Saving gormless billionaires

franglais · 23 June 2023 10:31

Zac_A:

Franglais:
So.
Is there a debate to be had over whether or not risky leisure activities should have personal insurance attached?
Be it for medical/accident/rescue?

Insurance already exists for the diving community, many/most of whom have “rescue insurance” in terms of top level donations to RNLI, together with regular funding activities. RAF guys just enjoy hunting for floating numpties, as they’re at work and getting paid anyways, and lost divers allow the air crews to log the necessary flying hours their vocation requires.

Does this commercial operation make any such payment to anyone at all? They are taking money from punters, does/should any of that be paid upfront to rescue funds?

zac_a · 23 June 2023 10:58

Lets be clear, all the costs of the rescue are on the US and Canada, so any compensation due is for them to collect. No one cares what we in Blighty think, it’s not “our tax dollars”.

Considering the US basically invented “compensation culture”, I think the people behind OceanGate are in for a lifetime of paying (metaphorically and literally) for what they have allowed to come to pass, and for the way they have actively avoided all reasonable certification procedures.

smh.com.au/world/north-amer … 5digy.html

franglais · 23 June 2023 11:15

Zac_A:
Lets be clear, all the costs of the rescue are on the US and Canada, so any compensation due is for them to collect. No one cares what we in Blighty think, it’s not “our tax dollars”.

Considering the US basically invented “compensation culture”, I think the people behind OceanGate are in for a lifetime of paying (metaphorically and literally) for what they have allowed to come to pass, and for the way they have actively avoided all reasonable certification procedures.

smh.com.au/world/north-amer … 5digy.html

The incident is in International waters isnt it? The nearest rescuers are USA but, Canadian, UK, French, are all helping. Shouldnt there be some international agreements about costs created by private companies? Should there be some oversight of companies turning profit for their own ends?
The next incident could be nearer us. Too late to start negotiations about rules then!

switchlogic · 23 June 2023 12:07

Franglais:

Zac_A:
Lets be clear, all the costs of the rescue are on the US and Canada, so any compensation due is for them to collect. No one cares what we in Blighty think, it’s not “our tax dollars”.

Considering the US basically invented “compensation culture”, I think the people behind OceanGate are in for a lifetime of paying (metaphorically and literally) for what they have allowed to come to pass, and for the way they have actively avoided all reasonable certification procedures.

smh.com.au/world/north-amer … 5digy.html

The incident is in International waters isnt it? The nearest rescuers are USA but, Canadian, UK, French, are all helping. Shouldnt there be some international agreements about costs created by private companies? Should there be some oversight of companies turning profit for their own ends?
The next incident could be nearer us. Too late to start negotiations about rules then!

That would be a much bigger endeavour than I think you realise as in that case anyone using the seas for profit would fall under it, and an insane amount of business relies on the seas and oceans. Not to mention massively complicated with all the countries as well as the many companies concerned.

In the grand scheme of things this will have hardly broken the bank, it was such a one off rare occurrence and despite what one on this thread thinks it’s not all wasted money as it’s been great from a training point of view.

jeffa · 23 June 2023 12:10

In what way was it “good training”? Most of the active time was spent riding out to the Titanic - then it was just a matter of picking up debris. In 3 or 4 days it’s cost “many millions”. That’s not a good way of spending your budget - that’s a liability.

switchlogic · 23 June 2023 12:41

Already answered previously-

switchlogic:

JeffA:
How often will the coastguard be called on to rescue a tiny sub from the Titanic wreck? Its the most useless “training” in the world because it will probably never be done ever again - not to mention the cost of it will mean the money they could have spent on real training has gone.

And they are more than likely dead anyway so its useless as a rescue - its just picking up an object from the ocean floor. No need for “training” for that. Y’follow?

So you think they only train for very specific scenarios and don’t use knowledge gained across all their search and rescue activities? ‘Sorry captain, we can’t use that information, that’s from the tiny submarine at bottom of ocean file’

Currently we have jets dancing around West Wales. Seems pointless, there’s hardly going to be a war in Wales. Well for foreseeable.

JeffA:
:dont just pull something out of your bottom and hope I let you get away with it.

Let me get away with it? That’s some ego! None of us Matter in grand scheme of things, we’re just idiots yelling into the void. I couldn’t care less what you do or don’t let me get away with

Good day to you

franglais · 23 June 2023 12:58

switchlogic:

Franglais:

Zac_A:
Lets be clear, all the costs of the rescue are on the US and Canada, so any compensation due is for them to collect. No one cares what we in Blighty think, it’s not “our tax dollars”.

Considering the US basically invented “compensation culture”, I think the people behind OceanGate are in for a lifetime of paying (metaphorically and literally) for what they have allowed to come to pass, and for the way they have actively avoided all reasonable certification procedures.

smh.com.au/world/north-amer … 5digy.html

The incident is in International waters isnt it? The nearest rescuers are USA but, Canadian, UK, French, are all helping. Shouldnt there be some international agreements about costs created by private companies? Should there be some oversight of companies turning profit for their own ends?
The next incident could be nearer us. Too late to start negotiations about rules then!

That would be a much bigger endeavour than I think you realise as in that case anyone using the seas for profit would fall under it, and an insane amount of business relies on the seas and oceans. Not to mention massively complicated with all the countries as well as the many companies concerned.

In the grand scheme of things this will have hardly broken the bank, it was such a one off rare occurrence and despite what one on this thread thinks it’s not all wasted money as it’s been great from a training point of view.

One cost of one rescue is not the key to world prosperity, but why should private companies make profit with possibly substandard kit? Why should taxpayers of any country bail out reckless (possibly) tourism?
Rescuing military or scientific teams that are there for our common good is one thing. Rescuing private jollies that rely on public funds to support what security they leave out is another. So long as public money supports private enterprise, how is that just?

And @ Zac_A the terms used do seem important to me.
As might be clear from above, spending to save a worthwhile enterprise is one thing. To save tourists on a risky trip is another.
NB Im not saying stop it all. Tourism and diving is part of some countries legitimate trades. But there does need to be a conversation here. This doesnt seem to be part of a large business benefiting the local population who are also the ones mounting any rescues. Looks like these werent workers, but were tourists. Correct me if wrong.

switchlogic · 23 June 2023 13:04

Franglais:
But there does need to be a conversation here.

I disagree. When was last time something like this happened? Plenty vastly more important conversations need to happen, this isn’t one

jeffa · 23 June 2023 13:16

switchlogic:
Already answered previously-

switchlogic:

JeffA:
How often will the coastguard be called on to rescue a tiny sub from the Titanic wreck? Its the most useless “training” in the world because it will probably never be done ever again - not to mention the cost of it will mean the money they could have spent on real training has gone.

And they are more than likely dead anyway so its useless as a rescue - its just picking up an object from the ocean floor. No need for “training” for that. Y’follow?

So you think they only train for very specific scenarios and don’t use knowledge gained across all their search and rescue activities? ‘Sorry captain, we can’t use that information, that’s from the tiny submarine at bottom of ocean file’

Currently we have jets dancing around West Wales. Seems pointless, there’s hardly going to be a war in Wales. Well for foreseeable.

JeffA:
:dont just pull something out of your bottom and hope I let you get away with it.

Let me get away with it? That’s some ego! None of us Matter in grand scheme of things, we’re just idiots yelling into the void. I couldn’t care less what you do or don’t let me get away with

Good day to you

So you think spending many millions in the space of 3 or 4 days is worth it for…the training? That’s awfully expensive training isn’t it. You don’t think they’ve worked out a way of training to do this somewhere cheaper?

And if it’s such a tricky case how did they know what to do straightaway? (Might it be cos they can do the training they need near their base?)

franglais · 23 June 2023 13:58

switchlogic:

Franglais:
But there does need to be a conversation here.

I disagree. When was last time something like this happened? Plenty vastly more important conversations need to happen, this isn’t one

It is the very job of Govs to have difficult conversations, and it is free for any of us individuals to discuss whatever we want to.

There isnt enough (IMHO) money going into routine medicine, but however much goes in it is still limited. NICE has the unenviable job of deciding whether or not the NHS will/wont supply drugs or procedures to patients with much account taken of cost. They literally decide whether or not someone will live or die sooner or later based on cash.
If rescues take up more funds in the future then less money will be available in other parts of the economy.
Difficult to say that sending 2 planes over the Atlantic will result in 20 hip operations being postponed, but that is the truth of it.

Medicine is provided according to a budget. Shouldn`t rescue be the same?
Should private enterprise leech off of the state?

franglais · 23 June 2023 13:58

switchlogic:

Franglais:
But there does need to be a conversation here.

I disagree. When was last time something like this happened? Plenty vastly more important conversations need to happen, this isn’t one

It is the very job of Govs to have difficult conversations, and it is free for any of us individuals to discuss whatever we want to.

There isnt enough (IMHO) money going into routine medicine, but however much goes in it is still limited. NICE has the unenviable job of deciding whether or not the NHS will/wont supply drugs or procedures to patients with much account taken of cost. They literally decide whether or not someone will live or die sooner or later based on cash.
If rescues take up more funds in the future then less money will be available in other parts of the economy.
Difficult to say that sending 2 planes over the Atlantic will result in 20 hip operations being postponed, but that is the truth of it.

Medicine is provided according to a budget. Shouldn`t rescue be the same?
Should private enterprise leech off of the state?

switchlogic · 23 June 2023 14:11

I didn’t call them difficult. Just pointless.

switchlogic · 23 June 2023 14:13

JeffA:
So you think spending many millions in the space of 3 or 4 days is worth it for…the training?

Except I didn’t actually say that….

franglais · 23 June 2023 14:37

switchlogic:
I didn’t call them difficult. Just pointless.

Ill call them difficult, and interesting. IMHO conversation is often an end in itself, as well as a means to an end isnt it?

Surely you aren`t about to abstain from all discussion on religion? I do join with them sometimes but they seem pretty pointless to me. Others clearly disagree.

zac_a · 23 June 2023 16:06

Franglais:
And @ Zac_A the terms used do seem important to me.

Potaytoes - potahtos, tomaytoes - tomatoes
One man’s meat is another man’s poison
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter
or if you want something more highbrow:
O be some other name.
What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;

Fact: You’re at sea, you’re in trouble, you deserve assistance. End of story, bank balance is irrelevant. Rich person needs rescuing, save him, then send him the bill, if that is in any way appropriate (that could be open to some debate, I don’t think life saving rescue should have a price tag)

franglais · 23 June 2023 16:19

Zac_A:

Franglais:
And @ Zac_A the terms used do seem important to me.

Potaytoes - potahtos, tomaytoes - tomatoes
One man’s meat is another man’s poison
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter
or if you want something more highbrow:
O be some other name.
What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;

Fact: You’re at sea, you’re in trouble, you deserve assistance. End of story, bank balance is irrelevant. Rich person needs rescuing, save him, then send him the bill, if that is in any way appropriate (that could be open to some debate, I don’t think life saving rescue should have a price tag)

Bank Balance is irrelevant at the point when you need saving. Agreed.

Shouldnt tourist operators have insurance of some kind to reimburse the costs of such? And shouldnt that be compulsory?
If you run a dodgy shoe-string operation then you pay a bigger premium and so hopefully get to rethink your operation.

Coastal divers etc who are part of a country`s tourism businesses can expect the country to tax businesses accordingly and so provide finance for a service.

Professional diving companies have a duty of care to their employees. They can`t reduce risk to zero, but can and should provide support in house for expected hazards.

switchlogic · 23 June 2023 16:59

Franglais:

switchlogic:
I didn’t call them difficult. Just pointless.

Ill call them difficult, and interesting. IMHO conversation is often an end in itself, as well as a means to an end isnt it?

Surely you aren`t about to abstain from all discussion on religion? I do join with them sometimes but they seem pretty pointless to me. Others clearly disagree.

I rarely bother getting involved in conversation about religion as they’re …….yup you guessed it, pointless

jeffa · 23 June 2023 18:00

Zac_A:

Franglais:
And @ Zac_A the terms used do seem important to me.

Potaytoes - potahtos, tomaytoes - tomatoes
One man’s meat is another man’s poison
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter
or if you want something more highbrow:
O be some other name.
What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;

Fact: You’re at sea, you’re in trouble, you deserve assistance. End of story, bank balance is irrelevant. Rich person needs rescuing, save him, then send him the bill, if that is in any way appropriate (that could be open to some debate, I don’t think life saving rescue should have a price tag)

When youre doing something purely selfish and expecting people to put themselves in danger for you for free? When youre a billionaire? You cant see any moral problem with that?

You just happily walk off after costing everyone ten million cos you wanted a selfie with the titanic in the background?

harry_monk · 23 June 2023 18:29

JeffA:
When youre doing something purely selfish and expecting people to put themselves in danger for you for free? When youre a billionaire? You cant see any moral problem with that?

You just happily walk off after costing everyone ten million cos you wanted a selfie with the titanic in the background?

When you are in distress at sea then no charge is made for assistance regardless of your financial position or the reason for putting yourself in that position.

“Iain Hughes, from Dudley, started the solo swim with a support boat on Tuesday from Dover before disappearing. Mr Hughes, 42, remains missing despite a search involving military helicopters and navy and police boats”

.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b … m-65982637

Mr Hughes is a firefighter based at Wednesbury Fire Station.

I’m far from being wealthy myself, I don’t even own a house. But what I also don’t have is a heart filled with envy and so in many ways I’m a lot wealthier than you.

winseer · 23 June 2023 18:48

The modern leftist ideology has clearly replaced religion

Listen to them:

You cannot sell them on an alternative argument
They expect you to give up your beliefs and principals, and come across to their way of thinking.

The simple question I ask lefties I know is “What do you think you’ll get if you vote Labour, and then Labour win a majority at the next election?”

You’ll get all sorts of answers here, but none of them starts with “I think I will get…”

More than likely, I’ll hear something like “Well, we’d be a fairer society”. Would we?
“We need to stop the Tories from dividing us even more!” Were we divided before you decided to vote against the Tories - at age 18?

Let’s try that question on here:

Questions from me to you all, regardless of your politics:

“I’ve never voted Labour in my life. Convince me to vote Labour at the next election - without the menace of Violence.”

“I’ve been manipulated into voting Tory to preserve the Brexit. Now that’s clearly not been done properly, convince me to vote against the Tories at the next election BY voting Labour”.

"You believe the Tories have lied and Lied. So do the Labour politicians.
At very best they go all quiet when asked awkward questions with regards to their intent upon former Tory voters. Convince me that you will not be using me as a “useful idiot” IF you could convince me to help get Labour over the line at the next election."

and finally - the big one:

“What do I get if I vote Labour at the next election?”

The best person in the world to solve all your own problems - is YOU.
If you neglect YOU in the grand equation of Humanity - then who’s to blame if you then get left behind?

Sorry bud, you voted for us, but we decided to help people in a faraway country, raise your taxes to pay for it, and not increase public spending here to make life better for peoples of all nations, creeds, and colours here."

In a nutshell, it is the FOREIGN POLICY of ALL mainstream parties - that divide us the most of all.
NOTHING to do with “Relgion”.
NOTHING to do with “Nationalism”
NOTHING to do with “Ideology” even.

“Vote for us, and we’ll help someone else far away that is not only ‘Not you’, but no on you know, no one you ever knew, and likely someone who until recently has been making life for us a misery on the international stage on top.”

I want Labour to become a party of “looking after British people IN britain, performing British lines of work, paying British taxes, and benefiting from the British way of life.”

I’m not against immigration - just stop the criminals!
I’m not against the non-religious - just stop persecuting and neglecting mine.
I’m not against Lefties - just stop treating them better than taxpayers get treated!
I’m not against “minority groups” - just stop treating them better than the majority get treated!

I’m not against “Green Living” - just don’t ram it down my throat if I choose NOT to believe it.

If you choose to serve “unpopular minorities” rather than my notion of the “Taxpayer must always be Supreme” - then guess what?
You won’t be thanked BY those whom you help, as they will take it for granted, more often than not.

Help a Taxpayer, and ONLY a taxpayer though? - Everyone strangely then aspires to get a work ethic, get a job, no matter how menial - in exchange for a much-improved standard of living that comes from society itself - now caring rather more for each other, than for some “mythical” far-away needy person you’ll never met, and indeed might not actually exist!

Get off the Auturism Myth - would be my best advice.
If you’re not religious, there’s no need to do this perceived “Do-Gooder” lifestyle all the time, - is there?
If you’re loaded, then I’m sure there’s local issues you could use your vast wealth to help with, rather than send it to some money-laundering outfit who then pretends to spend a small percentage of it digging a well in Africa, fighting a foreign war on the wrong side, or savings the lives of criminals trying to do a criminal thing - far away, out-of-sight, and no one ever askes what those involved in “International Charities” actually get to spend their “Private earnings” on - do they?

Keir Starmer is fast running out of time to convince anyone that he will right this country’s wrongs, let alone me.

NO one in parliament is making “Reduce the foreign aid budget to zero” as a policy.
NO one in parliament is making “NHS free for all, including pre-existing conditions” - a policy.
Right now, if you’re having Oncology treatment - the “help” has already been reduced since the lockdown. If you’re a smoker, obese, got backache, disabled, etc? - You’re treated as a second class citizen, weather or not you have a job.
NO one in parliament is making a big show of “upholding relgious faith” - but are quite happy to push the “Secular Myth” where being a defender of “Faiths” - actually makes you a defender of NO faith.

NO one wants to change this social order where a person with a poor credit rating - is treated worse than a person with a poor criminal record! Why not? Millions of people will have their houses re-possessed over the next year.

Your credit rating means you will NEVER OWN YOUR OWN HOUSE AGAIN!. Cheers then.

A prisoner being released? - All kinds of help with council waiting lists, subsidised rents, sheltered accommodation, and the like…
For the re-possessed? - four-figure per month rents, for the rest of your natual life. Work until you drop. You cannot EVER afford to “Retire” now.

Cheers, then.

You advance according to whom you know - rather than how much money you have, or “What can you do?”

If you want to destroy the Deep State, then first you have to boycott all those who prop it up.
That’s NOT “Conservative Voters”. I’m talking about the elite 1% propping up each other, to keep the 99% downtrodden with the help of around 40% of those 99% being “useful idiots” in order to achieve that: “Opposition Voters” you might call this group.

20 years ago, I was one of these “Opposition Voters”…
“Not My Prime Minister” Blair was ruling the roost. I wasn’t acting all the time “How to get rid of him, and re-instate the Tories”… I was thinking “How can I get on, and find prosperity under Labour rule?” My best years were already behind me at that point sadly, although I didn’t realize that at the time. I remain optimistic, and continue to be so - that, perhaps on this side of my active life - my best days might still yet to be coming…