So how is that?

[orys]

welshboyinspain:

orys:

welshboyinspain:
no orys, nobrot dressingtable have got a lot of romanian motors and drivers who work for less than the poles.

But they don’t strike over that. They strike over that they don’t get a pay rise while other ND drivers from other countries do. And main concern is work condition (altough that somehow disapeared from the British version of the article).

maybe thats because ND are treating them badly because they think they can get away with paying the poles less than the french drivers?

Obviously this is not the case.

Btw: Poles are fed up with being underpaid - we have very low salaries compred to Western Europe and the living costs are already nearly the same as they are in here… I suspect that if not that there is a crisis and everyone wants to help Poland to keep its head above the water as it (so far) manages to do as only country in Europe, this would be long time solved…

[shropsbri]

Ok then I stand corrected by a better informed man and gratefully so.

[welshboyinspain]

ShropsBri:

orys:
In my industry, small van driving, from what I can see on Polish equivalent of Trucknet you can easly cash in 4000 zł per month. This is about 240 pounds per week. For driving a truck, 6000 zł is nothing unusual. This is about 350 pounds per week. Usually you work 3 weeks away, one week home, so this actually means about the British wages for week WORKED.

So that’s £1050 for the month if I read you correct and no pay for the week you don’t work.Do you think that’s acceptable Orys?

maybe thats why he drives a van in scotland and not poland

[gogan]

ShropsBri:
Yes,the Brits engaged on continental work do but the differential comes into play when you have foreign(not just easterns) wagons dropping a load over here and working all week on the 3000 litres they have brought in.This is what is helping put domestic firms under the cosh.There isn’t a secret stash of diesel no and if you tell me that foreign firms fill up their tanks over here then so be it and I would love to know how they do it.I hope these posts don’t come across with bad feelings as it is only a discussion.

Well, the rules are already in place to prevent the foreign wagons from working all week after tipping their import loads. The rules only allow them to deliver 3 domestic loads before they have to ship out again IIRC, though everyone knows the rules are not strictly enforced. Also, lets not forget that they can only work with whatever fuel they can fit in their tanks, which is unlikely to be more than 1500 litres. I do appreciate though that 1500 litres is more than enough for a weeks work.

This is not a uniquely British problem however. Italy has in recent times had broadly similar diesel prices to the UK, and they also border France, so surely Italian domestic hauliers must be facing exactly the same issues?

Personally I don’t think they foreign wagons really gain that much of an advantage from the cheap diesel when you look at the bigger picture. They can’t do domestic work in the UK forever as they only have whatever fuel is in the tanks, and eventually they either have to ship out empty or find a return load back to the continent. I’ve known foreign wagons parked up for 4 or 5 days waiting for a return load which probably barely covers the ferry costs, or shipping straight out empty to get to something on the continent. Both of these are financially crippling if you are relying on the profit margins from domestic UK work to keep your cash-flow positive, so any advantage they gain from the cheap diesel is soon wiped out when they have to head over the water again.

[dessy]

How come Stobarts haven’t been mentioned in all this then?

[welshboyinspain]

any excuse for a green elf to post the S word, it should come up [ZB]

[orys]

ShropsBri:
I have seen it written on here before that eastern european,if empty,will take the load regardless of rate because he’s empty and at least he’s earning something and you that you couldn’t understand why Brits wont.
It’s because of this attitude that contributes to pushing rates to the floor and ends up with firms making no profit and just doing it to cover the expenses for this month.

And do you think if you won’t take this jobs, the rates will go up? There will be always someone who will be happy to take the return loads, so you shooting your own feet by abandoning this opportunity.

The clue with return loads is that these are the loads, which can wait for someone going that way. The proper loads which are to be done at the certain time will still be on the market, always. It’s just like saying that you don’t take hitchikers, because they put Bus companies in trouble. But most of these hithchikers travel this way because they cannot afford or they don’t want to go by bus anyway. It’s the same with these loads - these loads in most cases would be otherwise not available at all, because there will be no profit in sending them for long distance. So thanks to this cheap return loads, the economy can sell more. Everyone is a winner.

So that’s £1050 for the month if I read you correct and no pay for the week you don’t work.Do you think that’s acceptable Orys?

No, it’s paid monthly, not weekly. So you can say it’s over 250 per week, or about 340 per week worked, as you prefer. And you can still do some work on the week you are home. And I can’t see why it should not be acceptable - at the moment, working part time, I live in Britain for about this money, I have 09 car, live alone in studio flat and can afford to go to the pub with my friends. It would be still even more buying power in Poland.

So if I look at this from economic point of view: yeah, it still a decent wage compared to other wages in Poland
If i look at this from wider angle: it’s not fair. Poland have one of the lowest wages compared to living costs in the whole EU. But we can’t do much about it. But the attitude “I am not rising my bum for that money” would not get as very far.

welshboyinspain:
maybe thats why he drives a van in scotland and not poland

Actually no. I am driving the van here, because I am living here and I study here.

And to be honest with you while my average weekly pay when I was working full time was about 450, which is I guess above average in this industry, I would prefer to work for Polish company who pays me above average. I woudl be earning 350 per week, but lived in Poland, what is still cheaper, and at least I would have decent van properly looked after Off course I cannot do it while living in UK, therefore I have to stick with the British company

I don’t know what about you moving to spain, but in my case the money is not the reason why I am here

[dessy]

welshboyinspain:
any excuse for a green elf to post the S word, it should come up [ZB]

Undercutting rates and [ZB] are one and the same on here!

[welshboyinspain]

orys:

welshboyinspain:
maybe thats why he drives a van in scotland and not poland

Actually no. I am driving the van here, because I am living here and I study here.

I know that you’re a student hence the after the remark its a bit of a wind up

orys:
I don’t know what about you moving to spain, but in my case the money is not the reason why I am here

I certainly didn’t come to spain for the money
I have posted my reasons somewhere, mainly tony blair, unemployed single mothers getting priority, chavs who don’t want to work, the yoof of today muslims, the list goes on I can’t remember all of it but if i find it I’ll copy it here, it was a fairly good rant oh and the weather

[welshboyinspain]

found it,
Edit postReport this postReply with quoteRe: Who should be Prime Minister?
by welshboyinspain » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:55 am

anybody as long as they’re not left wing socialist union loving war mongering liars who seem to think that unemployed single mothers or illegal immigrants deserve all the help and housing they can get and if you work hard to better yourself you don’t fit in and don’t get any help unless you are a minority.
got that little rant off my chest, out of the options i thing jezza or branson
thats some of the reasons i didn’t want to live in the UK anymore, there’s also a post from me somewhere about tony blair and gordon brown illegal war raiding pension funds and selling gold too cheaply but i can’t find it

[shropsbri]

Gogan:

ShropsBri:
Yes,the Brits engaged on continental work do but the differential comes into play when you have foreign(not just easterns) wagons dropping a load over here and working all week on the 3000 litres they have brought in.This is what is helping put domestic firms under the cosh.There isn’t a secret stash of diesel no and if you tell me that foreign firms fill up their tanks over here then so be it and I would love to know how they do it.I hope these posts don’t come across with bad feelings as it is only a discussion.

Well, the rules are already in place to prevent the foreign wagons from working all week after tipping their import loads. The rules only allow them to deliver 3 domestic loads before they have to ship out again IIRC, though everyone knows the rules are not strictly enforced. Also, lets not forget that they can only work with whatever fuel they can fit in their tanks, which is unlikely to be more than 1500 litres. I do appreciate though that 1500 litres is more than enough for a weeks work.

This is not a uniquely British problem however. Italy has in recent times had broadly similar diesel prices to the UK, and they also border France, so surely Italian domestic hauliers must be facing exactly the same issues?

Personally I don’t think they foreign wagons really gain that much of an advantage from the cheap diesel when you look at the bigger picture. They can’t do domestic work in the UK forever as they only have whatever fuel is in the tanks, and eventually they either have to ship out empty or find a return load back to the continent. I’ve known foreign wagons parked up for 4 or 5 days waiting for a return load which probably barely covers the ferry costs, or shipping straight out empty to get to something on the continent. Both of these are financially crippling if you are relying on the profit margins from domestic UK work to keep your cash-flow positive, so any advantage they gain from the cheap diesel is soon wiped out when they have to head over the water again.

There’s not much there I can disagree with really and as regards Italy if that’s the case it doesn’t really make it any better. They can’t do domestic work forever no but a couple of loads a week is enough to hurt a firm.
As regards the foreign wagons parked up you will see plenty in Telford,bulgys mostly and if Mr Monk is somewhere near with his wage then you can see why they park them up.

See,I think we’re coming at this from somewhere near the same place.My main gripe is with the big firms who cut the rates because they have a thousand wagons and therefore can operate on a slim margin.Look at Yodel,arn’t they losing something like a million a week.
Then you have the way of thinking that any money is better than none.

[shropsbri]

The clue with return loads is that these are the loads, which can wait for someone going that way. The proper loads which are to be done at the certain time will still be on the market, always. It’s just like saying that you don’t take hitchikers, because they put Bus companies in trouble. But most of these hithchikers travel this way because they cannot afford or they don’t want to go by bus anyway. It’s the same with these loads - these loads in most cases would be otherwise not available at all, because there will be no profit in sending them for long distance. So thanks to this cheap return loads, the economy can sell more. Everyone is a winner.

Do you not see that a return load is someones primary load and it is your way of thinking that has screwed it.
You say that these loads would not be available at because there would be no profit…well tough,they should incorporate that into the unit cost at the costing stage.
So thanks to cheap return loads,the economy can sell more and the only loser is the haulier…You are on the wrong side Orys.

So that’s £1050 for the month if I read you correct and no pay for the week you don’t work.Do you think that’s acceptable Orys?

No, it’s paid monthly, not weekly. So you can say it’s over 250 per week, or about 340 per week worked, as you prefer. And you can still do some work on the week you are home. And I can’t see why it should not be acceptable - at the moment, working part time, I live in Britain for about this money, I have 09 car, live alone in studio flat and can afford to go to the pub with my friends. It would be still even more buying power in Poland.

So if I look at this from economic point of view: yeah, it still a decent wage compared to other wages in Poland
If i look at this from wider angle: it’s not fair. Poland have one of the lowest wages compared to living costs in the whole EU. But we can’t do much about it. But the attitude “I am not rising my bum for that money” would not get as very far.

welshboyinspain:
maybe thats why he drives a van in scotland and not poland

Actually no. I am driving the van here, because I am living here and I study here.

And to be honest with you while my average weekly pay when I was working full time was about 450, which is I guess above average in this industry, I would prefer to work for Polish company who pays me above average. I woudl be earning 350 per week, but lived in Poland, what is still cheaper, and at least I would have decent van properly looked after Off course I cannot do it while living in UK, therefore I have to stick with the British company

orys:

ShropsBri:
I have seen it written on here before that eastern european,if empty,will take the load regardless of rate because he’s empty and at least he’s earning something and you that you couldn’t understand why Brits wont.
It’s because of this attitude that contributes to pushing rates to the floor and ends up with firms making no profit and just doing it to cover the expenses for this month.

And do you think if you won’t take this jobs, the rates will go up? There will be always someone who will be happy to take the return loads, so you shooting your own feet by abandoning this opportunity.

Can you see that with that frame of mind that it is infact you that are shooting your own feet but you shooting everyone elses as well!

[shropsbri]

Also,whilst you’re sitting at home in your studio flat and car or out having a beer with your mates just think about how you can afford to do that here but not in Poland and maybe then think again about the rights and wrong of doing loads for bugger all.
Do you want to bring the country you’ve moved to for a better life to the wage level of Poland?

[orys]

ShropsBri:
Do you not see that a return load is someones primary load and it is your way of thinking that has screwed it.

Well, would that make any dfference fot this someone, if I take his primary load for full price? He will be even more screwed, because I , his competitor, will earn even more…

You say that these loads would not be available at because there would be no profit…well tough,they should incorporate that into the unit cost at the costing stage.

Off course. And if it would be not economically viable, they would give away that business idea.

Case study: Recently I got idea of selling something from Poland on British e-bay. But I found that it’s too expensive to have it send to me here, so I gave up. But soon my friends will go to Poland by car and they bring me some of this stuff on their way back. Do I steal anyone’s job? No I am not stupid to pay more for stuff and transport than I can sell it for here, so no courier was to earn any money on me anyway.

But if I can have it transported to here at a cost of a good flask, I can make some profit on this, my friends will have a good drink, and someone here will can buy some product which is not available in UK which will give them more choice.

And, btw, my friends in question are British

So thanks to cheap return loads,the economy can sell more and the only loser is the haulier…You are on the wrong side Orys.

As I proved with my above example you are wrong. If they could send it for this rates, in most cases they wont sell it at all.

This is similar argument to discussion about internet piracy: if one downloads 1000 albums from the net, it does not mean that the industry lost price of album X 1000, because he would never could afford to buy 1000 albums.

And every haulier is welcome to take this back loads as much as anyone else.

As for your post scriptum: I had a two bed flat in Poland and I was subletting the other room. I had a car and had no problem to go to the pub with friends. Relatively when I was a student, I was earening better back in Poland than I earn here now. I did not moved here for money, as I already mentioned in that thread.

[riho]

Harry Monk:

ShropsBri:
I would be intrested to know how much the average wage is for eastern lads.

I understand a Bulgarian driver on international work earns around 25 euros a day. A quick Google suggests that a qualified nurse in Bulgaria earns 400 lev a month which is around £240.

It’s also worth making the point that eastern European firms which operate trucks permanently on third party work are breaking the law, since it is not possible to legally take a 45 hour rest period in a truck.

Is there any proof that they are working for 25 euros a day?
Or its just a made up amount of money?

[sapper]

I worked for Van de Poele in Belgium and was paid a guaranteed 570 euros a week for 60 hours, anything over that was paid as overtime. They have vehicles painted in the same colours but named “Romatrans” and “Slovatrans” double manned with Romanians. I was in the interview with 10 of them on the day I started and they were told that their salary was 1470 euros each per month, no night out money, no overtime paid and they did all the international work.

Sapper

[44_tonne_ton]

dailymail.co.uk/news/article … -free.html

dailymail.co.uk/debate/colum … ulous.html

[orys]

Daily Mail, first source to turn for objective information on Eastern Europeans

[gogan]

44 Tonne Ton:
Anger at Polish builders squatting in Army homes - and using British law to live there for free | Daily Mail Online

dailymail.co.uk/debate/colum … ulous.html

I appreciate what you are trying to do here, but personally I would have picked a source that has a bit more credibility, not to mention a smidgen of impartiality on the subject.

[harry_monk]

Gogan:

44 Tonne Ton:
Anger at Polish builders squatting in Army homes - and using British law to live there for free | Daily Mail Online

dailymail.co.uk/debate/colum … ulous.html

I appreciate what you are trying to do here, but personally I would have picked a source that has a bit more credibility, not to mention a smidgen of impartiality on the subject.

Oh ok, ok, you win, there aren’t loads of eastern Europeans living here who weren’t living here ten years ago, either taking jobs which were previously being done by nationals or claiming benefits, and 90% of drivers on the Dover-Calais ferries and the Euroshuttle, which I use four to six times a week are not eastern European. I was hallucinating the whole lot.

You were right and I was wrong. Sorry.