So If We Leave

Rjan:
But aren’t you just identifying an incarnation of the “effort the employer extracts”, and proving my point that every supposed advantage the immigrant has arises from undercutting the wage/work bargain that settled workers find acceptable?

I suppose so. Unfortunately, lazy Brits seem to insist on spending some time at home at the weekend. I suppose it’s a sort of a tradition.

Rjan:
I’ll bet you the employer in your case wouldn’t be laughing if he was having to pay £25 an hour for those trucks to be polished on a Sunday morning.

No maybe not, but why are you concerned about how much your employer would have to pay to get his truck polished on a Sunday morning? Are you saying that the feckless Brits might be more employable if they were prepared to turn up on Sunday morning with some rags and a bottle of Turtle Wax?

Rjan:

Carryfast:
It would be interesting to find out exactly ‘what’ is your motivation for wanting so many immigrants added to our population to feed, to house and to keep healthy.

You make it sound like our society makes a loss on every human life it hosts, that every worker (presumably regardless of whether they are settled or migrant) imposes a grievous loss on the public ■■■■■. And having asserted that, you imply I want to make it up for those losses with additional volume.

But the fact is that hosting human life is not a loss-making activity - it is actually a grandly profitable activity.

Despite the economics making sense, I don’t want so much immigration that our civilisation is simply overwashed and our social fabric left tattered, but I want enough movement that our culture is enriched by ideas and developments from around the world, that the frontiers of the socially liberal world are expanded, and some means by which dangerous geographic inequalities are dissipated and neutralised.

I also don’t discount the advantage of migration that some people are gently dislodged from the vicious narrow-minded rut that can arise from a limited range of cultural exposure. A good ten years of free movement in the EU we can thank for the fact that very few youths hold any of the absurd prejudices about, or callous lack of concern toward, Eastern European workers that some of the older generation do, and for some time to come this will be a partial prophylactic against the attraction of the far-right whilst easing further political integration and democratic cooperation across Europe (assuming of course that the EU, as well as national governments, start to become more democratically responsive).

Let alone any so called advantage in lumbering us with yet more of the world’s population.Including the issue of demographics and human nature issue of eventual calls for self determination.

Ah, back to your incoherent nonsense about “self-determination”. And no doubt you’d have some Malthusian account of “human nature” to boot, if I cared to enquire into it any further.

Mass immigration and forced ethnic integration and local over population and over loading of Social provision and increasing the number of mouths to feed and house is ‘profitable’ for who exactly ?.

Let me guess you’d want white flight to be made a race crime under your definitions ?.

Don’t you think we already have enough of an immigrant population to do all the so called bs ‘enriching’ you’ve described.

How and at what point do you define the difference between ‘enrichment’ as opposed to ‘over washed’.

As for self determination and each to their own yes human nature.Deal with it.

nativepakistan.com/wp-content/up … ritain.jpg

Carryfast:
Firstly we know that the immigrants are coming here because incomes/living standards are better,or perceived as being better,than in their own countries.In which case increasing wages without closing the door will just create an even bigger attraction and corresponding increase in the levels of immigration.

But you fail to account for how finding employment is instrumental in achieving that better standard of living. The homeless and jobless in Britain are not better off than the employed in Eastern Europe. Migrants will only come here en masse if the job offers are there for them - and those offers won’t be there if employers aren’t able to undercut, because without undercutting, employers will already have an adequate workforce to meet their needs.

We are more or less reaching that point anyway at the moment (albeit for different reasons), where wages and conditions have deteriorated so far in the industry that there is a “shortage” of workers willing to undercut any further, and so employers are having to make do again with the pool of workers they have and actually retain those workers, rather than abusing existing workers all the way to the exit door knowing that another migrant worker is on his way in to replace the loss and asking 10% less in wages too.

On that note they aren’t under cutting the minimum wage because they can’t.

But drivers aren’t generally earning NMW. Employers are undercutting the going rate which is higher than NMW, and they are also undercutting in the ratio of effort to pay - in other words, they can’t pay NMW workers any less per hour, but they can whip them twice as hard for each hour’s pay, and throw them onto insecure contracts, and so on.

What they are doing is adding to the labour supply thereby holding the minimum wage/wages in general to an artificially low level.While your idea would obviously result in us being swamped by more immigrants.In which case the answer is close the door thereby creating an economic environment in which wages will rise by by both market forces and making a higher minimum wage sustainable.

Which leaves the question what is your actual agenda.In calling for open door immigration together with increasing the economic attraction for immigrants even more.Which can obviously only result in more immigrants trying to come here. :confused: :open_mouth:

But the point is not to make British employers less attractive to migrants. It is to make migrants less attractive to British employers. A new migrant with poor English, no local familiarity, foreign training and unverifiable driving experience, is only attractive to an employer at less than the cost of a settled worker for the same work. If the employer has to pay the new migrant the same as the settled worker for the same effort, then why on Earth would he prefer the migrant with all those disadvantages?

Or are you seriously suggesting that migrants have generally better skills than settled workers? By skills I mean something that makes the migrant more productive for the same effort or able to do more things (like fix the engine as well as driving the wagon) - I don’t mean the migrant’s willingness to thrash himself and render extraordinary effort, or comply with every demand like a lickspittle, for what seems to him like a king’s ransom (but is only an ordinary wage for a settled worker).

While ‘if’ you’re actually saying use a massively higher minimum wage to reduce the motivation for employers to import immigrant labour.Then what’s the problem of doing that together with closing the door.

Somehow I’m guessing your intention is the former of those. :unamused: :open_mouth:

Because “closing the door” doesn’t address any of my concerns, except by indirectly addressing that which I would address directly with employment regulations. And my concern is only with undercutting wages and conditions - I’m not concerned about ‘sending them back’ or ‘keeping them out’ beyond that, because I like migrants all the same as I like settled workers, and I think a reasonable dose of them is a good thing for our society.

I don’t think they will change the rules on driving or the wtd if we leave the EU.

I don’t beleive they care that much about it, I also believe it will cause more problems than it will solve. Also if drivers coming or going to EU will have to operate to EU rules any way.

Also under current rules if an employer can’t get staff for a position after advertising for so long they can apply to go outside of EU for employees. That’s a uk rule so if we leave the EU employers could use this to bring in cheaper labour. This is not a scare story it already occurs in the care home industry.

So if you think Brexit will stop immigration you are mistaken.

Harry Monk:

Rjan:
But aren’t you just identifying an incarnation of the “effort the employer extracts”, and proving my point that every supposed advantage the immigrant has arises from undercutting the wage/work bargain that settled workers find acceptable?

I suppose so. Unfortunately, lazy Brits seem to insist on spending some time at home at the weekend. I suppose it’s a sort of a tradition.

Amongst other things it’s called “leisure” and “social reproduction”, if not just plain “recuperation”. It’s not something any society can do without - even the temporary migrant has to leave people behind who keep the home fires burning. In terms of recuperation, eventually the spritely 25 year old who can manage to work 7 days a week, becomes a 40 year old with a wife, kids, and a slower metabolism and has to have time away from work.

Rjan:
I’ll bet you the employer in your case wouldn’t be laughing if he was having to pay £25 an hour for those trucks to be polished on a Sunday morning.

No maybe not, but why are you concerned about how much your employer would have to pay to get his truck polished on a Sunday morning? Are you saying that the feckless Brits might be more employable if they were prepared to turn up on Sunday morning with some rags and a bottle of Turtle Wax?

No, I’m saying migrants would be ■■■■ less attractive employees if the employer was actually having to pay the going rate for them to turn up on Sunday morning. He’d be crying out “christ almighty, go home to your families, I’m not paying £25 an hour for you to sit around and polish the bloody work tools”.

Carryfast:
Mass immigration and forced ethnic integration and local over population and over loading of Social provision and increasing the number of mouths to feed and house is ‘profitable’ for who exactly ?.

Profitable for those feeding-mouths and house-dwellers (as you characterise them), and profitable for our whole civilization.

I really think you’ve finally shown your true colours in this discussion Carryfast - shown the dirty contempt for human life that the right wing always have, as if the citizenry are mere economic burdens and mouths to feed (like farm animals but which yield no edible meat), rather than fundamental agents of human creativity and economic power.

Let me guess you’d want white flight to be made a race crime under your definitions ?.

Don’t you think we already have enough of an immigrant population to do all the so called bs ‘enriching’ you’ve described.

How and at what point do you define the difference between ‘enrichment’ as opposed to ‘over washed’.

As for self determination and each to their own yes human nature.Deal with it.

nativepakistan.com/wp-content/up … ritain.jpg

I’d say we were overwashed if immigrants were somehow changing the basic patterns of our lives and destroying the legacies of our past development and causing the collapse in our institutions and values. As I’ve already said, I find it absurd that any European migration could do this, because all of the EU is well developed.

I acknowledge that, for example, if you transplanted the entire population of a place like Afghanistan into Britain, our society would collapse under the weight of so many people who have had no induction into the modern world.

On the other hand, many of the attacks on our way of life are coming not from immigration, but from the markets whose movements and verdicts increasingly trammel our way of life underfoot and which centrist democratic politicians refuse to subordinate to legitimate social goals. It wasn’t immigrants, for example, which caused governments to cease building council housing, and it isn’t immigrants which are forcing the poor out of central London boroughs. It wasn’t immigrants who caused a swathe of school closures in my local area a decade ago, only to hear of creaking classroom sizes today - schoolchildren and school buildings that were magically quite affordable in the 1970s. It wasn’t immigrants who caused the local A&E to close, to be consolidated with another hospital miles away. It’s not immigrants who are forcing workers onto zero hours contracts - it’s shyster businessmen like Mike Ashley who make those decisions, and in fact immigrants are the victims of such exploitative contracts as much as settled workers are.

Free markets, privatisation, the rollback of social insurance and democratic control of the economy, these are the real cancers that are attacking ways of life across Britain, Europe, and all of the Western world.

Harry Monk:

OVLOV JAY:
13% of our gdp relies on eu trade. That’s not enough to make a noticeable difference to anyone’s weekly shop. The scaremongering of financial apocalypse is comical, mostly fuelled by those with a vested financial interest in remain :unamused:

If Godzilla invades the UK - He’ll get benefits, and won’t be obliged to give up his religion of eating buildings. That’s a lot of demolition engineers out of work! :open_mouth:

alicks77:
I don’t think they will change the rules on driving or the wtd if we leave the EU.

I don’t beleive they care that much about it, I also believe it will cause more problems than it will solve. Also if drivers coming or going to EU will have to operate to EU rules any way.

Also under current rules if an employer can’t get staff for a position after advertising for so long they can apply to go outside of EU for employees. That’s a uk rule so if we leave the EU employers could use this to bring in cheaper labour. This is not a scare story it already occurs in the care home industry.

So if you think Brexit will stop immigration you are mistaken.

Brexit won’t change anything until the political will begins to realize that it CAN now be changed in a “taken power back today” environment.

I would imagine only unpopular EU rules will be repealed, and those other ones that are kinda neutral or good - will be left in place.

Report out today. 77Bn was taken out of the Sterling system in the year up to April, the largest flight of cash since 2009. I wouldn’t want to hazard a guess how much has been taken out since.

Still think this referendum is just about immigrants? Everyone with cash in the UK is leaving a sinking ship, expect mayhem if we do vote to leave.

May I remind you again that half of the FTSE is owned by foreigners? Still think this doesn’t matter?

It won’t take a lot to bring the UK economy to its knees. In light of today’s report I may have to adjust my thinking. 40% loss in the value of the pound may not be enough. We are already at the 2009 low this week. The BOE is pumping 100Bn of cash into the UK system per week, that won’t be enough.

A massive run on the banks has started. We are not talking people queuing at just Northern Rock for a few quid of their savings, we are talking a system wide flight to safety.

The 1% will be fine, it is the other 99% that will pay dearly. Of course Brexiters will just call todays news scaremongering, they don’t seem to like any facts.

Ah well, cheer up a Brexit will solve the immigrant issue, NOT. If we want to sell one widget to Europe after a Brexit we will still have to accept freedom of movement.

You Brexiters keep harping on about saving 8 Bn a year we send to the EU and we lose 77Bn in two months, and a lot more since and on top of that the BOE is pumping 100Bn a week into the system.

This is only just a taster of things to come. But I understand, these are facts and the ones voting out don’t like them.

Yup, the sums really do add up…

wheelnutt:
Report out today. 77Bn was taken out of the Sterling system in the two months up to April, the largest flight of cash since 2009. I wouldn’t want to hazard a guess how much has been taken out since.

Still think this referendum is just about immigrants? Everyone with cash in the UK is leaving a sinking ship, expect mayhem if we do vote to leave.

May I remind you again that half of the FTSE is owned by foreigners? Still think this doesn’t matter?

It won’t take a lot to bring the UK economy to its knees. In light of today’s report I may have to adjust my thinking. 40% loss in the value of the pound may not be enough. We are already at the 2009 low this week. The BOE is pumping 100Bn of cash into the UK system per week, that won’t be enough.

A massive run on the banks has started. We are not talking people queuing at just Northern Rock for a few quid of their savings, we are talking a system wide flight to safety.

The 1% will be fine, it is the other 99% that will pay dearly. Of course Brexiters will just call todays news scaremongering, they don’t seem to like any facts.

Ah well, cheer up a Brexit will solve the immigrant issue, NOT. If we want to sell one widget to Europe after a Brexit we will still have to accept freedom of movement.

If that’s true - the pound has been holding up so well that it looks as if there’s an equal influx of money to balance the outgoing cash. Let the weak hands throw their money away, and let the bolder remain.

ALL speculations by either sides - need to be taken with a pinch of salt. When something is a “fact” rather than a “Speculation” - you can no longer bet on it.

There’s not really a run on sterling taking place - but there is an alternative chance OF it occuring should we remain in the EU, and then try and implement this “tax haven” law ammendment… Now if 40% of all the money in Britain truly DOES belong to the “criminal underworld” - then it is THAT money which will flee if we start tightening up too quickly.
A better solution would be to give the criminal elements a chance to become “respectable” - by legalizing and licencing Cannabis, Prostitution, and rendering zero hours workers “non taxable”. We would then see those elements currently IN this country but paying no taxes on their illegal deeds - fully legalized and taxed AND employing large swathes of the population, especially those who’ve otherwise struggled to get work. :bulb:

Imagine how many single mums on benefits you could take off benefits and how cheap a decent punt would become - if you allowed those moms to participate in the economy if they wished… I’m sure if an agency were paid £25 per hour and the mom got £20 of it - would stop anyone doing it “just for the money” as it wouldn’t be enough. But it WOULD be affordable and vetted for dodgy punters, and for the ladies with the higher ■■■ drives - a serious opportunity to seriously clean up whilst remaining within the law. As it stands, the exchequer gets nothing at all from the underworld’s “business activities”.

Winseer:
If that’s true - the pound has been holding up so well that it looks as if there’s an equal influx of money to balance the outgoing cash.

Yeah there is; OUR cash to the tune of 100Bn a week. The Bank of England doesn’t generate cash out of thin air, even that 100Bn a week still brought the pound down to a 7 year low.

The cost of leaving the ERM was 4 Billion, we are spending that and more each day now. We are at the point that the BOE has organised liquidity swaps with the Federal Reserve and the European Central Bank, they are running short and have to borrow from abroad.

Yup pinch of salt…

Ah I forgot, of course, I am scaremongering.

Investors pulled £65bn cash out of the UK in March and April as Brexit fears grow

Some £65bn of cash was taken out of the country or converted into other currencies in the two months to April, according to Bank of England figures.

Experts said that the pullback confirmed that money managers were taking the June 23 referendum seriously, and were prepared to take funds out of the UK entirely.

telegraph.co.uk/business/201 … nce-finan/

P.S. That looks and sounds scary to me.
Wheelnutt thanks for the posts, its nice to have different opinion on the board :wink:

Dolph:
Investors pulled £65bn cash out of the UK in March and April as Brexit fears grow

Some £65bn of cash was taken out of the country or converted into other currencies in the two months to April, according to Bank of England figures.

Experts said that the pullback confirmed that money managers were taking the June 23 referendum seriously, and were prepared to take funds out of the UK entirely.

telegraph.co.uk/business/201 … nce-finan/

P.S. That looks and sounds scary to me.
Wheelnutt thanks for the posts, its nice to have different opinion on the board :wink:

The Brexiters just keep going on about how everything will be OK and how great the UK will be after June 23rd. They can’t see what is happening around them.

Let’s briefly touch on our exports, the biggest three are cars, oil and pharma. We only export to Holland, Germany, France and a bit to Spain, we hardly export to the eastern part of the EU.

Any deal with the EU will have to be approved unanimously, by each and every state. Do you Brexiters really think that every country would give the UK a fair deal? You guys keep harping on about how they can’t do without us.

There only has to be one country, and there are plenty, that see no benefit in giving the UK any kind of deal and there won’t be a deal.

I can see the Italians refusing a deal, that will mean they can sell more of their cars, so will the Czech republic. Poland would like no deal as they will sell more of their Pharma, Denmark and Romania could do without a deal, that would mean they can sell more of their oil. Holland could do without, they would sell more of their gas. What do we buy and sell from Austria, bugger all. They would love to give their Pharma industry a boost by cutting us out of the equation.

Even the Germans, our biggest trading partner will get internal pressures not to give us a favourable deal, their Pharma and car industry would get a boost if they eliminate UK competition and on top of that it would keep the EU together, win win.

I can definitely see Spain, Portugal and Greece not giving us a deal, they don’t want their own population thinking about leaving and want to give us the hardest time they possibly can.

Us remainers are just scaremongering, any and all facts we bring to the table are just lies. This referendum is going the same way as the Scottish one, common sense goes out the window and radical blinkered views are the flavour of the day for anyone wanting to leave.

wheelnutt:
Us remainers are just scaremongering, any and all facts we bring to the table are just lies. This referendum is going the same way as the Scottish one, common sense goes out the window and radical blinkered views are the flavour of the day for anyone wanting to leave.

And the “funniest” thing is that more and more immigrants come from non EU countries each year, but Brits will shoot their foot by leaving EU on pretext on immigration from EU. No mention about the non EU migrants by the leave campaign, only scary stories how 29 million Bulgarians and Romanians will come :grimacing:

Dolph:

wheelnutt:
Us remainers are just scaremongering, any and all facts we bring to the table are just lies. This referendum is going the same way as the Scottish one, common sense goes out the window and radical blinkered views are the flavour of the day for anyone wanting to leave.

And the “funniest” thing is that more and more immigrants come from non EU countries each year, but Brits will shoot their foot by leaving EU on pretext on immigration from EU. No mention about the non EU migrants by the leave campaign, only scary stories how 29 million Bulgarians and Romanians will come :grimacing:

And all the Turks, even though they aren’t even in the EU yet. Don’t you know we are going to have 88Mn of them moving here on June 24th…

There are no “facts” from either side as it hasn’t happened yet. Just forecasts. If foreign investors want to pull money out now, it’s their money, they do as they please. Do you seriously think there will be a white flag aloft the lse? They will have a plan in the drawer, as that’s what sensible people in power have to do, plan for forewarned events. The cynic in me says it’s not been made public because it would rubbish the scare stories.

Obviously a brexit would be bad news for the industry leaders personal wealth, but that carries no weight with the public, thus the scaring tactics employed that we will be out of pocket. As already stated the city does not like leaps in the dark, hence people pulling money out. But we simply wouldn’t be having the referendum if it was going to be end of days. There will probably be favourable tax breaks to encourage businesses and investors to stay faithful to the capital.

The eu is exactly what it says on the tin, a union, and all our government are, are shop stewards. That’s why there is so much uncertainty, because every last but and bolt of our existence is controlled from Brussels, and nobody knows what self governance will bring to the table.

OVLOV JAY:
There are no “facts” from either side as it hasn’t happened yet. Just forecasts. If foreign investors want to pull money out now, it’s their money, they do as they please…

Take your head out of the sand, it IS happening, that is what todays report is all about, it is a report after the fact, not a forecast.

A flight of capital IS happening, right now and it has been going on since the referendum was announced. The BOE is pumping in unprecedented amounts of cash each and every day, that is not a forecast, that is a daily fact.

Undisputed facts agreed by both the Brexit and Remain campaign. Money is leaving these shores at unprecedented rates and still you can’t see it?

I’m talking about the so called facts of what will happen on June 24th. If anyone can give me a cast iron fact, can they give me the euromillions numbers for that night too. Like I said, we can see foreign money disappearing now, but that’s not to say it won’t reappear in a months time

OVLOV JAY:
I’m talking about the so called facts of what will happen on June 24th. If anyone can give me a cast iron fact, can they give me the euromillions numbers for that night too. Like I said, we can see foreign money disappearing now, but that’s not to say it won’t reappear in a months time

So you are Ok with the BOE pumping half a trillion pounds into the system to make up for the cash that is taken out right now.

And still you think it is only a forecast? Nothing serious is going to happen after the 24th if you guys vote us out?

It started happening the day the referendum was announced and is only accelerating.

Half a trillion, small change to pay to keep a few thousand immigrants out and save a few billion on EU fees.

If all the foreign investors pull their cash out we will be bankrupt on the 24th. Of course that is only scaremongering…