Split daily rest....... Confirmation

[tachograph]

JON LAD:
can someone confirm if this is correct, reference to split daily rest.
We attended a course recently, and i wish to confirm something.

After driving up to your daily limit i.e 4.5 hours driving 45 min break 4.5 hours driving … Once you have then had 3 solid further hours rest ( 1st part of daily split rest you can then begin driving again ■■? … tagging the other 6 hours split daily rest on the end of a further shift ■■?

Or have i mis understood the Ex vosa / traffic police guy instructing
the course ■■?

Either you or your company should ask for a refund because it seems like the instructor doesn’t have a clue

If he’s really ex VOSA / traffic cop then that just makes it worse

[knight]

if I’ve got this right ( which i doubt) 9+3 is 12 which leaves only 12 hours in 24! so how can you work 15?. I was under the impresson the only way you could work a week of 15 hour shifts was if you took a spilt WEEKLY BREAK mid week, but then you couldn’t do it the next week as you would have to compensate.

[rog]

knight:
if I’ve got this right ( which i doubt) 9+3 is 12 which leaves only 12 hours in 24! so how can you work 15?. I was under the impresson the only way you could work a week of 15 hour shifts was if you took a spilt WEEKLY BREAK mid week, but then you couldn’t do it the next week as you would have to compensate.

Not ‘work’ 15 but get ‘paid’ for 15 is what was meant - if you get paid for breaks that is.

Might be a 3 hour wait at an RDC and instead of using POA, use break

[davey_driver]

Ok I’ll try and keep it simple

During your shift if you have a rest break of no less than 3 hrs continuous it qualifies as Split shift, your total shift can be no longer than 15 hrs maximum, the 15 hrs includes the 3 hrs break.

You must then take a minimum 9 hrs daily rest, you can if you wish, work 15 hrs total duty time per day every day providing the following are adhered to:

A) No More than 2 x 10 hr Drives

B) No less than 3hrs consecutive Daily Break has been recorded during your shift.

C) No shift can exceed 15 hrs which is the Maximum

D) No more than 6 days consecutive can be worked

In a nutshell, because you are taking a total rest period of 12 hrs within the 24 hrs period, you are meeting the minimum requirements for the 11 hr rest and therefore none of the split shifts are classed as 9 hr reductions.

On Days where the 3 hrs consecutive break cannot be taken, you can reduce your rest to 9 hrs, however, you can only reduce your rest 3 times to 9 hrs (Unless you have the 3 hrs Break, in which case it is no longer classed as a reduction as its split shift)

[knight]

Thanks, that i understand.

[jon_lad]

Davey Driver… Yeah that makes it clearer… i knew their was an explanation somewhere out there … thanks !

Tachograph… I dont work for that company anymore… the old boss paid for the course… due to a visit from vosa to try and make sure that the drivers knew the driving regulations post april 07… i believe there is a prosecution pending…hence i dont work there now.

Jon

[tachograph]

ROG:

knight:
if I’ve got this right ( which i doubt) 9+3 is 12 which leaves only 12 hours in 24! so how can you work 15?. I was under the impresson the only way you could work a week of 15 hour shifts was if you took a spilt WEEKLY BREAK mid week, but then you couldn’t do it the next week as you would have to compensate.

Not ‘work’ 15 but get ‘paid’ for 15 is what was meant - if you get paid for breaks that is.

Might be a 3 hour wait at an RDC and instead of using POA, use break

At the risk of being pedantic, I don’t know of any employer who pays for daily rest periods.
A break is not the same as a rest period, a break is time that can be used to recuperate and can be taken during duty time, a daily rest period is time in which a driver may freely dispose of his time and will not be at the disposal of the employer, weather or not you get paid for breaks is not important as a break doesn’t count as part of a split daily rest, legally it has to be 3 hours in which you can dispose of the time freely.

The point is that if you’re being paid then you’re likely to be on duty time which by its very nature can’t also be part of the daily rest time.

Davey Driver:
You must then take a minimum 9 hrs daily rest, you can if you wish, work 15 hrs total duty time per day every day providing the following are adhered to:

You can work 15 hours duty time 3 times between weekly rest periods by reducing your daily rest to 9 hours.
A split shift can comprise of no more than 12 hours working (duty) time.

---

Spread-over is a term often used to describe the period of time from the start of the working day to the end of the working day, therefore if you work a split shift you can have a spread-over of no more than 15 hours (allowing 9 hours rest at the end of shift), but as 3 hours of that will have been part of the split daily rest period only 12 hours will have been duty or working time.

That’s the way I see it anyway

[santa]

At the risk of being pedantic, I don’t know of any employer who pays for daily rest periods.

I suspect there are plenty - mostly those who deliver to RDC’s. I certainly did when i was on fridges. The hard part was when you got tipped too fast and had to try and string it out.

[hitch]

hold your horses
never do more than 13 duty never have a reduced break
never have a problem
sorted

if you know your on a 10 drive
3,20 break 3,20 break 3,20 finish

try this,
work for 4 have 30mn work for 4 have 30mn work some more finsh

i’ve never seen a pay structure that rewards you for reduced breaks
so dont do them

[davey_driver]

tachograph:

Davey Driver:
You must then take a minimum 9 hrs daily rest, you can if you wish, work 15 hrs total duty time per day every day providing the following are adhered to:

You can work 15 hours duty time 3 times between weekly rest periods by reducing your daily rest to 9 hours.
A split shift can comprise of no more than 12 hours working (duty) time.

And as I did say in my first line, I’ll try to keep it SIMPLE which is why I stated 15 hrs work After all from inserting the chart to removing the chart it is 15 Hours !

Of course you always get one who wants to keep things complicated by using the gobbledegook that causes the confusion in the first place.

[tachograph]

Davey Driver:
And as I did say in my first line, I’ll try to keep it SIMPLE which is why I stated 15 hrs work After all from inserting the chart to removing the chart it is 15 Hours !

Of course you always get one who wants to keep things complicated by using the gobbledegook that causes the confusion in the first place.

I take it you don’t like people pointing it out when you get it wrong then
If keeping it simple is an excuse for not keeping it accurate then perhaps “simple” isn’t such a good way to go.

There is after all a difference between 15 hours working time and 12 hours working time, there’s also is a difference between working time and daily rest, as someone who sells an item that purports to keep people legal I would have thought you’d know that, to suggest that a driver can legally work for 15 hours a day every day just by having a long break is incorrect and miss-leading.

You may not realise it but that gobbledegook is the regulations that we have to work to, it’s also the regulations that the authorities will check us on.

Keeping it simple is good but perhaps you should also try to keep it accurate,

[rog]

tachograph:
Keeping it simple is good but perhaps you should also try to keep it accurate,

Or you risk getting shot - I KNOW

[davey_driver]

So please do take the time to explain the difference in “Working 12 hours out of 15hrs” and a tachodisc being in the tacho head for 15 hrs but not classed as working 15hrs"?

Tachograph, you are simply trying to be Too Clever for your own good, the explanation I gave clearly stated that a break of 3 hrs must be taken to qualify as split shift, those 3 hrs can be recorded as daily break and do NOT have to be recorded as Daily rest as you imply

There lies the difference, Daily break and daily rest, are you implying that a driver who works a 15 hr shift on his tacho can not claim split shift if he reduces his rest to 9 hrs despite having a 3 hr daily break? Paid or unpaid?

Try reading the regs fully, at no point does it state the breaks cannot be paid, hence the 15 hrs working, if the employer pays breaks and pays the driver 15 hrs thats no concern of yours or any of the aurthorities as long as the driver was available to spend those 3 hrs as he wished.

[tachograph]

This has to be quick as I’m off to work.

The 3 hours has to be “daily rest” and therefore can’t be working time or duty time as you stated.

The Regulations define working time as the time from the beginning of work, during which the mobile worker is at the workstation (typically this means the driver’s cab - but see glossary for fuller definition of this and other terms) at the disposal of the employer and exercising his functions or activities

Weather or not you get paid for legal daily rest is irrelevant though I’ve never come across it, the fact is that it has to be part of a daily rest period and therefore can’t be working time, duty time or a break as defined by the regulations.

A bit of technical gobbledygook perhaps, but those I’m afraid are the regulations as we have to work to them.

[davey_driver]

Tachograph lets put this as simple as possible for you, maybe then you will accept what is being said.

If a Driver inserts his Chart or his Digi Card into the Tacho at for example 6:00 hrs and removes the same chart 15 hrs later at 21:00 hrs he has completed a 15 hr shift.

If during that 15 hrs he has completed a minimum of 1 rest period which consisted of 3 hrs recorded as Daily Break by his tachograph, he only needs a 9 hrs Daily Rest

He can do that for 6 consecutive days if he so wishes, because the 3 hrs + 9 hrs = 12 hrs rest in total

If you disagree with what I’m saying, take it up with Vosa, the Dept of Transport and the European Parliament.

Whether your happy or not, 15 hrs per day can be succesfully done every day for a maximum of 6 days providing the 3 hrs consecutive break has also been taken.

Yes the 2 x 10 hr maximum drives are still in place, but as far as 15 hrs is concerned that is legal for 6 consecutive days if the driver so wishes.

You can be pedantic if you wish about defining working time or shift time, at the end of the day, everything is still the same, 15 hrs = 15 hrs & 3hrs + 9hrs = 12 hrs rest

[old_skool_kid]

Try this.

Daily driving time.
Means the total accumulated driving time between the end of one daily rest period and the beginning of the following daily rest period or between a daily rest period and a weekly rest period;

A driver who begins work at 06.00 on day 1 must, by 06.00 on day 2 at the latest, have completed either (24 hr period)

• A regular daily rest period of at least 11 hours; or
• A split daily rest period of at least 12 hours; or
• If entitled, a reduced daily rest period of at least 9 hours.

Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period. If the portion of the daily rest period which falls within that 24 hour period is at least nine hours but less than 11 hours, then the daily rest period in question shall be regarded as a reduced daily rest period.

[tachograph]

Davey Driver:
Tachograph lets put this as simple as possible for you, maybe then you will accept what is being said.

What you’re saying appears to be different to what you originally said which was " you can if you wish, work 15 hrs total duty time per day every day".
Well you can but only by using reduced daily rest and not by using split daily rests as you suggested

It looks to me that it’s you who needs things to be kept simple so you can understand them.

Davey Driver:
those 3 hrs can be recorded as daily break and do NOT have to be recorded as Daily rest as you imply

If you took the trouble to read the regulations you would know that there’s nothing defined in the regulations as a “daily break”.

“Break” and “Rest” are two separate entity’s with different definitions and different rules applied to each, to suggest that the 3 hour period of a split daily rest period can be a “break” and does not have to be a “daily rest” shows how little trouble you’ve taken to understand the regulations that you imply needs to be kept simple for other people.
The difference between “Break” and "Rest " may seem a technicality but I would have thought that someone who claims to be interested in helping drivers to stay legal would appreciate that you should at least know the difference.

You seem to be implying that when the chart or card is in the tachograph it’s working time or duty time and cannot be a daily rest period or part of a daily rest period, this would mean that anyone who leaves a driver card in over night doesn’t have a daily rest which is of course total rubbish.

Like I said originally you can work 15 hours total duty time a day (less breaks of course) if you have reduced daily rest periods, the maximum working time on a day when you have a split daily rest is 12 hours less breaks.

I hope this was simple enough for you

[davey_driver]

tachograph:
What you’re saying appears to be different to what you originally said which was " you can if you wish, work 15 hrs total duty time per day every day".
Well you can but only by using reduced daily rest and not by using split daily rests as you suggested

It looks to me that it’s you who needs things to be kept simple so you can understand them.

No Mate, what I said was to keep things in plain English, but YOU decided that the members on this site were not capable of understanding this, so you decided to give your confusing version.

Whether its Daily Break or Daily Rest, Whether its Duty Time or Whether its Shift Time its still 15 bloody hours from the chart being inserted to being removed, that is obviously the part you cannot accept.

As most intelligent drivers will agree, when they have completed 15 hrs on a chart, they are content with the fact they have “Worked” a 15 hr shift, even if they sat in the cab waiting for a recovery truck to arrive, they clocked up 15 hrs end of story.

By all means answer peoples questions, but when they are asking for a simple explaination that they can understand, you have to use common sense and avoid the complicated gobbledegook, which you obviously prefer to use just to prove a point, I understand your views / opinions but, remember, somebody asked for it to be explained in a way they could understand,

tachograph:
You seem to be implying that when the chart or card is in the tachograph it’s working time or duty time and cannot be a daily rest period or part of a daily rest period, this would mean that anyone who leaves a driver card in over night doesn’t have a daily rest which is of course total rubbish.

Hang on a minute, where the Hell have I implied that you cannot leave a chart in overnight?

All I have stated is that once a chart has been removed after a 15 hr shift !!!

Obviously you are now getting desperate if your having to try and twist things to suit FFS

[rog]

tachograph:

ROG:

knight:
if I’ve got this right ( which i doubt) 9+3 is 12 which leaves only 12 hours in 24! so how can you work 15?. I was under the impresson the only way you could work a week of 15 hour shifts was if you took a spilt WEEKLY BREAK mid week, but then you couldn’t do it the next week as you would have to compensate.

Not ‘work’ 15 but get ‘paid’ for 15 is what was meant - if you get paid for breaks that is.

Might be a 3 hour wait at an RDC and instead of using POA, use break

At the risk of being pedantic, I don’t know of any employer who pays for daily rest periods.
A break is not the same as a rest period, a break is time that can be used to recuperate and can be taken during duty time, a daily rest period is time in which a driver may freely dispose of his time and will not be at the disposal of the employer, weather or not you get paid for breaks is not important as a break doesn’t count as part of a split daily rest, legally it has to be 3 hours in which you can dispose of the time freely.

The point is that if you’re being paid then you’re likely to be on duty time which by its very nature can’t also be part of the daily rest time.

Davey Driver:
You must then take a minimum 9 hrs daily rest, you can if you wish, work 15 hrs total duty time per day every day providing the following are adhered to:

You can work 15 hours duty time 3 times between weekly rest periods by reducing your daily rest to 9 hours.
A split shift can comprise of no more than 12 hours working (duty) time.

---

Spread-over is a term often used to describe the period of time from the start of the working day to the end of the working day, therefore if you work a split shift you can have a spread-over of no more than 15 hours (allowing 9 hours rest at the end of shift), but as 3 hours of that will have been part of the split daily rest period only 12 hours will have been duty or working time.

That’s the way I see it anyway

From the way I see this…

There are the policies of the employer and the the tacho laws

If the employer pays for the 3 hour ‘part of daily rest’ bit, is that illegal

If not illegal, then the whole of the 15 is paid for and it is kept within the tacho laws

or have I missed something… again

[coffeeholic]

ROG:
If the employer pays for the 3 hour ‘part of daily rest’ bit, is that illegal

Hope not, because when I used split daily rest on each of the 6 days I worked last week I got paid for the shorter portion of the rest period, around 4 hours each day. The only thing which really mattered was if I was able to dispose of my time as I wished, and I could. The employer wasn’t even able to contact me during those periods.

Oh, and just for the record if any one asked me how many hours I worked each day last week I would have answered 14 - 15 as I just count work from the time I either insert the digi card or enter start country to the time I either enter end country or remove the card, or 15 minutes either side of insertion or removal. Regardless of what the mode switch says during that period I am ‘at work’.