A bit of good news it seems?
bbc.com/news/business-56815522
Cue all the luddites arriving any second : “I don’t use 'em me. Death trap waiting to happen with no hard shoulder! What if something breaks down in the dark with no lights? I stay in lane 2 me where it’s safe”. This, coming from the same drivers who have been driving up and down the A1 for the past 30 years without any issues.
DCPCFML:
Cue all the luddites arriving any second : “I don’t use 'em me. Death trap waiting to happen with no hard shoulder! What if something breaks down in the dark with no lights? I stay in lane 2 me where it’s safe”. This, coming from the same drivers who have been driving up and down the A1 for the past 30 years without any issues.
No issues on the A1 for 30 years?
Really?
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Smart motorways were trialed with lots of refuges and monitoring. The lesser safety standards were accepted.
They were rolled out with insufficient monitoring and reduced refuge availability.
Looks like Gov cutting costs with their fingers crossed hoping for the best.
People die because of incompetent politicians.
Not before time the designs are reverting to what was thrilled and approved, not what some minister cut costs on to further their own career.
Franglais:
DCPCFML:
Cue all the luddites arriving any second : “I don’t use 'em me. Death trap waiting to happen with no hard shoulder! What if something breaks down in the dark with no lights? I stay in lane 2 me where it’s safe”. This, coming from the same drivers who have been driving up and down the A1 for the past 30 years without any issues.No issues on the A1 for 30 years?
Really?
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Smart motorways were trialed with lots of refuges and monitoring. The lesser safety standards were accepted.
They were rolled out with insufficient monitoring and reduced refuge availability.
Looks like Gov cutting costs with their fingers crossed hoping for the best.
People die because of incompetent politicians.
Not before time the designs are reverting to what was thrilled and approved, not what some minister cut costs on to further their own career.
In fairness he’s not saying there’s been no issues on the A1 for 30 years, he’s saying that conditions are similar (ie no hard shoulder) on the A1 or any dual carriageway… and often worse (non motorway standard slips etc)
Franglais:
No issues on the A1 for 30 years?
Really?
Or any other dual carriageway. Can you recall people complaining about the same thing with all the dual carriageways in the UK? They have the same speed limits as motorways, the majority of them have no hard shoulder, no lay-by for sometimes several miles or more and things like horses and slow moving tractors are allowed to use them but unlike smart motorways don’t even have any overhead signs. But somehow they’re OK but smart motorways aren’t.
Conor:
Franglais:
No issues on the A1 for 30 years?
Really?Or any other dual carriageway. Can you recall people complaining about the same thing with all the dual carriageways in the UK? They have the same speed limits as motorways, the majority of them have no hard shoulder, no lay-by for sometimes several miles or more and things like horses and slow moving tractors are allowed to use them but unlike smart motorways don’t even have any overhead signs. But somehow they’re OK but smart motorways aren’t.
Ironically you’ve made the perfect case for what’s the point of motorways in this stupid new utopia.
They were made with the provision of no stopping, which by definition means no red X signs, no horses, no tractors and with a hard shoulder precisely ‘because’ they were ‘supposed’ to be a different class of road to ordinary dual carriageways.
The clue is in the name ‘motorway’.
Instead of which we’ve now got better motorway class dual carriageways also with hard shoulders and no red X gantries, than motorways.
You know like the A3.Resulting in loads of traffic now trying to avoid ‘motorways’ like the …M3.
Then they’ve got the nerve to call those substandard ‘motorways’ smart.
When they are actually an anything but, unfit for purpose, oxymoron with the definition of a motorway class road.
They couldn’t make it up. 
Conor:
Franglais:
No issues on the A1 for 30 years?
Really?Or any other dual carriageway. Can you recall people complaining about the same thing with all the dual carriageways in the UK? They have the same speed limits as motorways, the majority of them have no hard shoulder, no lay-by for sometimes several miles or more and things like horses and slow moving tractors are allowed to use them but unlike smart motorways don’t even have any overhead signs. But somehow they’re OK but smart motorways aren’t.
Given a choice would most drivers prefer to have hard shoulders on both motorways and dual carriageways?
I don’t know, but I expect they would.
Dual carriageways have (almost) never had hard shoulders, they are not being taken away.
Motorways, arguably the safest roads, in the UK, are being modified, and removing the hard shoulder makes them less safe.
Why wouldn’t anyone be upset about a retrograde step?
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There were trials involving frequent refuges and high quality monitoring. Those trials were decided to be safe enough.
The roll out was with fewer refuges and less monitoring.
It was, an awful decision. A scheme designed to save cash with only a small increased risk to users, turned into a cheapskate penny pinching scheme that was researched. Almost criminal in its incompetence.
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That is all ignoring the obvious differences in the amount of traffic on these roads.
More traffic means more likelihood of breakdown, punctures, accidents etc.
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you couldn’t make it up , the government are proposing ways of making motorways safer & the idiots above want to carry on as we are , The reason being motorways are like the a1 apparently , so little regard for life , hopefully the next poor sod who looses there life on these so called smart motorways isn’t there son / daughter / grandkid or in the lady interviewed case , her o/ h
Retrograde step? ^^^^ I’ll grant that ALR and smart motorways are far from perfect but how quickly we forget the almost constant stop start crawl on sections like the M1 near Luton, the M6 past Brum and the M42. Of course we still get holdups on these sections, but nowhere near the magnitude in pre smart days.
The simple and brutal truth is that if you’re concerned or worried about these sections then simply choose another route.
the maoster:
Retrograde step? ^^^^ I’ll grant that ALR and smart motorways are far from perfect but how quickly we forget the almost constant stop start crawl on sections like the M1 near Luton, the M6 past Brum and the M42. Of course we still get holdups on these sections, but nowhere near the magnitude in pre smart days.The simple and brutal truth is that if you’re concerned or worried about these sections then simply choose another route.
This 100%
Morons not able to use the road correctly is the real issue.
Conor and DCPCFML : what a thick user name, why don’t you both wear your thick high visibility vests as you are both from Yorkshire and you both called me thick , as they say ; Yorkshire born , Yorkshire bred , thick in the arm and thick in the head, so put that in your pipes and smoke that .You simpletons .
the maoster:
Retrograde step? ^^^^ I’ll grant that ALR and smart motorways are far from perfect but how quickly we forget the almost constant stop start crawl on sections like the M1 near Luton, the M6 past Brum and the M42. Of course we still get holdups on these sections, but nowhere near the magnitude in pre smart days.The simple and brutal truth is that if you’re concerned or worried about these sections then simply choose another route.
I am not arguing anywhere that motorways don’t need widening, am I?
Talking about the improved traffic flow is a distraction.
The argument IS about the type of improvements made.
The same traffic improvement would be made with a 4 lanes plus hard shoulder, or 4 lanes plus proper monitoring and more refuges as was trialed and approved.
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You’re arguing with yourself if you think anyone wants to retain the old roads!
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This is IMHO about cost cutting and untested systems, and those responsible for it.
msgyorkie:
the maoster:
Retrograde step? ^^^^ I’ll grant that ALR and smart motorways are far from perfect but how quickly we forget the almost constant stop start crawl on sections like the M1 near Luton, the M6 past Brum and the M42. Of course we still get holdups on these sections, but nowhere near the magnitude in pre smart days.The simple and brutal truth is that if you’re concerned or worried about these sections then simply choose another route.
This 100%
Morons not able to use the road correctly is the real issue.
If everyone used roads correctly, we wouldn’t need hard shoulders anywhere would we? Everyone would drive cautiously to line of sight, with safe stopping distances.
We also wouldn’t need crash barriers, seat belts, far fewer ambulances, etc etc.
There are morons out there, so we DO need roads to protect us all from bad drivers.
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Swear about the morons driving all you like mate, and I’ll join in, but they ain’t going away anytime soon![emoji3]
Thankfully, as expected, those in charge arranged for the smart sections currently being constructed to have more refuges built in whilst the equipment workers and lane closures were all in place.
Oh no, silly me, always get such things confused, no one drawing mega salaries in charge of these appears to have a bloody clue what day of the week it is, hence the above isn’t happening
Thing about these SM’s is, it might be alright for us sitting perched up out of harms way in a sodding great wagon, if we break down suddenly on a completely unlit section, its only us on our own and we’re mostly able bodied (even if getting on a bit in such circs we’ll be remarkably swift getting over the barrier) and we’ve got anything up to 40odd tons of vehicle behind us properly lit with reflective tapes etc to protect us if one of our clown contingent does its worse, bit different when a family or people less able bodied find themselves coming to a halt in their standard car, which offers little to no protection against what might be coming barrelling down the road whilst they try to get everyone out and find some place of safety.
Yes, we as alleged professional drivers should have no issues and no worries about SM, but we aint the only road users out there and the chances are that in the event of a SM accident, it won’t be one of us lying on a mortuary slab, it’ll be the poor sod(s) from the car.
Franglais:
I am not arguing anywhere that motorways don’t need widening, am I?
Nobody with the exception of you mentioned widening. What we’re talking about is making use of the available space. You know as well as I do that there is not a limitless pot of gold to pay for the infrastructure to actually widen the roads we have, what is happening is merely utilising the space that’s already been purchased prior. We all know you like to snipe constantly but how about offering alternative ideas to how things are going. If they stopped with immediate effect smart motorways I’m sure you’d be here sniping about how you getting held up was all the fault of Boris.
Drivers on dual carriageways are generally more aware of the potential dangers
Drivers on motorways expect there to be the safe hard shoulder which they have been brought up with for decades
Expecting drivers to change their thinking in what is a relatively short space of time is/was asking too much
And all for the sake of money saving and the green lobby being put over safety
Actually Rog I’ll qualify that; “drivers on motorways are generally complacent “. That about sums it up.
The point is why should I suffer longer journey times and traffic delays because some people don’t understand/ can’t be arsed to learn about smart motorways?
msgyorkie:
the maoster:
Retrograde step? ^^^^ I’ll grant that ALR and smart motorways are far from perfect but how quickly we forget the almost constant stop start crawl on sections like the M1 near Luton, the M6 past Brum and the M42. Of course we still get holdups on these sections, but nowhere near the magnitude in pre smart days.The simple and brutal truth is that if you’re concerned or worried about these sections then simply choose another route.
This 100%
Morons not able to use the road correctly is the real issue.
- another.
Since they first came into use I’ve had no issues whatsoever getting from A to B to C and back to A again in all weathers and lighting conditions. I do get rather vexed at the Highways Agency’s way of setting the speed reductions 18 miles before where the lane closures and cones actually start (eg. 50mph > 40mph from the end of the Woodhead Pass at J35A when the lane closure doesn’t start until the Tinsley bridge) but there’s no argument that the new 4 lane/ALR sections have greatly reduced previous bottlenecks in peak periods.
The reality is that for the vast majority of the motorway network there isn’t the space to physically widen the carriageway any further to accommodate an extra lane in each direction AND a hard shoulder because of how close the original motorway was built to industry, houses and other infrastructure (the 4 motorways surrounding Birmingham being a good example). Look at how long it took them to widen the A1 in N Yorks with an extra lane and hard shoulder and that was in a rural area with only 5 overpasses to deal with around Catterick, but because of the terrain they had to completely reroute a section of it with a new carriageway. Now imagine that happening on the M5 and M6 on the north and west side of Birmingham. It just isn’t ever going to happen.
the maoster:
Franglais:
I am not arguing anywhere that motorways don’t need widening, am I?Nobody with the exception of you mentioned widening. What we’re talking about is making use of the available space. You know as well as I do that there is not a limitless pot of gold to pay for the infrastructure to actually widen the roads we have, what is happening is merely utilising the space that’s already been purchased prior. We all know you like to snipe constantly but how about offering alternative ideas to how things are going. If they stopped with immediate effect smart motorways I’m sure you’d be here sniping about how you getting held up was all the fault of Boris.
Yeah, “I love sniping at Boris”, which is why I started a thread saying how the present Gov seem to be doing something right.
Faultless logic.
When talking of “road widening”, I thought it clear I meant having 4 running lanes rather than 3 running lanes. Apparently that wasn’t clear though, so I hope you’ll take this as an explanation.
I haven’t suggested that Smart Motorways are totally wrong. I have suggested that the trial and approval of SM.s with frequent refuges and proper monitoring, being morphed into fewer refuges and not enough surveillance was wrong.
I haven’t said that the new wider (4 running lane) roads must have all have a hard shoulder*. I have said that the SM should have followed the trials with sufficient kit and personnel looking at cameras and radars.
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*I do however say that having full hard shoulders are safer on all roads, but haven’t said that is a practical and cost effective solution.
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If I compare smart motorways in the uk with those in Holland and/or Belgium, it is not so much the difference in number of refuges, but the number of overhead gantries that is noticable.
If in Holland, for instance the A2 north of Geleen, where they change in the morning and evening mostly to 3 lanes, you have an overhead gantry about every mile, so the possibilities to warn for a potential problem are so much greater, and thus much safer.