Franglais:
Sympathy to the individuals in this case.
But, a lot of questions for the general case.
Are these privately owned vessels certified by anyone?
Commercial and private aircraft are. Ships are. Are subs and rockets?
Are the designs certified by independent bodies?
If these are money making ventures for the operators, are they paying for the support they get from tax payers?
Should tax payers really send expensive aid for those who may be taking reckless trips for no good reason? (I`ll repeat, general case not necessarily this trip)
If someone wants to finance their hobby by selling tickets on a home-made rocket ship to the moon, should Govs (us) subsidise the rescue safety net they themselves don`t provide?
Should insurance that pays for rescue be compulsory? Or should every tax payer (rich and poor) pay for the rescue of the few rich enough to pay for a ticket for an exotic jolly?
No one wants to leave an individual to die, but we do that all the time because medical intervention is too expensive. People die prematurely in the UK because the NHS is underfunded.
Should taxes go to headline rescues for a few? or be spread out to make for longer lives for thousands suffering mental health, or more mundane problems who are pretty much ignored as there are so many of them and so are commonplace.
You know what Frangers…
Believe iit or not, I was honestly just about to congratulate you on that post…Until as usual you could not resist the obligatory ‘Party Political Broadcast at every opportunity’’ in your final paragraph.
Hardly appropriate I would say considering the subject matter, but there ago.
In a similar vein I made a joke earlier, but at that time they were presumed to be still alive…just saying before you jump,.and no Pearls or smelling salts either…think that’s every avenue covered
robroy:
You know what Frangers…
Believe iit or not, I was honestly just about to congratulate you on that post…Until as usual you could not resist the obligatory ‘Party Political Broadcast at every opportunity’’ in your final paragraph.
Hardly appropriate I would say considering the subject matter, but there ago
People die every day because of political choices, so, why is today any different?
Millions spent to try to save 5 who were probably already dead, but in a high profile event? vs
Many more dying because of underfunding of breadnbutter health services?
robroy:
You know what Frangers…
Believe iit or not, I was honestly just about to congratulate you on that post…Until as usual you could not resist the obligatory ‘Party Political Broadcast at every opportunity’’ in your final paragraph.
Hardly appropriate I would say considering the subject matter, but there ago
People die every day because of political choices, so, why is today any different?
Millions spent to try to save 5 who were probably already dead, but in a high profile event? vs
Many more dying because of underfunding of breadnbutter health services?
I get all that, but considering the tragedy you could have left out the obvious reference to party politics, which you appear to ‘‘have to get in at every opportunity’’ ,.Boris has gone now,.so has the ‘C’ word (not that one) are you getting withdrawl symptoms? …
Look.we get it you think the Tories are crap, you wish for a Labour govt, but this is hardly the type of thread to use as (another) political vehicle.
Let’s just keep it on thread and respectful,.and not to voice an agenda that was my point
robroy:
You know what Frangers…
Believe iit or not, I was honestly just about to congratulate you on that post…Until as usual you could not resist the obligatory ‘Party Political Broadcast at every opportunity’’ in your final paragraph.
Hardly appropriate I would say considering the subject matter, but there ago
People die every day because of political choices, so, why is today any different?
Millions spent to try to save 5 who were probably already dead, but in a high profile event? vs
Many more dying because of underfunding of breadnbutter health services?
I get all that, but considering the tragedy you could have left out the obvious reference to party politics, which you appear to ‘‘have to get in at every opportunity’’ ,.Boris has gone now,.so has the ‘C’ word (not that one) are you getting withdrawl symptoms? …
Look.we get it you think the Tories are crap, you wish for a Labour govt, but this is hardly the type of thread to use as (another) political vehicle.
Let’s just keep it on thread and respectful,.and not to voice an agenda that was my point
Bad taste jokes?
10 Mar 2023, 19:10
Franglais wrote:
the Home Office should order border force or navy come to that to sink those inflatable boats as soon as they hit British waters to stop illegal immigrants crossing to our shores, a few deaths mid channel may deter them"
Robroy wrote
Now you’re talking. …post of the year.
(Sieg Heil btw )
robroy:
You know what Frangers…
Believe iit or not, I was honestly just about to congratulate you on that post…Until as usual you could not resist the obligatory ‘Party Political Broadcast at every opportunity’’ in your final paragraph.
Hardly appropriate I would say considering the subject matter, but there ago
People die every day because of political choices, so, why is today any different?
Millions spent to try to save 5 who were probably already dead, but in a high profile event? vs
Many more dying because of underfunding of breadnbutter health services?
I get all that, but considering the tragedy you could have left out the obvious reference to party politics, which you appear to ‘‘have to get in at every opportunity’’ ,.Boris has gone now,.so has the ‘C’ word (not that one) are you getting withdrawl symptoms? …
Look.we get it you think the Tories are crap, you wish for a Labour govt, but this is hardly the type of thread to use as (another) political vehicle.
Let’s just keep it on thread and respectful,.and not to voice an agenda that was my point
Bad taste jokes?
10 Mar 2023, 19:10
Franglais wrote:
the Home Office should order border force or navy come to that to sink those inflatable boats as soon as they hit British waters to stop illegal immigrants crossing to our shores, a few deaths mid channel may deter them"
Robroy wrote
Now you’re talking. …post of the year.
(Sieg Heil btw )
Oh ffs …he’s digging and researching my past posts again, to prove a point…he just loves to be right
9k whatever Suffice to say mate just put the ■■■■ shoe horn away.
Anyhoo…aint seen the news,.what caused it to implode given that it was doing what it was designed to do,.and it had done the same voyage in 5he past numerous times.
Are they planning to try and find bodies, or is there nothing to find.
robroy:
Oh ffs …he’s digging and researching my past posts again, to prove a point…he just loves to be right
9k whatever Suffice to say mate just put the [zb] shoe horn away.
Anyhoo…aint seen the news,.what caused it to implode given that it was doing what it was designed to do,.and it had done the same voyage in 5he past numerous times.
Are they planning to try and find bodies, or is there nothing to find.
I want to be right? What a particularly stupid comment:Of course I do. Id rather be right than be wrong. Bit it isnt about me being right is it?
You don`t your past posts being used because it shows you are hypocrite, who is quick to criticise others, and tries to manage the moral tone, but is no better than anyone else.
It isnt a party political debate, I dont know where any party stands on this issue. It is a moral debate.
Funds are limited and taxes should be paid for what? A few high profile rescues or boring everyday care?
The vessel was designed by whom?
I don`t think it was certified by any independent body. Self certification by builders owners etc has a history of failure.
Repeated descents will obviously give risk of fatigue failures. Commercial operations might take a different a different risk strategy if they had to pay into a fund for rescue facilities. If they chose to operate more risky vessels they pay in more.
We pay more insurance for a sports car than a shopping trolley, and that seems just. Why not here?
robroy:
All their families can hope for is that it was a quick death on the first day,.rather than a slow one over a number of days ending in a catastrophic implosion.
RIP to all involved.
Seems like it happened at the same time comms were lost. Lots of stories from guys who refused to go on it cos it had never been tested. Amazing you would pay 250,000 to sit in a tincan.
It has been said that once the vessel “folded” - it would have all been over pretty much instantaneously…
James Cameron, a keen bathyvessel enthusiast himself - said that the Hubris over calling the vessel “Titan” - tempted the same fate as author William Thomas Stead who wrote a novel about a ship called “Titan” that “struck an iceberg, and sunk at the cost of many lives” - only for him to end up perishing as one of the more than 1500 people that perished on the Titanic in 1912.
A seperate book called “The Wreck of the TItan” was also rather prophetic…
Cameron’s film “The Abyss” has this scene in it where Navy Seal Lt Coffey loses power to his vessel, drops off the continental shelf, and “folds” from the huge pressure gain as he quickly drops below the deepest depth the vessel can take, pressure-wise.
If I were to put my conspiracy hat on this, I’d ask the question “How come so many super-rich people - are coming to grief from freak accidents of late?” Is the Antichrist about?
No one should gloat over the deaths of others - not ever.
robroy:
Oh ffs …he’s digging and researching my past posts again, to prove a point…he just loves to be right
9k whatever Suffice to say mate just put the [zb] shoe horn away.
Anyhoo…aint seen the news,.what caused it to implode given that it was doing what it was designed to do,.and it had done the same voyage in 5he past numerous times.
Are they planning to try and find bodies, or is there nothing to find.
I want to be right? What a particularly stupid comment:Of course I do. Id rather be right than be wrong. Bit it isnt about me being right is it?
You don`t your past posts being used because it shows you are hypocrite, who is quick to criticise others, and tries to manage the moral tone, but is no better than anyone else.
It isnt a party political debate, I dont know where any party stands on this issue. It is a moral debate.
Funds are limited and taxes should be paid for what? A few high profile rescues or boring everyday care?
The vessel was designed by whom?
I don`t think it was certified by any independent body. Self certification by builders owners etc has a history of failure.
Repeated descents will obviously give risk of fatigue failures. Commercial operations might take a different a different risk strategy if they had to pay into a fund for rescue facilities. If they chose to operate more risky vessels they pay in more.
We pay more insurance for a sports car than a shopping trolley, and that seems just. Why not here?
Ffs…your first point…
Tired of your pettiness…as far as I recall that was in a context of somebody implying nazism to those who can see the real reason for ‘refugees’’ freel loading over here…incidentally do you actually trawl through my old posts, or bank them for future use…pathetic.
Keep plugging away on your left wing agenda…
As for my main point…to anybody else.
It seems the craft was not fit for purpose in the first place, being that it was only carrying out a routine type operation it was supposedlly designed for.
So.
Is there a debate to be had over whether or not risky leisure activities should have personal insurance attached?
Be it for medical/accident/rescue?
robroy:
Keep plugging away on your left wing agenda…
Silly comment. It isn`t a question of team red vs team blue or green or orange.
Franglais:
So.
Is there a debate to be had over whether or not risky leisure activities should have personal insurance attached?
Be it for medical/accident/rescue?
robroy:
Keep plugging away on your left wing agenda…
Silly comment. It isn`t a question of team red vs team blue or green or orange.
robroy:
All their families can hope for is that it was a quick death on the first day,.rather than a slow one over a number of days ending in a catastrophic implosion.
RIP to all involved.
At the risk of sounding macabre,I’m pretty sure death would have been almost instantaneous. Whether it was the vewing port that failed, or a more widespread massive hull breach, they would have rapidly been inundated with cold water at a pressure of about 379 times that of atmospheric pressure, this would have i) squeezed all the air from their body cavities, so death by drowning and ii) at that pressure the water would have penetrated the body through the skin. What you call that and what it would look like, I’m not sure, but I’m certain it would have been over very rapidly.
robroy:
All their families can hope for is that it was a quick death on the first day,.rather than a slow one over a number of days ending in a catastrophic implosion.
RIP to all involved.
At the risk of sounding macabre,I’m pretty sure death would have been almost instantaneous. Whether it was the vewing port that failed, or a more widespread massive hull breach, they would have rapidly been inundated with cold water at a pressure of about 379 times that of atmospheric pressure, this would have i) squeezed all the air from their body cavities, so death by drowning and ii) at that pressure the water would have penetrated the body through the skin. What you call that and what it would look like, I’m not sure, but I’m certain it would have been over very rapidly.
Yep, an expert was on the radio saying that the immense pressure found a flaw,.a weak spot in the structure, and that the sub would have just caved in…basically caused by past ‘wear and tear’.
He also implied a craft of that structute and design should never have attempted those depths,.and it was a miracle it did not happen sooner in previous voyages…so basically a matter of time.
Franglais:
And why are some describing themselves/others as “explorerers” rather than “tourists” I wonder?
exploration vs tours
research vs recovering objects to sell
ego trips vs scientific gain of knowledge
commercial profit vs invading a grave
What people choose to describe themselves as, is a reflection of how they perceive their activities, most of the time it’s entirely subjective, so basically, who cares?
I know from first hand experience that ego is definitely an issue with the diving fraternity, who get the same accusations levelled against them all the time. To some, you’re just having fun on holiday and you’re making out like you’re Neil Armstrong, but insurers consider it a dangerous activity and extra insurance is required.
Many divers are just out-and-out scrap metal thieves, many take windy-chisels on a dive to remove items bolted in place. Just because it’s on the bottom of the sea DOES NOT mean no one owns it
Many divers have been known to pillage wrecks where people died, some people refuse to dive those wrecks, others see nothing wrong with taking souvenirs, even if that souvenir happens to be a toy belonging to a child who died when the ship sank (The Salem Express en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Salem_Express )
I fully understand why these guys wanted to visit the wreck, but I would have expected the providers of the experience to have taken the excursion as seriously as would a non-tourist outfit. A former work colleague of mine was fortunate enough to experience a trip on the DSV Alvin, I can’t begin to describe how jealous the rest of us were en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSV_Alvin
Winseer:
If I were to put my conspiracy hat on this, I’d ask the question “How come so many super-rich people - are coming to grief from freak accidents of late?” Is the Antichrist about?
But isn’t your Conspiracy Theorist hat welded to your head? WTF are you bringing Damien into the equation for? You’re looking for correlations where none exist. You’d benefit from some entry-level statistics study, especially in terms of spurious correlations.
Anyone can succumb to an accident, the only difference between the average TN member and the “super rich” is that the general population don’t find TN members as interesting as rich people.
Franglais:
So.
Is there a debate to be had over whether or not risky leisure activities should have personal insurance attached?
Be it for medical/accident/rescue?
Insurance already exists for the diving community, many/most of whom have “rescue insurance” in terms of top level donations to RNLI, together with regular funding activities. RAF guys just enjoy hunting for floating numpties, as they’re at work and getting paid anyways, and lost divers allow the air crews to log the necessary flying hours their vocation requires.
The strongest shape for a pressure (compressive or expansive) vessel is a sphere.
Military etc subs tend to be tubes with hemi-spherical ends. They may have non-pressurized fairings tacked on though to improve dynamics.
Having a uniform shape and having a homogeneous material makes for less stress points in the structure.
This particular craft was a cylinder with ends, rather than a sphere, and was made of carbon fibre and titanium.
Although it doesnt conform to the norms that doesnt make it intrinsically unsafe. But it does raise questions.
What disturbs me the most is that the co-owner of the company was talking to day about how safe it was because of…blah, blah, blah. Admittedly he wasnt the designer, but sounds like part of a group think exercise. The whole set-up was closed to outside influence. How much money enters the equation, I dont know, but since these are paying passengers, financing the project, it is in there somewhere.
Would an owner take a risk to keep a business going? To keep a dream alive? To get there project along?
Of course they would. Half the time they will close their eyes to any risk or trust to “It won`t happen to me”.
No external bodies (Correct me if wrong) inspected this vessel. How can that be right?
,.Boris has gone now,.so has the ‘C’ word (not that one) are you getting withdrawl symptoms? …
…post of the year.
)
