Scabs

[big_jon_s_dad]

andytrew:

jimti:
I can’t help thinking that if it wasn’t for unions we would still have ship yards and coal mines, I could be wrong, but somehow doubt it.

I think you will find if you have a good memory it was Maggies wonderful government that closed mines ,shipyards etc not the unions at that time, but i stand to be corrected, Andy

Well, we can agree Maggie’s government was wonderful at any rate.

When the miners were on strike hereabouts, they were already the highest paid employees in the area, but because they could cut off essential supplies to the power stations they greedily demanded even more pay. FFS they were already very well paid compared to other workers. Result, diversification of types of fuel for power generation and sourcing of fuel from abroad. Miners go from being highly paid to being unpaid. Genius’s weren’t they?

Unions are not all for one and one for all. There is a lot of intimidation of the less militant members. See the original post for typical examples. Name calling, shunning, sometimes physical abuse. Union officials tend to be the militant ones that attend meetings and get elected to positions because most members have a life outside work and aren’t into the class warfare stuff of workers against the bosses.

Striking makes no sense to me. Assuming you don’t get paid while on strike, and at the end of the strike you get a pay increase, how long does it take for the pay increase to wipe out the lost pay while you were on strike? Meanwhile the customers are looking for other suppliers so you put your company and your jobs at risk. Pity your union bosses jobs aren’t on the line too, then we might see a bit more effort at negotiation before strikes were called.

One reason the Canadian drivers here are so anti union is that we are all happiest when left to do our own thing. We aren’t a social(ist) bunch.

[the_maoster]

I couldn’t make a sweeping statement as to whether I would or wouldn’t cross a picket line. I think each case would have to be judged on an individual basis, eg, if nurses were striking over the closure of a childrens cancer ward then no, I would not cross the line. However, if bankers were striking over not getting their bonuses, then I would not only cross the line I would happily drive over the lot of them to do it.
These two examples are at the extreme end of the range and would probably never happen, but the principle remains the same.
In the past I have crossed a picket line at Tilbury because in my opinion the dispute was about workers, not managements greed (note I said my opinion), and on the other hand when on tankers I refused to cross a picket line and enter a refinery because I wholeheartedly agreed with the then fuel protestors.
I think it all comes down to individual moral standards TBH.

[dle1uk]

i know an ex copper, both him and his wife were in the force during the miners strike… they retired approx 10 years ago and bought a nice small holding in scotland, anyways they both say if it was,nt for the miners strike they would have had to work another 10 years!! Ive seen some pay slips and it puts some of todays bankers wages to shame…

i did join a union and became part of the comitee for the workplace, we did some good in respect of harassment/disciplinary hearings ect better working conditions,

however all this was done at commitee level as such and no involvment from area branch, the employer then decided to enforce a major change of contract and this was to big for us to deal with and we bought in the area rep… i can honestly say that through this guys actions several guys were sold down the river… he immediately got the shop stewerd in with managment (today he is a manager there) many lies and cover ups were told to the workforce from this guy, he even turned up to meetings ■■■■■■■ long story but 5 of us went on our own and won a case against the employer for the change of contract, whilst others who listened to area rep sold their contracts for £50… It took 12 months for this to go through and all the time the five of us were being told by colleagues we were stupid/stood no chance ect once we had won many would not talk to us,

everyone as there personal feelings ect in respect of strike, to me if you can live by your decision thats your choice. my family comes first and i would do everything possible to look after them, but before i had kids would I have had the same thoughts? i honestly dont know.

i certainly would,nt slag anyone off for trying to support his family…

[harry_monk]

Most of our manufacturing industry seems to have been lost after the unions lost the bulk of their powers.

[bowser]

i would’nt dream of being in a union for any reason , they are a good idea on paper but they dont work the way they should . i remember getting caught in the middle of the dockers strike whilst queing at grimsby docks. i’ve never felt that threatened in my life and they were’nt even grimsby dock workers they were from liverpool . at one point they dragged a stacker driver ( the big container ones ) from his cab and threw him into the sea , cat weasel was his nickname if i remember correct . i was then followed from the docks by a couple of gruffty looking gents in a transit all the way to ferrybridge sevices were i badly needed to stop for a peeeee , luckily they did’nt follow any further .
unions aint for me and never will be …

[del949]

All the usual comments re unions. Mostly dealing with the unions of 20/25 years ago
Strangely, some large companies (I cannot mention their names because I received the info in confidence) are now approaching the unions to engage in workplace agreements with the unions.
These bosses are prepared to do this simply because they wish to avoid individual discussions with terms and contracts etc and find it a cost effective way forward.
To cover a few of the pre mentioned posts, yes the unions did have a LOT to do with the disintegration of some industries but they also did an awful lot of good for the working man , but obviously this has never got mentions in the news etc.
Bad unions were usually the result of apathetic membership, members who thought that as long as they paid their weekly dues that was the end of their contributions, thus meetings became dominated by extreme members who perhaps had their own agendas.
But most unions never got mentioned, even in Maggies anti union campaign years, because they were simply getting on with the job without resorting to strike action.
There cannot be many drivers on this forum who have actually been on strike as a lorry driver, the last (and I think only) national haulage strike was in '79.
Most lorry drivers involved in that strike will remember that the miners and dockers who had called for “one for all etc” when themselves on strike, actually handled vehicles who were acting as strike breakers during the haulage strike. But there is no doubt that the strike resulted in a good pay deal, and all the companies that cried they would be driven to the wall were shown to be wrong, they were still there years later.

As one poster commented, the main part of the good work was done at branch level and regional/national actions were far less satisfactory.
That is without doubt true, but only in branches where members bother to attend and make their voices heard.

Back to the OP re scabs.
Scabs are simply workers who have a different point of view to the others.
However if there as a workplace pay agreement in force then it would seem only right that after a genuine democratic vote to withdraw labour then that decision should hold fast. If the decision had been not to strike, would they have expected anyone who disagreed to do their own thing anyway ?
Wether you work normally with the “scabs” after the dust has settled, is really down to yourself and this would obviously depend on how much you feel you have lost because of their non actions.
I would assume in todays climate, a decision to strike was taken really as a last resort and so I guess that the issues are quite severe.

[carryfast]

del949:
All the usual comments re unions. Mostly dealing with the unions of 20/25 years ago
Strangely, some large companies (I cannot mention their names because I received the info in confidence) are now approaching the unions to engage in workplace agreements with the unions.
These bosses are prepared to do this simply because they wish to avoid individual discussions with terms and contracts etc and find it a cost effective way forward.
To cover a few of the pre mentioned posts, yes the unions did have a LOT to do with the disintegration of some industries but they also did an awful lot of good for the working man , but obviously this has never got mentions in the news etc.
Bad unions were usually the result of apathetic membership, members who thought that as long as they paid their weekly dues that was the end of their contributions, thus meetings became dominated by extreme members who perhaps had their own agendas.
But most unions never got mentioned, even in Maggies anti union campaign years, because they were simply getting on with the job without resorting to strike action.
There cannot be many drivers on this forum who have actually been on strike as a lorry driver, the last (and I think only) national haulage strike was in '79.
Most lorry drivers involved in that strike will remember that the miners and dockers who had called for “one for all etc” when themselves on strike, actually handled vehicles who were acting as strike breakers during the haulage strike. But there is no doubt that the strike resulted in a good pay deal, and all the companies that cried they would be driven to the wall were shown to be wrong, they were still there years later.

As one poster commented, the main part of the good work was done at branch level and regional/national actions were far less satisfactory.
That is without doubt true, but only in branches where members bother to attend and make their voices heard.

Back to the OP re scabs.
Scabs are simply workers who have a different point of view to the others.
However if there as a workplace pay agreement in force then it would seem only right that after a genuine democratic vote to withdraw labour then that decision should hold fast. If the decision had been not to strike, would they have expected anyone who disagreed to do their own thing anyway ?
Wether you work normally with the “scabs” after the dust has settled, is really down to yourself and this would obviously depend on how much you feel you have lost because of their non actions.
I would assume in todays climate, a decision to strike was taken really as a last resort and so I guess that the issues are quite severe.

Since the union laws brought in by Thatcher and the dismantling of British industry the idea of union membership is pointless because the only real bargaining tools they’ve ever had is general strike action in which all industries workers support others when needed.Between those laws and the closure of British industry anyway we’ve now reached the logical conclusion of what her ideas mean in reality in which the interests of large global companies come before those of the developed nations that created them.Which just means stagnation and recession in the developed western economies because incomes can no longer be kept in line with prices.

But in the context of employment in general it’s better to work self employed anyway and if you need a union in the case of being employed to maintain conditions of employment then in my experience it’s usually a firm which is’nt viable enough to provide a good standard of living anyway.In that context how often is it the case that the union ‘thinks’ it’s won a good deal from the management only to find at worst that the place is closing down a year later or at best that good wage deal one year comes at the expense of three bad ones over the following years and redundancies in addition.

[big_mac]

jimti:
I can’t help thinking that if it wasn’t for unions we would still have ship yards and coal mines, I could be wrong, but somehow doubt it.
All unions I know of look after themselves before the workers, so I have always opted for being independent of them, If I don’t like my job and the boss doesn’t want to change it, I get a job I do like.
They had their place in Victorian Briton, trying to keep little boys out of chimneys but not in today’s world, there are far too many Foreign companies willing to take over anything we do from manufacturing to services, go on strike and someone else will fill the gap.

Scab is a very emotive word, I wonder what the word should be for someone who tries to bring a company to it’s knees when times are hard?You should always remember, we all have rights, you have the right to strike, and everyone else has the right to work, that was a right the unions fought for so if you try to take it away what does that make you?

some how the name bob crow springs to mind given that he thinks pulling northern drivers on strike will help their cause.

my personal opinion is they should be grateful of having employment at all

[harry_monk]

BIG MAC:
my personal opinion is they should be grateful of having employment at all

We should all be. We should all work 80 hours a week to pay the rent/mortgage and buy a tank of petrol. We should be grateful. At the end of the week we should all have to queue up before Mr Tesco and tug our forelocks and say something like “Gaw bless you, Guvnor!”

[fuse]

I envy the railway workers and firemen with their unions just look at the pay and conditions,the hours the security…no east europeans under cutting them,we are fools and dont come back and say their jobs are more skilled than ours we all sell ourselves short because to many ask how high do I jump,whats the fine ,whats the new rule that is good for me, WTD poa,s dont make me laugh

[rambo19]

I’m a london bus driver.
I was in UNITE for 18 months, but have now left.
Why?
IMO, the union reps are crooked.
Would I cross a picket line?, depends on why they were on strike.
However, if I did not cross the picket line, I would be up in front of the boss for sure!

[del949]

In that context how often is it the case that the union ‘thinks’ it’s won a good deal from the management only to find at worst that the place is closing down a year later or at best that good wage deal one year comes at the expense of three bad ones over the following years and redundancies in addition

But that argument applies even if you negotiate your own deal.
I don’t think that there is any doubt that the best paid, secure, working mens jobs (in general) are those with union recognition.

[big_mac]

Harry Monk:

BIG MAC:
my personal opinion is they should be grateful of having employment at all

We should all be. We should all work 80 hours a week to pay the rent/mortgage and buy a tank of petrol. We should be grateful. At the end of the week we should all have to queue up before Mr Tesco and tug our forelocks and say something like “Gaw bless you, Guvnor!”

over the xmas period i worked everyday from friday,to tuesday, every week is friday to wed,thu off and more often than not ,doing 65 + hrs,get 2 wks off without pay,( s/employed),have to put up with moaning punters,great wages most wks,some times crap in jan/feb,but i choose to do the job,the hrs ,and shifts,THE JOB.

wages are often better than on the trucks,home every night,start/finish times my choice,but i choose to do it. no union as far as i know as ever looked after cabbies.
this is possibly the last unregulated job left?

[big_jon_s_dad]

Harry Monk:

BIG MAC:
my personal opinion is they should be grateful of having employment at all

We should all be. We should all work 80 hours a week to pay the rent/mortgage and buy a tank of petrol. We should be grateful. At the end of the week we should all have to queue up before Mr Tesco and tug our forelocks and say something like “Gaw bless you, Guvnor!”

You should be grateful that someone has invested in a business that provides you with employment.
If you don’t like the pay or the conditions, find an employer that values you more.
If an employer is so bad that they can’t get employees to work for them, they go bust.

If employees become too greedy, employers start looking for ways to manage with less employees, or with cheaper employees.

Start your own business and see life from the other side. G’wan, you know you want to be a gaffer really.
I started my business from scratch with less than £100.00 by working part time, after my regular job.
I worked evenings and weekends to build up a customer base.
When I quit the day job, I worked 7 days a week to build up a business that employed 4 more people.
Tell you what though, none of those 4 people worked as hard as I did, though some of them think they did.

I had a large turnover but not much profit after paying for employee costs.
Now there is just me again and I will never have another employee.
My profit is almost as good now from a smaller turnover and my life is much less stressful.

[mickfly]

All the replies from ‘Canadian’ truckers who are paid by the mile, and are happy to sit on loading docks for hours on end with no pay, or sit around company yards all day, then run all night, just like the good old days in the UK before the unions screwed everything up by getting rid of weight/load/time bonuses and helping to bring in some protection for fatigued drivers who were under pressure to kill themselves for the boss!

[big_jon_s_dad]

I’m trying to put some vague thoughts into words so this may not come across in quite the way I mean it to. Anyway:

It seems to me that there are at least 2 types of people posting in this thread. (I am ignoring those people who stir things up for political reasons)

We have the independant type such as the long distance drivers in Canada, and a few like minded individuals in the UK, who just want to get on with earning a living and don’t need to worry about what their mates are doing or thinking. These people have no use for unions. This group is likely to include self employed people and small business owners.

Then we have other people that need to be part of a group or have a gang for support, not being confident enough to sort their lives out without relying on the rest of their gang to back them up. These people are not the type to take risks by starting their own businesses or by emigrating to a new country. They are far more likely to be found holding their hand out for a bailout when things don’t go their way. This group is likely to be envious of groups that are more successful than themselves and instead of trying to improve their own situation are more likely to ■■■■■ about how unfair it all is.

[ady1]

I LOVED THE UNIONS,when they were at the height of there powers at rolls royce i was a appretice,when there was a strike we wernt allowed to go to work as wed have to cross the picket lines[no harm would of come to us as our dads,uncles were on them],but powers that be said we were to stay away and our pay would be sent to us ,brilliant,weeks at a time.
apart from my dad was really struggling as they seemed to be on strike every week,we wernt meant to vote as just appretices but with the chance of weeks at a time off i was there with mates and our hands were straight up for a strike ,but i hadnt seen my dad behind me, he went ballistic with me and procceded to take all my wages off me to pay towards the bills ,i kept out the way after that

[big_jon_s_dad]

mickfly:
All the replies from ‘Canadian’ truckers who are paid by the mile, and are happy to sit on loading docks for hours on end with no pay, or sit around company yards all day, then run all night, just like the good old days in the UK before the unions screwed everything up by getting rid of weight/load/time bonuses and helping to bring in some protection for fatigued drivers who were under pressure to kill themselves for the boss!

It seems most of the Canadian drivers (expat brits) that post here are quite happy with their lot. The life doesn’t suit everyone but at least you had the guts to try.
It didn’t work for you, it didn’t work for Robbbie either. Hmm, you aren’t Robbbie are you?
Any way, stop ■■■■■■■■ about it and do something else. The world doesn’t owe you anything, you have to work to get where you want to be.

True North Strong and Free.

I am a genuine Canadian Citizen by the way, not a “Canadian” trucker.

[mr_b]

ive got no time for unions i was in utru until i got suspended from work, phoned them up expecting a highly paid lawyer to charge to my defense, they told me i was (zb)ed with little hope of saving my job so i cancelled my subs and argued my own case and won.
the fact that the strike collapsed suggests the support wasnt as strong as you thought so the few hot heads have no right to dictate how others behave.
get on with it lifes too short if you got along before carry on as usual.

[mickfly]

Big Jon’s dad:

mickfly:
All the replies from ‘Canadian’ truckers who are paid by the mile, and are happy to sit on loading docks for hours on end with no pay, or sit around company yards all day, then run all night, just like the good old days in the UK before the unions screwed everything up by getting rid of weight/load/time bonuses and helping to bring in some protection for fatigued drivers who were under pressure to kill themselves for the boss!

It seems most of the Canadian drivers (expat brits) that post here are quite happy with their lot. The life doesn’t suit everyone but at least you had the guts to try.
It didn’t work for you, it didn’t work for Robbbie either. Hmm, you aren’t Robbbie are you?
Any way, stop ■■■■■■■■ about it and do something else. The world doesn’t owe you anything, you have to work to get where you want to be.

True North Strong and Free.

I am a genuine Canadian Citizen by the way, not a “Canadian” trucker.

Yes we know you are a genuine Canadian Citizen (I wasn’t referring to you), and luckily when your lad went to work in Canada he didn’t go as a temporary foreign worker for a BS company, but went straight to hourly pay on box vans.

The drivers who have the gumption to get off their arses and move to another country do not do it lightly, and unfortunately believe the lies of the big companies, although there only seems to be one left recruiting in the UK now, that’s H&R Transport.

“It seems most of the Canadian drivers (expat brits) that post here are quite happy with their lot”

These are the drivers who have PR (permanent residency, usually gained a few years ago) and in many cases were willing to accept BS working conditions to get it (their choice).

The ones who were not willing to work for nothing and chose to come back last about 2 mins on these forums as they are immediately subjected to personal attacks by the people who feel guilty about taking it up the jaxy for two years!

I have friends who are still over there, and they put up with breakdowns lasting days (NO PAY), sitting in company yards all day waiting for a trailer(NO PAY) then running 13 hrs through the night.
Sitting at meat plants for hours, where 36hrs is not uncommon, (NO PAY).
If you get sacked with ‘just cause’ (no proof required) you are screwed, no unions, no welfare benefits AT ALL, and you will end up back in blighty, broke.

BTW: "It didn’t work for you, it didn’t work for Robbbie either. Hmm, you aren’t Robbbie are you?
Any way, stop ■■■■■■■■ about it and do something else. The world doesn’t owe you anything, you have to work to get where you want to be."

Thanks for the personal insults, I’m not Robbie, and I have ALWAYSs worked hard and done VERY well, BUT I will not work for nothing, here or anywhere else, and if you go to Canada as a Temporary Foreign Worker, you will work for nothing.

Maybe the unions should set up shop in Canada.