period I am ‘at work’.
If my chart/card was in the tachograph for 15 hours including a 3 hour part of the daily rest, I too would probably say I’d been at work for 15 hours if asked.
Unless the person asking the question was a VOSA examiner or the police, in which case I’d say I’d been working 12 hours that day, especially if I’d already used up my quota of reduced daily rests
tachograph:
If my chart/card was in the tachograph for 15 hours including a 3 hour part of the daily rest, I too would probably say I’d been at work for 15 hours if asked.
Oh so now you use the same term as me ■■? 
tachograph:
Unless the person asking the question was a VOSA examiner or the police, in which case I’d say I’d been working 12 hours that day, especially if I’d already used up my quota of reduced daily rests
Of course you would, after all Vosa are incapable reading charts and seeing that 3 hrs Rest was recorded during the 15 hrs
That is the whole issue here, regardless of any terms used in speech or text, if 3 hrs has been recorded as rest the driver is only required to have a 9 hr reduced daily rest
To reply to any further posts in this thread will be pointless as everything has been covered and its just going over old ground.
Davey Driver:
tachograph:
If my chart/card was in the tachograph for 15 hours including a 3 hour part of the daily rest, I too would probably say I’d been at work for 15 hours if asked.
Oh so now you use the same term as me ■■?
OK perhaps I should have said "I too would probably say I’d been at work for 15 hours if asked outside of a forum named “SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTERACTIVE)”
Davey Driver:
tachograph:
Unless the person asking the question was a VOSA examiner or the police, in which case I’d say I’d been working 12 hours that day, especially if I’d already used up my quota of reduced daily rests
Of course you would, after all Vosa are incapable reading charts and seeing that 3 hrs Rest was recorded during the 15 hrs
Well if they’d already checked the records they probably wouldn’t be asking would they.
Or would they check to see if you knew the legal difference between break and daily rest, I’ve no idea weather or not they would ask, it was a hypothetical answer
Davey Driver said;
after all Vosa are incapable reading charts and seeing that 3 hrs Rest was recorded during the 15 hrs
No I’m not 
Although I cannot speak for others.
I do recall some years ago reporting a driver for insufficient daily rest when he had a 3.5 hour and a 8.5 hour daily rest. The solicitor argued that the driver had taken sufficient rest; 12 hours each portion at least one hour and one portion at least 8 hours. However, the problem was that he was also using the 3.5 hour as a break from driving, which under the ‘old’ (and still current AETR) rules he couldn’t do. Therefore he was actually short on daily rest by 45 minutes. This situation doesn’t happen under EU regs now as the rest periods may be treated as breaks from driving
geebee45:
Davey Driver said;
after all Vosa are incapable reading charts and seeing that 3 hrs Rest was recorded during the 15 hrs
No I’m not
Although I cannot speak for others.
Read it fully mate and you’ll actually see I was being Sarcastic, of course Vosa would see the breaks tallied up