Carryfast:
Yeah you’re right and you’re learning because the (early) 1970’s were,like the 1960’s,a golden era in the context that unemployment rates were relatively low and the unions kept wages more or less in line with prices.Which kept the economy moving contrary to the propaganda that they probably taught in schools since Thatcher came to power.The break point was the 1973 OPEC oil price increases and the mistake that the NUM made in bringing down Heath’s Tory government to be replaced by the worse ones of Wilson,Callaghan,and then zb Thatcher.
When the Country elected Heath and his Government there was never a clause saying the unions were the ones actually in charge, this is without all the other arguments why I and millions of other people do not like unions. How dare they bring down a Government that the majority of the nation voted for, be it a good of bad choice, we have elections every 4 or 5 years to pick a new government. Unions just want to rule they are the reason there is no Great in Britain any more. The unions have destroyed more jobs than any government could ever have managed.
Funny thing is the NUM didn’t like it when the Government done to them what they did to the Government, Scargill was after glory like his predecessors, well he found out the nation wouldn’t stand for it and through HIS folly lost thousands their livelihoods and cost our nation billions in lost coal because he wouldn’t let SCABS go and keep the mines from flooding.
When the nation vote a Union into power then let them try to run the country, there is nothing stopping them from trying to form a government, but of course they would never do that because they know their true value would show up at the polling booths with a very low vote count, better to pretend they are good for the nation through self appointment than let the people have their say.
Long live the SCAB I say, at least they tried to save the mines, unlike Scargill.
And yes I am old enough to remember all of this. I didn’t like the way the unions were trying to dictate to the nation then, I I am glad they got their teeth knocked out.
jimti:
Long live the SCAB I say
And yes I am old enough to remember all of this. I didn’t like the way the unions were trying to dictate to the nation then, I I am glad they got their teeth knocked out.
That’s just what happened.So look where it’s got us over 30 years later.A country that’s almost a zb banana republic without any bananas to sell.
But if the miners were’nt trying to save the British mining industry in 1984 why the zb were they out there getting knocked about by a bunch of overpaid coppers.
bobthedog:
I have no argument about the V8s of the 60s… Hells bells, that was still 50 years ago!! Next you will be saying that we should still be using DC3s instead of these silly, new fangled jet engined airliners… You are suggesting that we go about in Mustangs. I think you are trying to justify excesses. I am actually beginning to think of you as something of an anachronism… Well no, I’m not, but you seem to want to be.
My “knowledge” of industry has nothing to do with the fact that you said the UK was modelled on the US industry. I didn’t say it, you did. And you raised China into this whole thing, not me. I can just see your beloved unions doing really well in China. They are really tolerant of protests- they just send in the tanks.
Assuming that you’re not some loopy Chinese commie loving anti american zealot who thinks that a Mustang is an excessive piece of decadent yank imperialism how the zb can that car be considered ‘excessive’ in view of the fact that they were selling them to ordinary working class factory workers in 1965 faster than we were selling poxy Cortinas and Minis here.
The reason why I raised the issue of China is precisely as you say they are a bunch of nutters who’ve made a great version of hell for themselves by taking most of the western economies’ jobs at cheap cut price wages on the basis that if they upset their guvnors they’ll probably be shot.But the hypocritical zb guvnors and governments here have decided to take advantage of all that after claiming,not that long ago,that those zb’s in the Orient were a threat to our freedom,which cost around 50,000 American lives and a few more Australians.If they’d have left the zb’s alone to just flog each other cheap rate crap instead of giving them our jobs the yanks could have sold even more of those decent cars to all of those blokes who got wiped out fighting those Oriental zb’s.
But yeah the UK industry was modelled in large part on US industry which is how we came to have large US firms like Ford etc etc set up here during the early part of the 20 th century just like they did at home.
Carryfast:
That’s just what happened.So look where it’s got us over 30 years later.A country that’s almost a zb banana republic without any bananas to sell.
Better what we have now than what we had in the 60’s 70’s and 80’s, the winter nights without Electricity, no fuel for the fire to keep warm, no jobs for anyone, no money to buy food, nostalgia is a wondrous thing, isn’t it If you honestly believe we were better off then than we are now, you must be living on a different planet to the rest of us!
There are people who have never worked a day in their lives better off today than my family were in the 60’s while in work.
Carryfast:
But if the miners were’nt trying to save the British mining industry in 1984 why the zb were they out there getting knocked about by a bunch of overpaid coppers.
are you saying the miners weren’t very well paid then■■?
Scargill conned the miners into striking to bring down the government, it was never about saving the mines, closures were inevitable whatever happened, some mines were all but empty and unprofitable, the miners wanted good wages so would have had to accept that the money needed to come from profits, mines that weren’t viable would have reduced wages in the long term, but Scargill didn’t tell them that.
The British copper was doing his job as required by the nation, the fact that Scargill gave them the opportunity to earn some overtime is hardly their fault. Do you think police should have been paid less in the 80’s?
Carryfast:
That’s just what happened.So look where it’s got us over 30 years later.A country that’s almost a zb banana republic without any bananas to sell.
Better what we have now than what we had in the 60’s 70’s and 80’s, the winter nights without Electricity, no fuel for the fire to keep warm, no jobs for anyone, no money to buy food, nostalgia is a wondrous thing, isn’t it If you honestly believe we were better off then than we are now, you must be living on a different planet to the rest of us!
There are people who have never worked a day in their lives better off today than my family were in the 60’s while in work.
Carryfast:
But if the miners were’nt trying to save the British mining industry in 1984 why the zb were they out there getting knocked about by a bunch of overpaid coppers.
are you saying the miners weren’t very well paid then■■?
Scargill conned the miners into striking to bring down the government, it was never about saving the mines, closures were inevitable whatever happened, some mines were all but empty and unprofitable, the miners wanted good wages so would have had to accept that the money needed to come from profits, mines that weren’t viable would have reduced wages in the long term, but Scargill didn’t tell them that.
The British copper was doing his job as required by the nation, the fact that Scargill gave them the opportunity to earn some overtime is hardly their fault. Do you think police should have been paid less in the 80’s?
Watch out Jimti when, carryfast’s on a loosing battle he tends to go off topic. So expect all sorts of tangents before arriving back to the original post topic, thus resulting in the uncovering of Unions useless position in today’s world. With a sprinkle of supported anarchy from eras ago.
Carryfast:
That’s just what happened.So look where it’s got us over 30 years later.A country that’s almost a zb banana republic without any bananas to sell.
Better what we have now than what we had in the 60’s 70’s and 80’s, the winter nights without Electricity, no fuel for the fire to keep warm, no jobs for anyone, no money to buy food, nostalgia is a wondrous thing, isn’t it If you honestly believe we were better off then than we are now, you must be living on a different planet to the rest of us!
There are people who have never worked a day in their lives better off today than my family were in the 60’s while in work.
Carryfast:
But if the miners were’nt trying to save the British mining industry in 1984 why the zb were they out there getting knocked about by a bunch of overpaid coppers.
are you saying the miners weren’t very well paid then■■?
Scargill conned the miners into striking to bring down the government, it was never about saving the mines, closures were inevitable whatever happened, some mines were all but empty and unprofitable, the miners wanted good wages so would have had to accept that the money needed to come from profits, mines that weren’t viable would have reduced wages in the long term, but Scargill didn’t tell them that.
The British copper was doing his job as required by the nation, the fact that Scargill gave them the opportunity to earn some overtime is hardly their fault. Do you think police should have been paid less in the 80’s?
Sounds like another (Tory) re writing of history to me.The miners strike of 1973 was about wages the miners strike of 1984 was about saving the industry from closure.Both of those disputes were justified considering the wages that the miners were getting in 1972 versus most other workers including my dad who earnt a lot more as an engineer in a factory but he knew all about their job having a best mate who’d been called up during the war to work down the pits.But the industry has gone now to be replaced by more expensive coal dug by underpaid workers.So you got what you wanted and our balance of payments reflects that.However the NUM made a massive mistake in thinking that they’d get a better deal by forcing an election and getting a Labour government in than by settling with Heath instead.That says more about so called Labour governments than the NUM.
So you really think that you’d be better off on the dole now than working in the 1960’s.Says everything about Tory thinking.My dad bought a near new 3 bedroom house in Surrey for £5000 in 1965 and he was earning around £25 per week for 40 hours per week plus overtime and then it got even better than that.That house sold for the same price as this one which would now cost a worker around £350,000 probably more around 70 x as much What would that £25 per week need to be now to be able to afford that (if) wages had kept pace with 1960’s living standards and how would the dole pay for a zb mortgage on it if someone was buying it now. (Around £1,500 per week if my sums are right) but I’m zb at maths but then again I’m not stupid.
Carryfast:
That’s just what happened.So look where it’s got us over 30 years later.A country that’s almost a zb banana republic without any bananas to sell.
Better what we have now than what we had in the 60’s 70’s and 80’s, the winter nights without Electricity, no fuel for the fire to keep warm, no jobs for anyone, no money to buy food, nostalgia is a wondrous thing, isn’t it If you honestly believe we were better off then than we are now, you must be living on a different planet to the rest of us!
There are people who have never worked a day in their lives better off today than my family were in the 60’s while in work.
Carryfast:
But if the miners were’nt trying to save the British mining industry in 1984 why the zb were they out there getting knocked about by a bunch of overpaid coppers.
are you saying the miners weren’t very well paid then■■?
Scargill conned the miners into striking to bring down the government, it was never about saving the mines, closures were inevitable whatever happened, some mines were all but empty and unprofitable, the miners wanted good wages so would have had to accept that the money needed to come from profits, mines that weren’t viable would have reduced wages in the long term, but Scargill didn’t tell them that.
The British copper was doing his job as required by the nation, the fact that Scargill gave them the opportunity to earn some overtime is hardly their fault. Do you think police should have been paid less in the 80’s?
Watch out Jimti when, carryfast’s on a loosing battle he tends to go off topic. So expect all sorts of tangents before arriving back to the original post topic, thus resulting in the uncovering of Unions useless position in today’s world. With a sprinkle of supported anarchy from eras ago.
The Japanese said that the yanks were on a loosing battle even after the yanks had dropped a zb A bomb on the zb’s. It’s just that the blokes who dropped it would never have believed that the yanks would then give the zb’s everything they wanted afterwards.
Carryfast:
Sounds like another (Tory) re writing of history to me.The miners strike of 1973 was about wages the miners strike of 1984 was about saving the industry from closure.Both of those disputes were justified considering the wages that the miners were getting in 1972 versus most other workers including my dad who earnt a lot more as an engineer in a factory but he knew all about their job having a best mate who’d been called up during the war to work down the pits.But the industry has gone now to be replaced by more expensive coal dug by underpaid workers.So you got what you wanted and our balance of payments reflects that.However the NUM made a massive mistake in thinking that they’d get a better deal by forcing an election and getting a Labour government in than by settling with Heath instead.That says more about so called Labour governments than the NUM.
As we are doing “my dad is better than your dad” I also know a lot about the conditions miners were subjected to, my grandfather died down a mine Peter Walker Oh, and the union did nothing to help his widow but the management of the mine paid out some very high compensation. So lets get this straight, to save an industry that has mines that are either played out of at best only losing the said industry $millions every year you go on strike and refuse to let "SCABS " stop the good mines from flooding. Ya right, had nothing to do with saving any industry and everything to do with trying to topple a government the unions would love to have the power to control Government in a free democracy, Scargill was after a communist state.
Carryfast:
So you really think that you’d be better off on the dole now than working in the 1960’s.Says everything about Tory thinking.My dad bought a near new 3 bedroom house in Surrey for £5000 in 1965 and he was earning around £25 per week for 40 hours per week plus overtime and then it got even better than that.That house sold for the same price as this one which would now cost a worker around £350,0000 probably more around 70 x as much What would that £25 per week need to be now to be able to afford that (if) wages had kept pace with 1960’s living standards and how would the dole pay for a zb mortgage on it if someone was buying it now. (Around £1,500 per week if my sums are right) but I’m zb at maths but then again I’m not stupid.
Earning £25 in 1965 your father wasn’t on anything like normal pay, £8 would have been more likely for the average worker, in 1976 I was only getting £28 a week, so hardly a very good comparison, but lets not get confused here, 1980 I bought a TV first of the text TVs 20" £599 my wages £100 per week roughly, so TV cost 6 weeks wages, today TV less than 1 weeks wages, I could do the same for most if not all household goods,
Finally I have never voted for the Torys, but have never voted for or know of anyone else who has voted for a UNION to run the country
And the Russians, like the Chinese, know how to quell pickets
and free speech, and democracy and opposition to the government.
Strange that you give praise to totaliterian states (as Russia then was) and yet choose to live in a democracy.
or did you just post that bit for the sake of an argument
You have misunderstood me, I do not, and never could, support any totalitarian ideals. It was an observation, not praise, and was more a suggestion that Thatcher was considerably more gentle than others in her position.
Carryfast, you are, as normal, talking out of your arse. The Mustangs they were selling to ordinary people in the 60s were being run on fuel which cost next to nothing. Why not help yourself out here by getting your mind out of the 60s and into this brave new world we live in?
Wheelnut hit the nail on the head. The British industries had no pride in their work, and made second rate products while the unions told them they were doing a great job and needed better money and better conditions as a reward. The standards within the industries were so poor that, in fact, they got exactly what they deserved. By praising the unions and the striking workers, and by stating that the strikes of today are responsible, you are being anarchic and unrealistic.
So, by carryfast standards, pretty normal then. Yet you go on to tell us of your Jaguar, and you “I’m alright, Jack” point of view. So you are really a communist capitalist, aren’t you. You must have had Animal Farm (the Orwell version for all the dirty minded among us) read to you… You know, “Four legs good, two legs bad” and “All animals are equal, but some are more equal then others”, because you seem to believe that you know best, despite having ideals that are nearly a century out of date.
Carryfast:
Sounds like another (Tory) re writing of history to me.The miners strike of 1973 was about wages the miners strike of 1984 was about saving the industry from closure.Both of those disputes were justified considering the wages that the miners were getting in 1972 versus most other workers including my dad who earnt a lot more as an engineer in a factory but he knew all about their job having a best mate who’d been called up during the war to work down the pits.But the industry has gone now to be replaced by more expensive coal dug by underpaid workers.So you got what you wanted and our balance of payments reflects that.However the NUM made a massive mistake in thinking that they’d get a better deal by forcing an election and getting a Labour government in than by settling with Heath instead.That says more about so called Labour governments than the NUM.
As we are doing “my dad is better than your dad” I also know a lot about the conditions miners were subjected to, my grandfather died down a mine Peter Walker Oh, and the union did nothing to help his widow but the management of the mine paid out some very high compensation. So lets get this straight, to save an industry that has mines that are either played out of at best only losing the said industry $millions every year you go on strike and refuse to let "SCABS " stop the good mines from flooding. Ya right, had nothing to do with saving any industry and everything to do with trying to topple a government the unions would love to have the power to control Government in a free democracy, Scargill was after a communist state.
Carryfast:
So you really think that you’d be better off on the dole now than working in the 1960’s.Says everything about Tory thinking.My dad bought a near new 3 bedroom house in Surrey for £5000 in 1965 and he was earning around £25 per week for 40 hours per week plus overtime and then it got even better than that.That house sold for the same price as this one which would now cost a worker around £350,0000 probably more around 70 x as much What would that £25 per week need to be now to be able to afford that (if) wages had kept pace with 1960’s living standards and how would the dole pay for a zb mortgage on it if someone was buying it now. (Around £1,500 per week if my sums are right) but I’m zb at maths but then again I’m not stupid.
Earning £25 in 1965 your father wasn’t on anything like normal pay, £8 would have been more likely for the average worker, in 1976 I was only getting £28 a week, so hardly a very good comparison, but lets not get confused here, 1980 I bought a TV first of the text TVs 20" £599 my wages £100 per week roughly, so TV cost 6 weeks wages, today TV less than 1 weeks wages, I could do the same for most if not all household goods,
Finally I have never voted for the Torys, but have never voted for or know of anyone else who has voted for a UNION to run the country
I was only on around £25 per week myself in 1976.But that was because I was on a 17 year old trainee engineer’s wage.But the usual wage was a good £50 per week + at that time so as usual it’s a re writing of history again.Just like your idea that it was the NUM’s idea to flood the pits and seal them up not Thatcher’s.
But yeah right that cheap tele comes at the price of higher taxes and lower wages in the economy in general to pay for the lost income taxes,dole payments,and the distortions in the free labour market caused by cheap foreign competition and you still don’t seem to get it that an economy can’t stay solvent by importing cheap teles and paying for them with money ‘earnt’ as a nation of shopkeepers and hamburger cafe operatives.But there’s not much point in having a cheap tele anyway if the incomes earnt in this economy of yours don’t pay enough to afford the taxes,gas and electric bills,car running costs,and the mortgage let alone the medical costs needed to cover the family when we have to shut the NHS down because there’s no way that surgeons will operate on a sick child for the type of wages that anyone can earn to pay them if they’ve got to compete in the free global market economy.So it’s Taiwanese/Chinese state health care or nothing .Unions running the country instead of this bunch of overpaid hypocrites who’ve sold the country down the river.Why not it can’t be any worse.
Spacemonkeypg:
Can you string a sentence together without using an expletive? and being racially offensive?
Sorry if I’ve upset your modern day pc sensibilities.But as you’ll see I grew up in a non pc world working in a factory during a non pc time and we always called a spade a spade.That’s before the unions got more interested in not offending anyone than keeping living standards high enough for the country to stay solvent though.
Just because you grew up surrounded by bigots and fascists does not excuse common sense and common decency.
We all, i think work in a “blue collar” environment so are not unaccustomed to profanity. But using it in every paragraph just highlights peoples inability to communicate correctly
And the Russians, like the Chinese, know how to quell pickets
and free speech, and democracy and opposition to the government.
Strange that you give praise to totaliterian states (as Russia then was) and yet choose to live in a democracy.
or did you just post that bit for the sake of an argument
You have misunderstood me, I do not, and never could, support any totalitarian ideals. It was an observation, not praise, and was more a suggestion that Thatcher was considerably more gentle than others in her position.
Carryfast, you are, as normal, talking out of your arse. The Mustangs they were selling to ordinary people in the 60s were being run on fuel which cost next to nothing. Why not help yourself out here by getting your mind out of the 60s and into this brave new world we live in?
Wheelnut hit the nail on the head. The British industries had no pride in their work, and made second rate products while the unions told them they were doing a great job and needed better money and better conditions as a reward. The standards within the industries were so poor that, in fact, they got exactly what they deserved. By praising the unions and the striking workers, and by stating that the strikes of today are responsible, you are being anarchic and unrealistic.
So, by carryfast standards, pretty normal then. Yet you go on to tell us of your Jaguar, and you “I’m alright, Jack” point of view. So you are really a communist capitalist, aren’t you. You must have had Animal Farm (the Orwell version for all the dirty minded among us) read to you… You know, “Four legs good, two legs bad” and “All animals are equal, but some are more equal then others”, because you seem to believe that you know best, despite having ideals that are nearly a century out of date.
So what would you prefer your pc world,of expensive overtaxed fuel and mickey mouse cars,which is all that our underpaid workers can afford in this brave new world,where the Chinese do all the work,unless we can do it cheaper,or mine which means going back to the future of driving decent cars in a world in which living costs and taxes match earnings.
Or do we just settle for more of the same as what we’ve got of ever increasing prices and stagnant wages in which yearly downsizing of the car and the house is the only way forward until we all end up as a nation of ■■■■■■ living in a caravan running our small oriental diesel on red diesel or using a battery powered electric toy to get to our job at the hamburger shop.Meanwhile of course our commie loving government officials and bankers drive the few real cars left.Yeah Orwell was right that’s communism.
OK, I tried to be nice- used your proper username and everything. You are talking ■■■■■■■■ again.
Nobody said it was the NUMs idea to flood the pits, but I said that they knew it would happen and didn’t care because they knew the pits were finished without massive subsidies. So read the thread properly, or get someone who can read to read it to you. The NUM tried their hardest to bring down a government which had won its second huge victory at the polls. It wasn’t going to happen, but Scargill was such a fanatic that he believed it would.
The unions did a perfectly good job of selling out. They knew they were doomed, but they continued pushing. They were quite happy to assist in the destruction.
And regarding goods that are affordable. Are you saying, then, that we, as working people, do not deserve to be able to buy a TV? Are you that self absorbed?
Continuing from your more recent post, and just to see if you really are this thick, has it not occurred to you that the whole world has colour TVs now, and the whole world is trying to save fuel, is environmentally aware, is in the ■■■■… all except for you?
My God, you are a sociopath, aren’t you? You don’t care about anything except you.
Spacemonkeypg:
Just because you grew up surrounded by bigots and fascists does not excuse common sense and common decency.
We all, i think work in a “blue collar” environment so are not unaccustomed to profanity. But using it in every paragraph just highlights peoples inability to communicate correctly
It all depends on your definition of bigots and fascists.That actually is what those miners were rightly calling the coppers and the government at the time.But how is it that many of those bigots and fascists,who you say that I grew up with,spent a good few years fighting with the bigots and fascists from Germany in WW2.Unless you’re actually trying to say that they were in fact their allies and they were all bigots and fascists together,but just felt like having a war as something to do for 6 years. .
bobthedog:
OK, I tried to be nice- used your proper username and everything. You are talking ■■■■■■■■ again.
Nobody said it was the NUMs idea to flood the pits, but I said that they knew it would happen and didn’t care because they knew the pits were finished without massive subsidies. So read the thread properly, or get someone who can read to read it to you. The NUM tried their hardest to bring down a government which had won its second huge victory at the polls. It wasn’t going to happen, but Scargill was such a fanatic that he believed it would.
The unions did a perfectly good job of selling out. They knew they were doomed, but they continued pushing. They were quite happy to assist in the destruction.
And regarding goods that are affordable. Are you saying, then, that we, as working people, do not deserve to be able to buy a TV? Are you that self absorbed?
Continuing from your more recent post, and just to see if you really are this thick, has it not occurred to you that the whole world has colour TVs now, and the whole world is trying to save fuel, is environmentally aware, is in the [zb]… all except for you?
My God, you are a sociopath, aren’t you? You don’t care about anything except you.
Not me the nation as a whole.It’s called living in a self preservation world by putting the national interest first.But never thought that you were really an environmentalist in the context of being against us running a few fast cars instead of giving all of our wealth to the Chinese so that they can run smaller cheaper ones but millions more of em.Although being a bunch of commies the govnors there will make sure that theirs will be a big V8 or V12 Merc.
Carryfast:
Not me the nation as a whole.It’s called living in a self preservation world by putting the national interest first.But never thought that you were really an environmentalist in the context of being against us running a few fast cars instead of giving all of our wealth to the Chinese so that they can run smaller cheaper ones but millions more of em.Although being a bunch of commies the govnors there will make sure that theirs will be a big V8 or V12 Merc.
How are you putting the national interest first? You are saying that the rest of the country do not deserve nice things because the unions got beaten to death through stupidity and greed, and that is the reason we now buy from abroad… Yet, long before the miners strike, or the auto builders strikes, most of the goods we bought, such as home electronics, were made in Hong Kong and Japan. Are you going to tell me you never bought a colour TV made in Japan or, heaven forbid, China?
Are you going to sit there and say that you only buy brit goods, because I would say that you are being dishonest. The computer you are trying to wage your cyber war on was made in China, as were all the parts of your computer. If the little bloke down the road from you made it, and it is akin to a Cray, it was made with components that came from China… Yet you have the balls to sit there and say you put the national interest first?
And you keep spouting that you have a Jag, and you defend the unions, and you slag off the rest of us for wanting a flatscreen telly… That makes you a napoleon… the most equal among the pigs in the book…
You always post ■■■■■■■■, but you are really excelling this time…
how the zb can that car be considered ‘excessive’ in view of the fact that they were selling them to ordinary working class factory workers in 1965 faster than we were selling poxy Cortinas and Minis here.
