Snow driving

^^^ this^^^good post NMM.

NMM’s points should be noted by the many newer drivers we have who haven’t seen really bad conditons, an ill prepped lorry of dubious design that paid little heed to traction or stability, especially one that bends in the middle where you might be pushing 5 axles via one driven is no barrel of laughs when the partly frozen water that sits on top of our packed snow acts as the perfect lubricant in the scenarios described.

Some of the recent posts from others one could be forgiven for thinking that you could breeze down an iced road quite nonchalantly so long as you kept the steering straight, when in practice giving the conditions we get the respect they call for is needed.

Well remembered Carryfast, we did get some nasty winters back in the early 80’s, i drove an artic bulker at the time was it 82/83?, coldest and most heavily snowed i’ve known England since the winter of 63 when i was a boy, the temp never got above freezing for 3 weeks solid.

The daily run i did out across Norfolk the main roads up around Diss were single track for well over a week with snow piled up around 4ft deep both sides where the diggers had managed to make a track of some sort with passing places to pick your way through but still on 4" or so of pot holed frozen solid snow, the farm where we delivered to was good as gold, they dug about 5 miles of lanes out with their tractor buckets and regardless of the hour of the day or night the farmer or his son would follow us back out to the main road after we delivered (three times a day regular we delivered within the hour so they knew if we didn’t arrive something was up and would come look for us, no cab phones then) the product to keep their boilers and therefore their animals fed.

Without wishing to derail this excellent thread, was that the decade the old and IMO infinitely better days of Britain ended i wonder, where we all pulled together got through and got the job done with a smile on our faces, we didn’t seem to take ourselves or life so seriously then, little did we know, it was the time when our government of the day assisted with and helped complete the dismantling of and destruction of our industries and the sale of our country and its services, i don’t think we’ve experienced a pulling together and a national feeling of helping each other out because that was how it was done since about the mid 80’s.

To be fair the lorries of the time were more basic and competent, i had a 2800Daf at the time and it proved itself more than up to the job in the conditions, there’s not a hope in hell that my current MAN with Arsetronic box would cope with the same conditions, not as anything could as NMM points out the massive increase in population has seen such traffic volumes that it would prove impossible to get through unless you had off road capability with a small enough vehicle to take advantage.

If we get those conditions again its going to be interesting to see what happens.

Carl Usher:

newmercman:
I apologise, I hadn’t realised that you were a supertrucker, my mistake…

It’s you that’s claiming that, not me/

Regardless of whether you’re a ‘supertrucker’ or not, why don’t you go back to posting as Rob K? At least then everyone knew that you were a ■■■■.

newmercman:
Minus 30, or even 40 isn’t so bad, unbelievable as it may sound as all the humidity has gone, obviously it’s cold, cold enough to freeze your snot and taking a deep breath will hurt as it won’t have warmed up much by the time it hits your lungs, but you could walk around the truck in just a t shirt and not be too uncomfortable, as soon as you get inside again you instantly warm up.

When there’s a wind though, now that’s a different story, any exposed skin goes hard in seconds and frostbite comes after a few moments, it is a painful experience that you can’t explain, it has to be experienced to be appreciated. In the correct clothes though it is manageable, but you have to slow right down if you do anything physical as the deep breath thing can get you in trouble pretty quick, a couple of degrees drop in your core temperature and you go into hypothermia.

The good thing about that kind of cold is that ice is no longer slippery as the film of water that sits on top of it is what makes it slippery and that goes at -15c or so, it’s not quite as grippy as a bare road as it’s smooth, unlike a road, but you would be shocked by how much grip is available.

The hard to drive on stuff is the 0c to -10c stuff, that’s what we’re getting here now as it’s unseasonably warm and it’s what you get in Britain most of the time, it’s awful to drive on and you really do have to have your wits about you when driving in it.

Absolutely spot on. As soon as winter starts all I want is for it to get down below -15’c or so and stay there until Spring for the reasons you’ve said.

They keep saying this year is going to be an exceptionally mild winter and many people think that’s wonderful…yeah, so we can have constant ice, thawing and re-freezing and freezing rain instead of dry packed snow that’s very easy to drive on and deal with for everybody involved.

As for the wind. I remember the first time I went to Manitoba in winter, would have being Jan or Feb 2010. I’d come over the great wilderness to the east without too much issue, in my old Freightliner Classic that had no thermometer. I pulled in to the Headingley Flying J for diesel on what looked a lovely sunny day with only a bit of wind. I put a jumper on, all I’d have needed in NB for that time of year, opened the door, stepped out on to the diesel tank and proceeded to almost freeze to death on the spot. That small bit of wind was actually more like an industrial blast freezer to be found in a factory preparing to ship frozen goods. I’ve never leapt back in to the truck so quickly whilst exclaiming so many swear words.
I put on all my winter gear and then dieseled up in absolute misery while my eye lids, nose and mouth, the only exposed bits on me froze solid rendering me unable to speak properly for a good while afterwards. God, that was horrible.

albion1971:

scanny77:
I say you made the right choice. Why should you be hindered by inferior drivers? If they cant be bothered doing a skid pan course then they can plod along while the better drivers get on with driving instead of putting an old saying into place. Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows the fool?

Ah well not quite true. Did you know if you are skid trained or a skid trained instructor you are more likely to have an accident than someone with no training! I know as I was a skid trained instructor!
Apparently it makes you over confident.

I can see your point but I think the training should be compulsory. How many crashes occur which would have been avoided had the correct reaction to a situation been implemented? I remember my uncle being in a near miss when I was young. Snow and ice on the road and he jammed the brakes on almost rear ending a car. Cadence braking could have made a big difference (pre-ABS days)

I really cant believe the replies in favour of this supposed to be professional drivers actions.

scanny77:

albion1971:

scanny77:
I say you made the right choice. Why should you be hindered by inferior drivers? If they cant be bothered doing a skid pan course then they can plod along while the better drivers get on with driving instead of putting an old saying into place. Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows the fool?

Ah well not quite true. Did you know if you are skid trained or a skid trained instructor you are more likely to have an accident than someone with no training! I know as I was a skid trained instructor!
Apparently it makes you over confident.

I can see your point but I think the training should be compulsory. How many crashes occur which would have been avoided had the correct reaction to a situation been implemented? I remember my uncle being in a near miss when I was young. Snow and ice on the road and he jammed the brakes on almost rear ending a car. Cadence braking could have made a big difference (pre-ABS days)

Hmmm you could be right but I think a lot depends on who is being trained. It was the police that made that statement about being trained.
Anyway as I said I did a two week course to learn to be a skid insructor (using skid frames) which have been proven to be very effective and give more or less the same feeling as the real thing. I also spent a few years(not every day) training many different types of people and it was clear to see some grasped what they were taught and others did not have a clue what was going on.
The main thing that we tried to insil was that the area used was a lot bigger and wider than a road and as most did not have quick enough reactions to catch or control an oversteer or understeer situation they would end up in a field or a wall.
The best way to control a skid in not get into one in the first place.
After all my experience I would say that the only way it has helped me is to keep off the brake if a skid occurs. Harder than you might think.

gingo:
I really cant believe the replies in favour of this supposed to be professional drivers actions.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Wow! Cheers mate, I’ve waited nigh on 8 yrs on here for somebody to aim the old… ''So called professional driver" chestnut/cliche at me.
I was feeling left out.
I’m touched and honoured, :smiley:

Ok you got the wording wrong, but it’s near enough for me. :wink:

gingo:
I really cant believe the replies in favour of this supposed to be professional drivers actions.

I can’t believe you are a holder of C licence, or may be you are a summer-weekend driver.

Ya did right robroy pulling out and using that lane,its the best way to keep lanes open,i know you said it wasn’t gritted, but if it was then it needs traffic to make the grit work.you were only doin what the traffic womble should have been doin.

Motorway driving is only the half of it ,trying to get out of these high up Derbyshire villages is very hard ,I need to be up at 0130 to leave at 3 to ensure I can get out ,it’ snows up here when it’s raining 2 miles away down in town ,if I slide away down the village there’s car parked on the side off the road which is all down hill for about a mile .

albion1971:
The best way to control a skid in not get into one in the first place.

It’s obvious that trucks can’t be driven like rally cars at least on the road.While even the driving skills of a professional rally driver won’t save an over steering tractive unit before the outfit folds up in most cases for example.

Carryfast:

albion1971:
The best way to control a skid in not get into one in the first place.

It’s obvious that trucks can’t be driven like rally cars at least on the road.While even the driving skills of a professional rally driver won’t save an over steering tractive unit before the outfit folds up in most cases for example.

Exactly the point. We did training not only on cars but on a part loaded LGV (rigid) and when that went it went! Scary believe you me.
Centrifugal force!

albion1971:

Carryfast:

albion1971:
The best way to control a skid in not get into one in the first place.

It’s obvious that trucks can’t be driven like rally cars at least on the road.While even the driving skills of a professional rally driver won’t save an over steering tractive unit before the outfit folds up in most cases for example.

Exactly the point. We did training not only on cars but on a part loaded LGV (rigid) and when that went it went! Scary believe you me.
Centrifugal force!

Or is it centripetal acceleration? :wink:
Off you go Carryfast! :smiley:

Why not ask ourselves a few rhetorical questions here.

  1. Was it traffic using lane 1 which kept it open?
    2 If the answer to Q1 is yes, would traffic using lane 2 also keep that lane open?
  2. Would 2 lanes moving allow a greater separation between vehicles?
  3. Finally, is it Robroy using lane 2 which has ruffled some feathers, or the passing other vehicles?

I’ve often used lane 2, if there’s a light snow covering, and the lemmings are all following tail lights in lane 1. Sometimes only driving a few mph faster than lane 1, but with a clear road in front, and no plonker sitting behind, waiting for an opportunity to reprofile my rear crumple zones.

Evil8Beezle:

albion1971:

Carryfast:

albion1971:
The best way to control a skid in not get into one in the first place.

It’s obvious that trucks can’t be driven like rally cars at least on the road.While even the driving skills of a professional rally driver won’t save an over steering tractive unit before the outfit folds up in most cases for example.

Exactly the point. We did training not only on cars but on a part loaded LGV (rigid) and when that went it went! Scary believe you me.
Centrifugal force!

Or is it centripetal acceleration? :wink:
Off you go Carryfast! :smiley:

Either or Evil its bloody frightening. Don’t get him started. :laughing:

Any time the word Centrifugal Force is used, what is really being described is a Lack-of-Centripetal Force.

Olog Hai:

Carl Usher:

newmercman:
I apologise, I hadn’t realised that you were a supertrucker, my mistake…

It’s you that’s claiming that, not me/

Regardless of whether you’re a ‘supertrucker’ or not, why don’t you go back to posting as Rob K? At least then everyone knew that you were a ■■■■.

Am I missing something here?

albion1971:

scanny77:

albion1971:

scanny77:
I say you made the right choice. Why should you be hindered by inferior drivers? If they cant be bothered doing a skid pan course then they can plod along while the better drivers get on with driving instead of putting an old saying into place. Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows the fool?

Ah well not quite true. Did you know if you are skid trained or a skid trained instructor you are more likely to have an accident than someone with no training! I know as I was a skid trained instructor!
Apparently it makes you over confident.

I can see your point but I think the training should be compulsory. How many crashes occur which would have been avoided had the correct reaction to a situation been implemented? I remember my uncle being in a near miss when I was young. Snow and ice on the road and he jammed the brakes on almost rear ending a car. Cadence braking could have made a big difference (pre-ABS days)

Hmmm you could be right but I think a lot depends on who is being trained. It was the police that made that statement about being trained.
Anyway as I said I did a two week course to learn to be a skid insructor (using skid frames) which have been proven to be very effective and give more or less the same feeling as the real thing. I also spent a few years(not every day) training many different types of people and it was clear to see some grasped what they were taught and others did not have a clue what was going on.
The main thing that we tried to insil was that the area used was a lot bigger and wider than a road and as most did not have quick enough reactions to catch or control an oversteer or understeer situation they would end up in a field or a wall.
The best way to control a skid in not get into one in the first place.
After all my experience I would say that the only way it has helped me is to keep off the brake if a skid occurs. Harder than you might think.

That is the beauty of the course though. I was told not only how to regain control of a skid but more importantly, how to avoid getting one in the first place :wink:

I agree that it is hard to fight instincts (jump on brakes in ANY situation) but the only way to do that is to provide an alternative through training. If something happens then you have to react instinctively because thinking is not an option. There simply isn’t time to assess, look at options, select one then execute your choice. On most roads you need to have done it by the time you get to the end of ‘what do I do?’. An emergency stop is not always the right answer but that is pretty much all we are taught during normal lessons. That is now the only instinctive reaction that people know because nobody has told them any different. Throw in adverse weather conditions and it is not going to end well. A compulsory skid pan course could drastically alter the odds of a safer outcome. For car drivers anyway. 99% of trucks seem to be autos now so that life saving pedal on the left is not fitted any more :neutral_face:

That is the beauty of the course though. I was told not only how to regain control of a skid but more importantly, how to avoid getting one in the first place :wink:

I agree that it is hard to fight instincts (jump on brakes in ANY situation) but the only way to do that is to provide an alternative through training. If something happens then you have to react instinctively because thinking is not an option. There simply isn’t time to assess, look at options, select one then execute your choice. On most roads you need to have done it by the time you get to the end of ‘what do I do?’. An emergency stop is not always the right answer but that is pretty much all we are taught during normal lessons. That is now the only instinctive reaction that people know because nobody has told them any different. Throw in adverse weather conditions and it is not going to end well. A compulsory skid pan course could drastically alter the odds of a safer outcome. For car drivers anyway. 99% of trucks seem to be autos now so that life saving pedal on the left is not fitted any more :neutral_face:

I understand what you are saying and I completely agree but I still say a lot depends on the person that has been trained.
You are always going to get one or two that think…Oh I am skid trained I can handle this and it makes them over confident and they take more risks.Hopefully though they are in the minority.

Regarding your last sentence there is also a bit of controversy whether de clutching is the best thing to do but that is another story. eg cadence braking is more effective when you do not de clutch.

Some of you talk about anti skid training, in other threads I have read that drivers in UK pass their test and did their training on automatics with backup cameras. Don’t want to sound rude, but what the hell, you expect this drivers to have professionals skills when they get a DL like that ,on autos+cameras. :unamused:

albion1971:
You are always going to get one or two that think…Oh I am skid trained I can handle this and it makes them over confident and they take more risks.Hopefully though they are in the minority.[/b]

Regarding your last sentence there is also a bit of controversy whether de clutching is the best thing to do but that is another story.

From the point of view of the details of the situation described by the OP and assuming the worst case scenario that it’s an artic it’s obvious that the most foreseeable situations are either sudden loss of traction under power or one of the over taken doing something silly.In either case declutching it to remove all the torque at the drive axle and/or to prevent the sudden reversal of torque loading by suddenly backing off the accelerator while under power,seems to be more beneficial than not.The important bit being at ‘skid training’ won’t help much if/when none of that works before the slipping drive axle of the unit gets pushed side ways by the trailer,which can be a matter of split seconds and will more likely take a miracle to save the situation than some skillfully applied opposite lock. :bulb: