Carryfast:
Depends on which version of history you want to believe.As I remember it the economy was doing a lot better under a system in which we weren’t a net importer of manufactured goods and coal and gas and with strong unions keeping wages ahead of prices.Than we’ve got now since Maggie got what she wanted.
I remember it well , the power cuts ,the rubbish on the streets ,the constant car strikes ,the dead unburied ,the crap quality of British made goods(yeah i had a BL car) ,yep those where the days alright .
As far as I know undertakers or private waste disposal companies won’t do anything for less than the price they quote either which is what Callaghan expected those council workers to do by accepting a pay cut.Although I was referring to the years leading up to the ( justified ) NUM pay demand which Heath then refused which caused the power cuts.While Jag,Rover or Triumph v an overpriced German or micky mouse Jap import.By the way I’ve still got one of those BL built cars.It would take something like an E39 M5 to catch it ‘if’ you can find someone to disable it’s speed limiter.
Carryfast:
Depends on which version of history you want to believe.As I remember it the economy was doing a lot better under a system in which we weren’t a net importer of manufactured goods and coal and gas and with strong unions keeping wages ahead of prices.Than we’ve got now since Maggie got what she wanted.
I remember it well , the power cuts ,the rubbish on the streets ,the constant car strikes ,the dead unburied ,the crap quality of British made goods(yeah i had a BL car) ,yep those where the days alright .
As far as I know undertakers or private waste disposal companies won’t do anything for less than the price they quote either which is what Callaghan expected those council workers to do by accepting a pay cut.Although I was referring to the years leading up to the ( justified ) NUM pay demand which Heath then refused which caused the power cuts.While Jag,Rover or Triumph v an overpriced German or micky mouse Jap import.By the way I’ve still got one of those BL built cars.It would take something like an E39 M5 to catch it ‘if’ you can find someone to disable it’s speed limiter.
Kudos if you got a BL car to perform as it should or better
The problem was that in the 70’s the country was bankrupt ,having to go to the imf to fund increasingly high pay demands was not good and somewhere a stand had to be made .Pouring money into unprofitable pits,carplants and shipyards had to stop ,As a country we where far behind the rest of the developed world in terms of production and exports .
The country is nearly bankrupt again but this time most people think that if they strike their boss will find a way to get rid of them - with someone right behind them ready to fill their shoes without a thought. Rightly or wrongly that seems to be the case.
Back in the day there was the support of a large unionised workforce. Nowadays few can afford union membership and those that can seem to have it only for the legal protection.
These days the unions are in cahoots with the government both Labour and Tory/Lib Dem. The Labour party nowadays is infested with the rich - Harriet Harman, the Millibands? They don’t speak for the working man. You may hate Maggie (I don’t have any feelings either way) but she never pretended to be someone she wasn’t - her dad was a shop keeper wasn’t he?
PS the unionised car workers were the makers of their own undoing ultimately. Constant strikes and demands and producing a whole line of [zb] vehicles does not make for a successful brand.
Carryfast:
Depends on which version of history you want to believe.As I remember it the economy was doing a lot better under a system in which we weren’t a net importer of manufactured goods and coal and gas and with strong unions keeping wages ahead of prices.Than we’ve got now since Maggie got what she wanted.
I remember it well , the power cuts ,the rubbish on the streets ,the constant car strikes ,the dead unburied ,the crap quality of British made goods(yeah i had a BL car) ,yep those where the days alright .
As far as I know undertakers or private waste disposal companies won’t do anything for less than the price they quote either which is what Callaghan expected those council workers to do by accepting a pay cut.Although I was referring to the years leading up to the ( justified ) NUM pay demand which Heath then refused which caused the power cuts.While Jag,Rover or Triumph v an overpriced German or micky mouse Jap import.By the way I’ve still got one of those BL built cars.It would take something like an E39 M5 to catch it ‘if’ you can find someone to disable it’s speed limiter.
Kudos if you got a BL car to perform as it should or better
The problem was that in the 70’s the country was bankrupt ,having to go to the imf to fund increasingly high pay demands was not good and somewhere a stand had to be made .Pouring money into unprofitable pits,carplants and shipyards had to stop ,As a country we where far behind the rest of the developed world in terms of production and exports .
You need to seperate the situation of the economy as it stood before the 1973 oil price increases ( which the government ‘could’ have used North Sea oil to insulate us from) and before we joined the EU compared to after that time running up to the late 1970’s.
I don’t think there were ever any pay demands during the 1970’s which weren’t based on the correct idea of keeping wage levels in line with prices which is the only way that people can buy anything.Production was never an issue being that we were actually net exporters of manufactured goods.As opposed to vice versa after the change in British economic policy from one of a manufacturing based economy to being a banking and service based one.
Everything that has happened to the economy since has shown that your idea is based on a false re writing of history which has been used by those who supported EU membership and Thatcherite economic policies to cover up for their mistakes.
bazza123:
The country is nearly bankrupt again but this time most people think that if they strike their boss will find a way to get rid of them - with someone right behind them ready to fill their shoes without a thought. Rightly or wrongly that seems to be the case.
Back in the day there was the support of a large unionised workforce. Nowadays few can afford union membership and those that can seem to have it only for the legal protection.
These days the unions are in cahoots with the government both Labour and Tory/Lib Dem. The Labour party nowadays is infested with the rich - Harriet Harman, the Millibands? They don’t speak for the working man. You may hate Maggie (I don’t have any feelings either way) but she never pretended to be someone she wasn’t - her dad was a shop keeper wasn’t he?
It’s that shopkeeper mentality,as opposed to understanding how to run an industrialised economy on Fordist principles,that has put the country where it is today.Ironically without industry there is no money to buy stuff in the shops and running a trade deficit just creates debt.
The only thing preventing meltdown right now, is the current benefit system, if it wasnt for that, we would be witnessing serious social unrest. Another reason for the middle classes not doing so well from the benefit system is......Those mardy arsed chinless wonders dont have the cahoonies to do anything…So, for now, peace prevails.
att:
The only thing preventing meltdown right now, is the current benefit system, if it wasnt for that, we would be witnessing serious social unrest. Another reason for the middle classes not doing so well from the benefit system is......Those mardy arsed chinless wonders dont have the cahoonies to do anything…So, for now, peace prevails.
I honestly don’t know what is preventing meltdown ,the current incumbents have not the first idea how to get the country out of the hole we are in ,labour are no better,they have no clear policy or ideas, Clegg is too busy blowing Cameron to be of any use to anyone so you would think that trade unions would be having a field day but they are too busy feathering their own nests to bother with anyone else so at the end of the day all us plebs just keep going to work and paying our mortgage without any idea where we will be in 5 yrs time
Carryfast:
Depends on which version of history you want to believe.As I remember it the economy was doing a lot better under a system in which we weren’t a net importer of manufactured goods and coal and gas and with strong unions keeping wages ahead of prices.Than we’ve got now since Maggie got what she wanted.
I remember it well , the power cuts ,the rubbish on the streets ,the constant car strikes ,the dead unburied ,the crap quality of British made goods(yeah i had a BL car) ,yep those where the days alright .
As far as I know undertakers or private waste disposal companies won’t do anything for less than the price they quote either which is what Callaghan expected those council workers to do by accepting a pay cut.Although I was referring to the years leading up to the ( justified ) NUM pay demand which Heath then refused which caused the power cuts.While Jag,Rover or Triumph v an overpriced German or micky mouse Jap import.By the way I’ve still got one of those BL built cars.It would take something like an E39 M5 to catch it ‘if’ you can find someone to disable it’s speed limiter.
Kudos if you got a BL car to perform as it should or better
The problem was that in the 70’s the country was bankrupt ,having to go to the imf to fund increasingly high pay demands was not good and somewhere a stand had to be made .Pouring money into unprofitable pits,carplants and shipyards had to stop ,As a country we where far behind the rest of the developed world in terms of production and exports .
You need to seperate the situation of the economy as it stood before the 1973 oil price increases ( which the government ‘could’ have used North Sea oil to insulate us from) and before we joined the EU compared to after that time running up to the late 1970’s.
I don’t think there were ever any pay demands during the 1970’s which weren’t based on the correct idea of keeping wage levels in line with prices which is the only way that people can buy anything.Production was never an issue being that we were actually net exporters of manufactured goods.As opposed to vice versa after the change in British economic policy from one of a manufacturing based economy to being a banking and service based one.
Everything that has happened to the economy since has shown that your idea is based on a false re writing of history which has been used by those who supported EU membership and Thatcherite economic policies to cover up for their mistakes.
One thing i don’t support is EU membership ,also the higher wages go the higher prices go ,that is basic economics .Yes i agree that we should have maintained a strong manufacturing base instead of becoming a country of kebab shops and supermarkets .What i don’t want is a socialist nanny state as we had become under the last government
att:
The only thing preventing meltdown right now, is the current benefit system, if it wasnt for that, we would be witnessing serious social unrest. Another reason for the middle classes not doing so well from the benefit system is......Those mardy arsed chinless wonders dont have the cahoonies to do anything…So, for now, peace prevails.
I honestly don’t know what is preventing meltdown ,the current incumbents have not the first idea how to get the country out of the hole we are in ,labour are no better,they have no clear policy or ideas, Clegg is too busy blowing Cameron to be of any use to anyone so you would think that trade unions would be having a field day but they are too busy feathering their own nests to bother with anyone else so at the end of the day all us plebs just keep going to work and paying our mortgage without any idea where we will be in 5 yrs time
‘Meltdown’ is probably being prevented by printing money and the Chinese just waiting until the debt levels owed to them,to pay for stuff which we could have made for ourselves,reach the point where they ask for payment in real estate and other assets.No surprise that the top levels of British society will probably liquidate all their assets and emigrate before that happens.The unions in Britain have been an irrelevance since the election of Thatcher1979.
Effectively the British have allowed themselves to be scammed by a load of bankers and Chinese peasants.
Carryfast:
Depends on which version of history you want to believe.As I remember it the economy was doing a lot better under a system in which we weren’t a net importer of manufactured goods and coal and gas and with strong unions keeping wages ahead of prices.Than we’ve got now since Maggie got what she wanted.
I remember it well , the power cuts ,the rubbish on the streets ,the constant car strikes ,the dead unburied ,the crap quality of British made goods(yeah i had a BL car) ,yep those where the days alright .
As far as I know undertakers or private waste disposal companies won’t do anything for less than the price they quote either which is what Callaghan expected those council workers to do by accepting a pay cut.Although I was referring to the years leading up to the ( justified ) NUM pay demand which Heath then refused which caused the power cuts.While Jag,Rover or Triumph v an overpriced German or micky mouse Jap import.By the way I’ve still got one of those BL built cars.It would take something like an E39 M5 to catch it ‘if’ you can find someone to disable it’s speed limiter.
Kudos if you got a BL car to perform as it should or better
The problem was that in the 70’s the country was bankrupt ,having to go to the imf to fund increasingly high pay demands was not good and somewhere a stand had to be made .Pouring money into unprofitable pits,carplants and shipyards had to stop ,As a country we where far behind the rest of the developed world in terms of production and exports .
You need to seperate the situation of the economy as it stood before the 1973 oil price increases ( which the government ‘could’ have used North Sea oil to insulate us from) and before we joined the EU compared to after that time running up to the late 1970’s.
I don’t think there were ever any pay demands during the 1970’s which weren’t based on the correct idea of keeping wage levels in line with prices which is the only way that people can buy anything.Production was never an issue being that we were actually net exporters of manufactured goods.As opposed to vice versa after the change in British economic policy from one of a manufacturing based economy to being a banking and service based one.
Everything that has happened to the economy since has shown that your idea is based on a false re writing of history which has been used by those who supported EU membership and Thatcherite economic policies to cover up for their mistakes.
One thing i don’t support is EU membership ,also the higher wages go the higher prices go ,that is basic economics .Yes i agree that we should have maintained a strong manufacturing base instead of becoming a country of kebab shops and supermarkets .What i don’t want is a socialist nanny state as we had become under the last government
Socialism doesn’t come much more communist than providing ‘low wage earners’ with state funded housing to subsidise their low wages ( because those low wage earners didn’t have the bottle or unity to fight for better wages ) and then effectively give those ‘low wage earners’ that sate funded housing to then do as they please with like flog off and make a big profit on.Which was a Thatcherite idea if I remember right.
JB:
So its ok to work there as long as there’s not an “official” picket line?
There not in a union so it don’t matter?
Or am I just getting the wrong impression from your post winseer?
If they are not in a union, then it isn’t a picket line in the first place is it - just a bunch of hard-done-bys causing an obstruction.
If you want to make a protest then any group of workers has the option be in, or form a Union. No union - No official picket. No probs driving past the rabble - not that I’ve had chance to do thus as yet.
I believe a firm is legally obliged to recognise a Union should enough members sign up to form it.
Those that believe all this anti-union crap like “It’s illegal to ask for a pay rise, strike, complain, whistle blow, claim, or do anything else that doesn’t involve going down on one knee with tongue extended” have only themselves to blame if they then get walked over by the firm with their “time’s are 'ard” and “racing to the bottom” patter, whilst ordering you to run bent just so they can holiday in St Moritz instead of Avimore this year.
JB:
So its ok to work there as long as there’s not an “official” picket line?
There not in a union so it don’t matter?
Or am I just getting the wrong impression from your post winseer?
If they are not in a union, then it isn’t a picket line in the first place is it - just a bunch of hard-done-bys causing an obstruction.
If you want to make a protest then any group of workers has the option be in, or form a Union. No union - No official picket. No probs driving past the rabble - not that I’ve had chance to do thus as yet.
I believe a firm is legally obliged to recognise a Union should enough members sign up to form it.
Those that believe all this anti-union crap like “It’s illegal to ask for a pay rise, strike, complain, whistle blow, claim, or do anything else that doesn’t involve going down on one knee with tongue extended” have only themselves to blame if they then get walked over by the firm with their “time’s are 'ard” and “racing to the bottom” patter, whilst ordering you to run bent just so they can holiday in St Moritz instead of Avimore this year.
Without the ability of unions to use secondary action in the form of calling sympathy or general action it is effectively illegal to strike at least in a way which is likely to lead to a fast enough successful outcome.
In countries where enslavement of the population was in the process of being “legalised”, the workforce got around it by non-violent actions such as throwing their shoes into the works to prevent industry continuing at the plant. Such shoes such as the dutch “Sabots” gave their name to sabotage of course.
The outlawing of secondry picketing has indeed removed the teeth of Unions everywhere in this country.
All it needs to redress the balance is for those same workers to realise that THEY are supposed to consent to such changes in the law made to protect THEM from the larger entities that would rob them otherwise.
Once one realises the law has been subverted by the powerful, it then becomes obvious to take the next logical step - and disregard that very corrupt law when one’s own life and limb (and livelihood!) are at stake. New England Colonists were once put to by a similar situation, and we all know how THAT ended up!
“We, The people, have all become traitors to our mother country, and have decided to break every law of that old country and make some new ones of our own”.
If Washington had lost, then the entire liberty movement would have gone down in history like the PLO. They didn’t lose, and we now have a tail that wags the dog in the world. This country too might find itself with a population that wants out of Europe, and a government in the pockets of the European paymasters, just as the Tory authorities in the Colonies were loyal to those right here that would serve them advancement before the very people they were supposed to be serving…
Not much is said of the Tory dead in the revolution that followed, because that’s not the gritty bits that people like to remember.
It’s difficult to learn from history that is so “brushed under the carpet”
This is more commonly known as a “breakdown of law & order” of course, and I suggest that the workforce here is becoming more concentrated with those very people who, unlike us Brits, are NOT afraid to get their hands dirty when their lives and livelyhoods are at stake.
It’s only a matter of time before critical mass is reached.
Imagine what would happen even in 2013 if some crooked employer decides to drive off a workforce of say, 100 Kosovans, the Boss apparently smug in having the full force of British Law to protect HIM from THEM. In these days of cut police forces and slow justice for anyone not at the very top, I, for one, wouldn’t be sleeping too well at night if I were that dodgy firm’s boy!
Winseer:
In countries where enslavement of the population was in the process of being “legalised”, the workforce got around it by non-violent actions such as throwing their shoes into the works to prevent industry continuing at the plant. Such shoes such as the dutch “Sabots” gave their name to sabotage of course.
The outlawing of secondry picketing has indeed removed the teeth of Unions everywhere in this country.
All it needs to redress the balance is for those same workers to realise that THEY are supposed to consent to such changes in the law made to protect THEM from the larger entities that would rob them otherwise.
Once one realises the law has been subverted by the powerful, it then becomes obvious to take the next logical step - and disregard that very corrupt law when one’s own life and limb (and livelihood!) are at stake. New England Colonists were once put to by a similar situation, and we all know how THAT ended up!
“We, The people, have all become traitors to our mother country, and have decided to break every law of that old country and make some new ones of our own”.
If Washington had lost, then the entire liberty movement would have gone down in history like the PLO. They didn’t lose, and we now have a tail that wags the dog in the world. This country too might find itself with a population that wants out of Europe, and a government in the pockets of the European paymasters, just as the Tory authorities in the Colonies were loyal to those right here that would serve them advancement before the very people they were supposed to be serving…
Not much is said of the Tory dead in the revolution that followed, because that’s not the gritty bits that people like to remember.
It’s difficult to learn from history that is so “brushed under the carpet”
There’s a difference between secondary ‘action’ compared to secondary picketing and the tories actually took advantage of using the disorder which took place on ‘some’ picket lines to the push through laws outlawing all types of secondary ‘action’.The type of which I’m describing being secondary strike action as opposed to picketing.Usually where such secondary action is solid picketing isn’t then required to any large degree.If union action is taken to it’s logical conclusion every dispute involving the need for strike action would result in a widespread or even general strike if needed.The level of picketing required usually reflects the level of solidarity amongst the union membership.Sadly the history of the British union movement shows that solidarity has often been an issue and the weak link with the obvious implications of that in regards to the picketing issue.All of which resulted in the defeat of the NUM by Thatcher which was obviously going to be the inevitable outcome of that dispute without solid backing by the TUC membership as a whole in regards to secondary action.
As for the history of the US.Ironically there’s nothing that can be learn’t from that considering the fact that their dream of independence,based on a Confederation of Sovereign States,turned into the nightmare of a civil war followed by a Federalist one size fits all government,and a struggle between the working classes and their government which makes ours seem like a minor disagreement.Which ‘eventually’ at least resulted in their government recognising the fact that strong unions and an economic policy based on Fordism would sort most of those issues which led to levels of economic growth there never seen before.That was until Thatcher and Reagan started working together to effectively destroy the economies of both countries by throwing that idea away resulting in those levels of economic growth there never being seen since.
The rest is history resulting in the irony of the US now supporting the idea of Britain being part of a Federal Europe with a service industry and banking based economy in a global free market economy.In which the German government and the Chinese Communist Party have more say concerning the direction of the two nations than their own people do.
