Scabs

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
81

del949:

If I was an employee and in a union I would have both a manager and a union official telling me what to do. [zb] that for a game!

I don’t know how long since you left Canada, or how long you lived and worked in the UK as an employee befor that but you have some really antiquated ideas abot unions

1967, I worked as an employee from 1975 til 1982. Self employed ever since. However, I don’t live in a bubble. I know people that were NUM officials and I live in an ex mining town in an ex mining area. I read the Daily Mail sometimes too, so that should push a few buttons for you!

Just to spoil it for you: I also read the Mirror, the Express, The Sun or the Times all depending on whether the McDs I buy breakfast in has any papers and who has already grabbed the Daily Mail. I do prefer the Mail though as it plays to my predjudices.

82

If the majority of your contact with unions was with the NUM i’m not surprised that you have such a jaundiced view of them.
However, someone with your experience of life should realise that a generalisation based on such limited contact is of no real value.
There are many hundreds of union officials out there who do no more than seek to help their members/ colleagues.
They do this without continual confrontation with bosses and without the need to recourse to industrial action at the drop of a hat.
I doubt though that anything I say will convince you to moderate your perceptions, after all, you can lead a horse to water etc

83

del949:
If the majority of your contact with unions was with the NUM i’m not surprised that you have such a jaundiced view of them.
However, someone with your experience of life should realise that a generalisation based on such limited contact is of no real value.
There are many hundreds of union officials out there who do no more than seek to help their members/ colleagues.
They do this without continual confrontation with bosses and without the need to recourse to industrial action at the drop of a hat.
I doubt though that anything I say will convince you to moderate your perceptions, after all, you can lead a horse to water etc

Shh, I know all that really but where’s the fun in that? I like my predjudices, they’re comforting, and it keeps the thread going if I air them occasionally. :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp:

I have no employees and never will have again, I’m also very unlikely to ever work again as an employee, so what I think makes no difference to anyone here but it does give life to a topic if I rattle a few peoples cages.

84

del949:

strike action is a pretty ridiculous concept

It has to be an action of last resort, not first option.

Not having anything to do with Canada myself (nor wanting to) I wonder if the Brits who go over there to take crap jobs are regarded as immigrant riff raff as over here, or if the ones taking good jobs are regarded as “stealing our jobs” by the Canadians

As I said in my first post, I’m not a big believer in unions, they had a place many years ago, but now there are too many self serving meglomaniacs in the hierachy that they’re likely to cause more problems than they solve. I don’t believe that unions are good for business, a business should be competitive, unionisation brings work levels/standards down to the lowest common demoninator, that makes competitiveness hard to achieve.

However, if you are a member of a union and accept the benefits that it brings and your colleagues decide to strike, then you have to stand alongside them, if you don’t it makes a mockery of the whole union idea, unions allow workers to take a lot more than they sometimes deserve, to get that you may have to give something back once in a while, you can’t have your cake and eat it.

Now to how the Brits are regarded in Canada, well the ones working for the crappy firms are indeed viewed as riff raff, lots of them are riff raff anyway, they try to carry on being British (wearing Union Jack t-shirts, ■■■■■■ and blinding every other word and going on the ■■■■ all the time, having punch ups etc) but there doesn’t appear to be a general impression that the ones working on good firms are stealing jobs, there are a few that don’t like us, but for the most part we’re accepted as one of the lads, the Canadians are a lot more tolerant of us than we (the British) are of the Eastern Europeans.

85

newmercman:
Mickfly,

Why do you have to wait two years for PR?

Some have it before they even arrive in Canada, some get it within the first year, whatever, you don’t need PR to leave a crap job, I left BFS after 4 long months, I was on the HRSDC temporary foreign worker programme, I wasn’t even on the PNP at that time so I didn’t even have a nomination for residency, so you’re talking out of your eminox pal.

Two years is, on average how long it’s taking in Alberta now on the APNP to get PR, and some get refused at the last hurdle.
Getting it before you arrive takes about 4 years.
In Alberta you can’t arrive on the APNP system as a TFW and then just go to another company, it takes them ages to get an LMO for you.
I can only comment about Alberta because that’s where I was.

newmercman:
Drivers sitting for days over breakdowns and hanging around for loads without pay are mugs mate, simple as that, we all break down every now and again, I did a few weeks back, I took my truck into Peterbilt in Idaho Falls, they took me to a hotel which my firm paid for, I got paid $120 for the day they took to fix my truck and my meals were paid for too. At the end of November I had a load cancelled on me, I had to wait a day for my next load, I got paid for that day, if I have to reset my hours on the road, I get paid for it, ANYTHING my company tells me to do and I get paid for it, whether it’s driving, waiting or breaking down, if I’m at work, I get paid, that’s the way almost all the Canadian Companies work, the ones that don’t have to recruit drivers from abroad :open_mouth:

Good for you, that’s how it should be at all the companies
There’s the thing though…YOU know that the firms recruiting from Europe are crap, but there was very little info about them other than their own BS until the the advent of facebook and blogs there is now a little bit more genuine info out there.

newmercman:
Also you say it doesn’t cost the company anything to sit a truck, well how does that work then? AFAIK Canadian trucks still require paying for, they still need insurance for 365 days each year, they still don’t earn revenue while they’re parked, they still depreciate every day whether they’re moving or not :bulb:

AFAIK H&R lease their trucks on a mileage basis so, no wheels turning means minimal costs for that truck.

newmercman:
So quit your ■■■■■■■ and moaning, you chose to return to England when you got [zb]ed over at H&R, you could’ve stayed and made a success of it at another company, you moved back to England and got another job, you could’ve done the same in Canada if you didn’t have such a chip on your shoulder :unamused:

My ■■■■■■■ and moaning is merely to warn people with families that they could end up in dire straights. Single people can do OK and we could have done OK moneywise (unless they cut the miles completely).

Chip on my shoulder? Never.

I can be called sarcastic/boring etc etc, but I’ve never had a chip on my shoulder about anything.

86

Getting back to the original post — Hypothetical Question —
I wonder how many of the anti union guys, if they were unhappy in their jobs, were offered a job for £5.00 an hr more and better working conditions at a union place would say, no I don’t believe in unions.

87

Fenman:
A lot of people on here are slagging off the unions, well there are other benefits to be had from joining a union.
Years ago I was a shop steward in the old TGWU. I received a phone call one night telling me that one of our drivers had ran off the road and had been killed. He was in an AEC Mandator that is how long ago it was.
To cut a long story short, he left a widow and three children, without the might of the union behind him his widow would have got nothing.
The union had the front tyre that blew and caused the accident examined, and the conclusion was that it was damaged due to faulty manufacture.
His widow received compensation, which she would have not had without union help.

Going back to TK Bedford days. I was on strike when we were getting £10.70 for forty hours and had to work 80 odd hours to make a decent wage. The company I worked for had over 40 trucks and after 10 months I was the longest serving driver there. The strike lasted 6 weeks and the wage went up to £17.50 for 40 hours.
We lost our job because we were outvoted on a return to work, the condition was that the people who organised the strike would not be allowed back.

I also went on strike for 6 weeks during the national drivers strike, we all voted for it and all stuck together, and improved pay and conditions again.

Would I do the same today. NO
For the last 15 yrs before I retired I was an owner-driver, and as any O.D knows it is a very lonely occupation. When you are miles from home and you are wondering where the next load will come from no union in the world is going to help you, so you get into a very different mindset.

To answer the question in the post-
If someone does not agree with a strike and crosses a picket line, then that is his choice he has stood by what he said.
If someone voted to strike and then still crosses a picket line, then to my mind he is a ■■■■■■ of the first degree.
Tony

well said tony but dont understand if u whent on strike & improved pay & conditions why would u not do it again-alan 42 years in urtu best thing i ever did

88

Fenman:
Getting back to the original post — Hypothetical Question —
I wonder how many of the anti union guys, if they were unhappy in their jobs, were offered a job for £5.00 an hr more and better working conditions at a union place would say, no I don’t believe in unions.

If it meant joining the union and all the BS that goes with it I can honestly say I would say no.

89

newmercman:
Now to how the Brits are regarded in Canada, well the ones working for the crappy firms are indeed viewed as riff raff, lots of them are riff raff anyway, they try to carry on being British (wearing Union Jack t-shirts, ■■■■■■ and blinding every other word and going on the ■■■■ all the time, having punch ups etc) but there doesn’t appear to be a general impression that the ones working on good firms are stealing jobs, there are a few that don’t like us, but for the most part we’re accepted as one of the lads, the Canadians are a lot more tolerant of us than we (the British) are of the Eastern Europeans.

I agree with you there.
I made a point of NOT wearing football shirts or pasting the union flag or union jack all over my truck, but we met some real ■■■■■■■■ scumbags working for H&R who most definitely would give Canadians in that small town the impression that we (the Brit truckers) were all riff raff!
Never had a problem on the road with any other drivers of any nationality.

90

Unions?
They must be very proud of their work in this place…
I have spent most of this week in and out of a local factory where the majority of employees are Eastern European.
It is a unionised workplace and they are on £6.50 an hour according to the security man in the gatehouse who says he is on £6.10 an hour.
My questions are, what rate would the general workforce have been on 10 yrs ago, when I remember it being the place everyone wanted to get into, and if they called a strike (for a better hourly rate) would you think it was justified?

91

don’t recognise the company you are referring to although I have my suspicions.
As to would I think a strike for better wages justified…NO.
Untill ALL other methods had been tried, if these all failed, then yes I would say it was justified.
But during those negotiations I would expect the management and workers to actually discuss the viability of the company.

And for those of you who think this is wrong, consider this.

Everytime an employer pays a crap wage to an employee, the government (you,via taxes) pay that worker credits and benefits to make up his/her wage.
If you enjoy subsidising greedy management and bosses then continue with your belief that workers should take whatever is offered and be gratefull.

92

Reply to Alan
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and if I had known the quality and integrity of the people we were supposedly representing then I would not have bothered.
The bottom line is that some people have the backbone to stand up for what they believe in and some do not.
I do not regret my time as a shop steward as I believe that a union in the workplace can be a good thing, if it is managed fairly.
The thing that spoils it is when employees start thinking they can run the company.

Looking at the posts about the Canadian drivers prompts me to account a story that may enlighten a few on here.

I used to drive a dump truck many years ago in Milwaukee Wisconsin, I was a member of the Teamsters Union and on very good money., but if it snowed in the winter and you couldn’t get the trucks out or there was no work because of the snow, you only got 2 hrs pay and then you were sent home. I once said to a fellow trucker “Why do you only have twenty minutes for lunch when you get deducted 30minutes” the reply was “ my boss employs me to make him money” At the time coming from a country where Harold Wilson was Prime minister and union power prevailed I could not understand this. But I can now.
The bottom line is if you do not make your company money then you are out of a job.
Tony

93

Big Jon’s dad:

Carryfast:
The reason why we’re priced out of the market is because of the lack of any protectionist trade barriers

If you have trade barriers it makes all the imported tat more expensive or we have to make our own tat.

We then can’t export our tat because the other countries that we raised trade barriers against, play ■■■ for tat, and keep us out of their market.

Have you thought this though properly? Are you willing to forgo the big telly, the cheap clothes, the exotic foods etc we have available because of the global market.
You want to return to the 1950’s?

No the late 1960’s will do just fine thanks.In our house we had a British made colour tele and how can the Chinese play ■■■ for tat considering the trade deficit which we’ve got with them already under your global free market idea :question: .But at least in the 1960’s the money paid for that tele went into the wages of British workers who then gave some of it back to our public services,like the NHS,in income taxes.As it is now that cheap Chinese tele actually costs us a lot more in unemployment benefits and/or lost tax revenues because even if British workers can find a job now it’s more likely to be a low paid service sector hamburger outlet/security/warehouse type job than a better paid manufacturing one.Which is why we’re well on the way to being a banana republic without any bananas to sell.

94

Bollix. The reason the industries died was because the militant minorities thought they could overthrow governments. They all ■■■■■■ and moaned, went on strike and destroyed their own industries. Even Dyson, the man who swore he wouldn’t leave Wiltshire, finally got ■■■■■■ at british workers who demanded more than he could provide and left.

Your british telly was a valve telly which took 5 minutes to warm up and always smelled of dust, and that would go wrong regularly and need to be carried out by 2 blokes and take 3 weeks to fix. You are trying to paint that era as some kind of Ambrosiac time, but it wasn;t. Now you get a telly built in China which is replaced when it goes wrong.

We live in an age where we expect things now. That is simply how it is. We have to work hard to get what we want, if we want nice things, but a new TV is within most workers reach now while a colour TV was a rarity in the 60s. As for cars, well in the 80s, had I been given the choice between a Datsun 120 or a Triumph Acclaim, I would have taken the Datsun because it was better. This “buy british” for quality is pure crap. Hell, they were running the New Zealand lamb ads for decades.

So take your notions of the global market and either revise them or poke them up your jacksie because that is clearly where they come from.

As for drivers being considered riff raff, well I find that astounding. The UKs biggest radio station has a presenter that openly admits he hates trucks, and rips into the industry every chance he gets, yet you think we are considered badly here?

My Christ… this is plain madness!!

95

bobthedog:
The UKs biggest radio station has a presenter that openly admits he hates trucks, and rips into the industry every chance he gets

Yet he drives for Flying Eagle :laughing:

96

Very good point…

Hang on, is Moyles a truck hater too, or is his bugbear against underwear? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :wink:

97

We can shout about how good the Union where, in regardless which country, but after they stopped “closed shop” and Tatcher kicked some arses, we where in an upgoing line, since the 70’s - 80’s people had it never so good.
The national income was growing to exeptional heights, and everybody new that the honeymoon period couldn’t last forever, we are now in a period where there is something expected from us. and we will need towork and keep our head down for a long while, or keep on striking and lose everything we have, and the respect of the nations around us.

About British quality Carryfast, have a laugh and go to the British motorcycle museum in Birmingham, and look under every British quality build motorcycle, and adore the tray with the oil in it, look than at the japanese and German bikes of the same era, and he presto, no tray, no leaks.
This is what killed the whole British industrie and the Nation, the ignorance that you made a quality product, you didn’t and didn’t want to see it that you didn’t, standards had moved up since the Victorian times, BL, Norton, Triumph, BSA , Enfield should have moved on and brought a line of vehicles tha was wanted by the public, not hanging on, on what was. Even the British public was sick of them and bought foreign goods. (Datsun Cherry was a big seller in the UK) (Lucas called the king of darkness by the British public how good was that)
And the best thing Tatcher did was closing the mines, after that we had constant electricity and the whole economics improved rapidly, the miners strikes where hard on their way to kill the country. Did all these strikes do any good than…?
Many will disagree with me, but I think they did more damage than good, if you only look what is left of the British manufacturing industry, the mines, shipyards and steel, nothing… all gone.
There is a saying in German: if you ask you can get, if you ask to much, you will get nothing!
By the way, was reading in a Dutch paper (Volkskrant) a article about Britain, and it states that we are less interested in each other, for example in the 80’s 57% wanted an increase in benefits, at this moment it’s only 27%, the gap between rich and poor is getting bigger, but we don’t want to pay for it anymore.

98

bobthedog:
Bollix. The reason the industries died was because the militant minorities thought they could overthrow governments. They all ■■■■■■ and moaned, went on strike and destroyed their own industries. Even Dyson, the man who swore he wouldn’t leave Wiltshire, finally got ■■■■■■ at british workers who demanded more than he could provide and left.

Your british telly was a valve telly which took 5 minutes to warm up and always smelled of dust, and that would go wrong regularly and need to be carried out by 2 blokes and take 3 weeks to fix. You are trying to paint that era as some kind of Ambrosiac time, but it wasn;t. Now you get a telly built in China which is replaced when it goes wrong.

We live in an age where we expect things now. That is simply how it is. We have to work hard to get what we want, if we want nice things, but a new TV is within most workers reach now while a colour TV was a rarity in the 60s. As for cars, well in the 80s, had I been given the choice between a Datsun 120 or a Triumph Acclaim, I would have taken the Datsun because it was better. This “buy british” for quality is pure crap. Hell, they were running the New Zealand lamb ads for decades.

So take your notions of the global market and either revise them or poke them up your jacksie because that is clearly where they come from.

The choice between having something like a Honda Acclaim (not a Triumph) or a Datsun 120Y and having a cheap Chinese tele :unamused: :open_mouth: :laughing: says everything about your ideas of how to run the country.As it is the tele here is still not Chinese it’s a 50 inch Plasma made in Belgium but could just as easily been made here and it would have been just as good.My first car,at 17,was a proper few years old British Triumph (2.5 PI),which I could afford with the wages earnt working in the manufacturing sector of the economy,before Thatcher zb’d it all up.But I had to make do with a BMW 3.0 SI after that for a while instead of the V12 Jag which I always preferred but could’nt afford to buy or run on council wages.I eventually got my first one when I got off the council onto trunking.Both the Triumph and the Jaguars which I 've had have been more reliable than the BMW and cost a lot less to maintain in parts costs which is why the BMW was so cheap to buy used and cost it’s original owner a fortune in depreciation when I bought it.But Jap ricers I would’nt even bother to buy anyway and the only thing as good,if not better,than a British car is an American one and in that context have you seen how much 1960’s yank muscle cars are worth now.That’s because unlike the oriental zb they go like a Ferrari but you can fix them with just a 1/2 and 9/16 spanner and a hammer when they eventually wear out which will be a lot later than those Jap heaps will.

99

s a 50 inch Plasma made in Belgium but

Assembled from parts made in Japan?

100

del949:

s a 50 inch Plasma made in Belgium but

Assembled from parts made in Japan?

Hopefully not but who knows although having said that the picture quality is noticeably better than the main Japanes competitors and just being built in Belgium from Jap bits probably would’nt do that :question: .But if I want to replace it now I don’t even think that the choice between a European made tele and a Chinese/Japanes one is there now anyway.That’s the so called free market in action. :imp: :unamused: