Spineless drivers

[billyhunt]

desypete:

BillyHunt:

Olog Hai:

desypete:
anyone who would jack in there job to go on the dole to prove a point would indeed be a moron of the highest order.

At least we agree on something. Now for about the fifth time, what are you doing with yourself since you jacked the driving?

You won’t be getting an answer there I’m afraid, he’s either not working or in something so embarrassing he feels he cannot come clean. I reckon he’s a lollipop man on job share now.

i am a balloon man billy i dance naked infront of women with only balloons to cover me, it pays the bills but what a come down from driving bendys

If it’s bad for you just think how the ladies feel. Being hung like a hamster it’s not really a good career move for me though but you take what you can get in your position.

[billyhunt]

eezeer:
Seems on here we have most drivers quite happy to bend over and take it rather than do something.

That is why as drivers we are in [zb] street and nothing will get better

do you all not deserve a bit of respect or have you also given in on that as well

good topic “Spineless”

You have no idea what drivers on here are making so why assume they are getting shafted? Has it occurred to you that plenty are happy with what they take home, where they park, the job they do, the truck they drive, some might even, and I guess this might stick in some throats, like their boss, there I said it.
For the record I work for a decent company, yes DP there are plenty out there, doing well, decent kit, good level of pay with annual pay rises, good planner & TM. Am I bothered others on here get more than me, less than me, get shafted by their boss, drive crap vehicles etc, no I’m not. Would I be willing to , possibly, go on strike to support those that cannot or will not do anything about their situation, big no.
That’s today’s reality & no Union is going to change that. Good grief you can’t even get drivers to flash you in these days, wether you need it or not is irrelevant, there’s not many even nod or look at you when you park in an MSA, let alone stick together for pay & conditions.
Good luck with your quest but I think your on a loser.

[carryfast]

raymundo:
I cant see how the price of fuel has as much of an impact on the rates as much as being undercut by the big boys who can run at a lower profit margin than the smaller outfits, when I was running my motors the fuel cost was taken into consideration when I quoted a price but I was running in a niche market

It seems obvious that an environment which allows the use of red diesel would increase potential profitability and demand for transport ‘and’ thereby allow more room for higher wages in the industry.

Especially if/when combined with the type of ring fenced industry specific wage structure described.Which stops wages being included in the competitive tendering process and a change in immigration policy which reduces the supply of labour.

[themoocher]

BillyHunt:
Just curious, is the flood of cheap labour from Europe causing a driver surplus & driving down wages, or is there a driver shortage? There cannot be both at the same time surely.

Why can it not be both.

There is a huge shortage of home born british drivers not drivers as a whole.

So the answer is haulage companies don’t need british drivers as Johnny Poland or Davey Romania will do the same job for cheaper.

I’m not to fused mate as I look at every industry and can see that it’s not just transport it’s the whole uk work force that is getting shafted.

I think I get paid a fair wage for the hours I work and happy working where I am.

[ovlov_jay]

eezeer:

scotstrucker:

OVLOV JAY:
I don’t need a union, drivers rep or any brotherhood. I use the tongue I was born with. If things are wrong, I make my point, if nothing changes for the better, I find a job with better T’s and C’s. If nobody swallowed [zb], the job would sort itself out

+1 it’s always worked for me

Glad you are both bloody lucky to be happy with everything, 1000s are not. I gather you manage to fing good safe parking everynight and not stuck in some layby, or happy to sit in waiting room for 4 odd hors, pay less for a medicl than most and get paid more than most.

again the usual, sod you I am OK applies

lets hope your employer never goes under and you have to suffer like many others,

Well I do containers, so sitting in rdc waiting rooms is once in a blue moon. We do 5 or 6 boxes over 2 or 3 days to tesco about every 3 months, never do sainsbury or asda, regularly do morrisons, m and s and maccy d’s who all let you sit in the cab. I don’t like rdc waiting rooms so I don’t work for someone who does that work.

My company insists on secure parking, loaded or empty, and if you get robbed of diesel nicked parking somewhere without paying for it, you will be sacked. I don’t do lay by’s so I don’t work for people that won’t pay for parking.

I’m alright sod the rest doesn’t apply, as all my fellow employees get treated the same, on the best pay, terms and conditions in the container game, so why would we need to be in a union?

And with £5.7mil in cash, and £7mil of assets according to companies house, I can’t see them going under anytime soon

[billyhunt]

Themoocher:

BillyHunt:
Just curious, is the flood of cheap labour from Europe causing a driver surplus & driving down wages, or is there a driver shortage? There cannot be both at the same time surely.

Why can it not be both.

There is a huge shortage of home born british drivers not drivers as a whole.

So the answer is haulage companies don’t need british drivers as Johnny Poland or Davey Romania will do the same job for cheaper.

I’m not to fused mate as I look at every industry and can see that it’s not just transport it’s the whole uk work force that is getting shafted.

I think I get paid a fair wage for the hours I work and happy working where I am.

Nobody ever says it’s a shortage of home grown drivers just driver shortage. CF & his like are always banging on about the flood cheap labour from Europe driving down wages so, either there is a shortage and they are needed or there isn’t and they aren’t, it cannot be both.
I can only speak from experience but I’ve yet to come across a European driver driving a British registered truck, or worked anywhere they have them, so you’ll have excuse my scepticism when people, especially those that don’t drive anymore, continually go on about how they are taking over the industry. While I’m working full time now in the last couple of years doing agency work I’ve been to plenty, about 16 all told, companies around the North East so it’s not as if I’ve not been around to see for myself. As opposed to believing everything I read in the tabloids from my armchair,that is.

[ovlov_jay]

BillyHunt:
I can only speak from experience but I’ve yet to come across a European driver driving a British registered truck

[themoocher]

OVLOV JAY:

eezeer:

scotstrucker:

OVLOV JAY:
I don’t need a union, drivers rep or any brotherhood. I use the tongue I was born with. If things are wrong, I make my point, if nothing changes for the better, I find a job with better T’s and C’s. If nobody swallowed [zb], the job would sort itself out

+1 it’s always worked for me

Glad you are both bloody lucky to be happy with everything, 1000s are not. I gather you manage to fing good safe parking everynight and not stuck in some layby, or happy to sit in waiting room for 4 odd hors, pay less for a medicl than most and get paid more than most.

again the usual, sod you I am OK applies

lets hope your employer never goes under and you have to suffer like many others,

Well I do containers, so sitting in rdc waiting rooms is once in a blue moon. We do 5 or 6 boxes over 2 or 3 days to tesco about every 3 months, never do sainsbury or asda, regularly do morrisons, m and s and maccy d’s who all let you sit in the cab. I don’t like rdc waiting rooms so I don’t work for someone who does that work.

My company insists on secure parking, loaded or empty, and if you get robbed of diesel nicked parking somewhere without paying for it, you will be sacked. I don’t do lay by’s so I don’t work for people that won’t pay for parking.

I’m alright sod the rest doesn’t apply, as all my fellow employees get treated the same, on the best pay, terms and conditions in the container game, so why would we need to be in a union?

And with £5.7mil in cash, and £7mil of assets according to companies house, I can’t see them going under anytime soon

You think the 12 million means anything?
If the run at a loss over a time the plug will be pulled the same as any other company.

[raymundo]

WTF !! I wish I had never asked or said owt

[ovlov_jay]

They’ve been trading for 40 years and my boss says he operates on a 40p in the pound profit margin, he won’t accept rates any worse than that. So I reckon I’m safe

[themoocher]

BillyHunt:

Themoocher:

BillyHunt:
Just curious, is the flood of cheap labour from Europe causing a driver surplus & driving down wages, or is there a driver shortage? There cannot be both at the same time surely.

Why can it not be both.

There is a huge shortage of home born british drivers not drivers as a whole.

So the answer is haulage companies don’t need british drivers as Johnny Poland or Davey Romania will do the same job for cheaper.

I’m not to fused mate as I look at every industry and can see that it’s not just transport it’s the whole uk work force that is getting shafted.

I think I get paid a fair wage for the hours I work and happy working where I am.

Nobody ever says it’s a shortage of home grown drivers just driver shortage. CF & his like are always banging on about the flood cheap labour from Europe driving down wages so, either there is a shortage and they are needed or there isn’t and they aren’t, it cannot be both.
I can only speak from experience but I’ve yet to come across a European driver driving a British registered truck, or worked anywhere they have them, so you’ll have excuse my scepticism when people, especially those that don’t drive anymore, continually go on about how they are taking over the industry. While I’m working full time now in the last couple of years doing agency work I’ve been to plenty, about 16 all told, companies around the North East so it’s not as if I’ve not been around to see for myself. As opposed to believing everything I read in the tabloids from my armchair,that is.

Well I don’t sit in my armchair.
I don’t know what part of the country your in but every depot or yard I go to is full of foreigners.
It will make it worse on foreign plates as they can under cut even more and pay even less than minimum wage.
It’s not haulage it’s the full country every working trade is the same.
Unless your a MP getting a 10% pay rise I’d say your ■■■■■■■

Only way things will change is if they stop the free movement of people.
I think if that happens the country would be ■■■■■■■ When you see the amount of foreign vehicles and drivers. there wouldn’t be enough british drivers and british trucks running in the country to keep up with demand.
That’s why I think the uk will never leave the eu

[djw]

Themoocher:
Society has changed so much over the past 20 or 30 years. Unions and strikes are not effective. The times have changed and the boats have sailed along time ago.

It is inescapable that we live in a different world to the heyday of the unions.

Whilst I believe unions still have a place in society, I do not believe there is any way that a union could secure higher wages and greater job security for LGV drivers in today’s marketplace.

Logistics is increasingly dominated by large national and multinational players, using economy of scale to bid for huge contracts at a scale smaller companies cannot muster the resources to service and/or at prices smaller companies cannot match. The large players like Stobart Group have access to huge amounts of lease financing, allowing them to run large fleets with minimal capital tie-up. There is no way a union is going to make fundamental economic changes to these large players, as it would be all but impossible for one union to sign up a majority of drivers as members.

At the other end of the scale, the entry barrier to the licence to run a small fleet is relatively low - a suitable piece of land with the necessary planning permission, sufficient finance to persuade the Traffic Commissioner that you can meet your repair and maintenance requirements, and, if you are operating for hire or reward, the (potentially part time) services of someone who has passed an exam that many people can pass with a few months of study. Obviously, as well as your yard and operator’s licence you need to be able to cover the capital and operating expenditure to buy/lease, maintain and fuel your vehicles and provide drivers. Nobody at this end of the market could afford to give in to unionised drivers’ demands for higher wages, as the higher wage costs will feed through to higher prices in a marketplace where non-unionised employers with a lower cost base will be happy to take the business at a lower price.

I doubt there would be a huge driver shortage if the UK left the EU. Anyone already living or working in the UK under EU rights would have to be given permanent (or at least very long term) acquired rights to reside and/or work, as anything else would be too disruptive to the lives of UK families and the UK economy. EU exit would cut off the supply of new drivers from Europe, but the timescale for EU exit to become effective will allow the driver training providers and DVSA to increase the scale of their operations if necessary.

I think LGV drivers are kidding themselves if they think that under 3 weeks of training costing around £2-3k to get from a full car licence to a B/BE/C/CE licence with commercial driving rights forms a significant entry barrier to the profession. If there are fewer drivers in the marketplace, it might be that there is something of a return to ‘free’ or subsidised training rather than the current norm of drivers acquiring their own licence. However, as in the modern PCV industry, free or subsidised training will result in an exit charge that abates over time to ensure that the employer gets full return on the up-front training costs or a proportionate refund from the departing driver.

I know there are many who believe the EU over-regulate the road freight industry and would gladly see the back of some or all of the EU tachograph, speed limiter, working time and driver licensing rules. However, I believe a United Kingdom outside the EU would be inclined to align itself voluntarily with EU regulations in most contexts.

In particular, it is difficult to argue for a move away from tachographs, speed limiters and some sort of hours rules because of the road safety implications. Minor concessions like lifting the maximum speed limiter setting for >7.5t from 90 km/h to 60 mph to allow sustained running at the motorway maximum speed will be of limited practical effect, not least as the extra fuel cost would make the small extra daily mileage an unaffordable luxury for most fleets. Many fleets already voluntarily set their limiters below 90 km/h for better fuel efficiency.

I’m going to refrain from entering into the “what have the EU done for us” debate, other than to observe that it might start to get a little like Monty Python’s “what have the Romans done for us” (Life of Brian, wasn’t it?). Not everything about the EU is rosy, but I don’t side with those who see everything to do with the EU as unspeakably evil, either.

[janos]

By Mike Wackett
06.10.2015 · Posted in Land, Loadstar posts, Supply chain FavoriteAdd to favorites
workhouse
A survey of leading UK companies on behalf of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport (CILT) has highlighted the crisis faced in the supply chain from a worsening heavy goods vehicle (HGV) driver shortage.

Over 100 companies were surveyed to support the CILT’s Driver Shortage Crisis publication, including retailer Marks & Spencer, Premier Foods and haulage group Norbert Dentressangle.

The results will serve as an alarming wake-up call for the UK’s transport industry and confirmed earlier fears expressed of a “ticking time bomb” of driver shortages and also that the shortage has now reached crisis point in many regions of the UK.

Indeed, 74% of respondents stated that their organisations were experiencing a driver shortage and 61% said they were obliged to rely on agency drivers to cover their regular workload commitments.

The problems stem firstly from the high cost of entry in terms of licence acquisition and thereafter from a new EU directive requiring drivers to obtain a Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC).

Maintaining a CPC involves 35 hours of training every five years and has been described many times to The Loadstar by HGV drivers as the “final straw” in their decision, already under consideration due to the long and unsociable hours and poor wages, to walk away from the industry. These factors have also seen younger workers shun the job as a career.

As a consequence, the average age of UK HGV drivers has climbed to 47, with a severe shortage of younger people coming through to replace them when they either hand in their keys in favour of a less stressful job, or retire.

Of those companies surveyed, 80% accepted that it was their responsibility to find solutions to the issues, but 89% complained that the UK government was not doing enough to highlight and deal with the current driver shortage crisis.

As a proactive response to the survey, CILT said it would host a series of nationwide round-table discussions, at which senior industry figures could share best practice and brainstorm ideas to combat the issues.

Container haulage shortages are yet another challenge for the UK’s supply chain already burdened by the erratic scheduling of ocean carriers and pinch points at container terminals caused by the bunching of bigger ships with considerably higher box exchanges.

Furthermore, the sub-economic freight rates that many liner operators are now are obliged to work with – the consequence of a bloody rate war raging in Asia – leaves little scope for the carriers to concede any haulage rate increases that would assist companies to raise the remuneration of drivers.

Indeed, one Felixstowe-based carrier bizarrely told its customers in an advisory that the reason for a lack of prompt haulage was that they (the shippers) had “squeezed us to reduce costs and we have squeezed our suppliers, of which transport companies are one”.

Ashortage of truck drivers is a problem that the UK has in common with several European nations and has also become a serious issue in the US, for similar reasons of low pay and industry standing with fewer young people are interested in getting into the profession.

Indeed, according to the American Trucking Association (ATA) there is currently a shortage of 30,000 truck drivers across the nation. From the ATA’s own findings, 90% of hauliers cannot find enough drivers for their needs.

The ‘mythical’ driver shortage.? 74% of surveyed companies say they are short of drivers. The so-called ‘spineless’ drivers have sent their message loud and clear.

[sweepster]

There is/will be a driver shortage. The company I work for employ a lot of drivers and 50% of them are over 50. I must admit there isn’t any east European employed that I know of. The company employ’s from within first, which is normally local lad’s and lasses.

[windrush]

A serious question now as, living here in rural Derbyshire, a ‘Foreigner’ to us is somebody from Yorkshire. The Continental trucks that I see about on the M1 etc, are some of them transporting internal British freight (ie Brum to Leeds etc) while they are here or are they all just bringing goods in and taking beer etc back across the water? No way of knowing I guess but I wondered if some are actually undercutting British hauliers doing ‘local work’ while they are over here and perhaps waiting for a load back home? I did chat to a Dutch O/D a couple of years ago one Sunday at Toddington services and he was here for a few days before his return load was ready so a lot of time to be hanging around with no earnings.

On the original question, luckily I never had a real issue with any of my employers (not with driving jobs anyway) but if I had done then I would have made my feelings known. However I doubt that I would have jacked the job in as most of the alternative companies doing similar work were not any better really and I could even have been worse off.

Pete.

[robroy]

All these posts about Polish drivers working for minimum and general crap wages for UK based companies , who exactly are these co.s?.. names? …who are these drivers?
The firm I work for has a few Polish drivers working for them at the main depot,…for the same rate as me and the other Brit drivers, and we all got a pay raise this year.
The firm my mate works for also has Poles on the same rate, and no doubt countless other firms will have the same policy…but hey, let’s not let facts interfere with good old fashioned driver bull crap, hearsay, and complete ■■■■■■■■.

[raymundo]

OVLOV JAY:
They’ve been trading for 40 years and my boss says he operates on a 40p in the pound profit margin, he won’t accept rates any worse than that. So I reckon I’m safe

So you don’t work for the likes of stobbies ect, glad to know that …

[desypete]

Dipper_Dave:
So desypete as the only driver in history to fail the dCPC what escape route have you chosen.

Course by fail I mean to reject it as the last straw etc when you have done nothing but whinge about its uselessness when in reality you are the a-typical cut ones nose off to spite their face specimen of humanity I have ever come across.
Plus the added venom of giving it the bigun on a job you are no longer qualified for.

All water off a ducks back of course…

but of course its all water off a ducks back

[scotstrucker]

eezeer:

scotstrucker:

OVLOV JAY:
I don’t need a union, drivers rep or any brotherhood. I use the tongue I was born with. If things are wrong, I make my point, if nothing changes for the better, I find a job with better T’s and C’s. If nobody swallowed [zb], the job would sort itself out

+1 it’s always worked for me

Glad you are both bloody lucky to be happy with everything, 1000s are not. I gather you manage to fing good safe parking everynight and not stuck in some layby, or happy to sit in waiting room for 4 odd hors, pay less for a medicl than most and get paid more than most.

again the usual, sod you I am OK applies

lets hope your employer never goes under and you have to suffer like many others,

where does it say i’m happy? it doesn’t does it! if i’m not happy then believe me i don’t need a union or a rep for my boss too know i can manage that myself and he is about too find out in the next couple of months that i’ll be moving on if things don’t change, every time i have spoke up for others they don’t back you up.

i park where i think it’s safe and in 22 years on the road i have only had fuel taken once and that was because i was broken down.

i’m paid by the hour so sitting for four hours in a waiting room doesn’t bother me. lets face it companies are only making us sit in waiting rooms because some lazy arsed steering wheel attendants have pulled off the bay’s without checking there tipped.

i have too renew my licence every 3 years and at a £100 a time and yes it’s not cheap but my doctor donates £50 of each her medical fee to 3 different cancer charities and being a bowel cancer survivor myself i’m happy that part of the fee is helping others, there are others who do it cheaper but i believe in using my own doctor as she knows medical history.

luckily i’v never been in employment where the firm went bust but a few friends have been and because they were good drivers they were soon back in employment.

as usual most drivers wont stand up for themselves let alone stand up as group.

[djw]

Janos:
The ‘mythical’ driver shortage.? 74% of surveyed companies say they are short of drivers. The so-called ‘spineless’ drivers have sent their message loud and clear.

If you accept the analysis in the article, it blames the shortage on licence acquisition costs and on the implementation of driver CPC.

Let’s take those in reverse order.

The implementation of dCPC was the final straw for many thinking of leaving the industry, who decided to stop driving on or before the last day of acquired rights rather than undergo periodic training. A one-off correction was expected and its effects will fade in time. All those driving C1, C, C1E or CE professionally, other than the small number driving exempt vehicles and an unknown number ‘running bent’, have had to acquire a dCPC via the module 2&4 tests or by 35 hours of periodic training on top of acquired rights. I’m sure DVSA and the Traffic Commissioners will take a suitably dim view of operators who fail to ensure that their drivers have a dCPC. Those operators who are truly bent are unlikely to be in compliance with all legal requirements other than dCPC.

It’s probably a fairly safe bet that most of the drivers who have been willing to acquire a dCPC will be willing, with the support of their employer if they are not agency staff, to renew their dCPC if they wish to continue driving. The equivalent of one day a year of periodic training - which might be other necessary renewal training (ADR, HIAB, Moffatt) registered for dCPC purposes - is much less than mandatory ongoing training than is required in other fields.

I do not doubt there is a driver shortage in the terms defined in the article, but we should not fool ourselves that there are lorries being taken off the road because the operator cannot find a qualified driver at all. The shortage is that, in some parts of the country, there are insufficient ready-trained drivers willing to work for the wages and terms the employers are currently willing to offer.

The current situation with the large PCV operators in many parts of the country suggests that when it is more cost-effective to subsidise training than continue making such heavy use of agency drivers or turn work away, an employer will offer a training subsidy or apprenticeship. We’re probably talking about the need to save around £100/month on driver costs to write off the cost of putting a car licence driver through C, CE and initial dCPC over two years once you take trainer discounts and the way VAT works into account. That’s £100/month the employer would rather not pay, but they will pay if they are reasonably confident they have a medium term regular need for that driver once qualified. It may well be cheaper for the industry to keep wages down and offer subsidised training to new entrants than to raise wages across the board.

Of course, any employer needing drivers on an irregular or short term basis is likely to find it cheaper to employ agency staff when required rather than offer subsidised training. If the agencies reach the point where they cannot meet demand, they, too, will likely offer subsidised training in return for some sort of lock in or driver payback scheme.

Similarly, if consignors get fed up at the length of time their container is sitting at the port because of the limited number of firms prepared to run for the money on offer, they’ll raise the money on offer to shift the box.

I remain to be convinced that there is such a pressing shortage of drivers that large pay rises and better conditions are round the corner because there is nobody left who is willing to return to LGV driving, drive more hours than they currently do or accept ‘free’ training in return for a two year lock-in.