To help cyclist see as well as be seen I have put the suggestion forward that bikes should also be fitted with small compulsory mirrors.
Win, win as not only will cyclists feel more reluctant to go for that dangerous gap they can also see whats coming up from behind.
Also my previous reccomendations of cyclists having to wear hi viz garments and lights will be announced at the appropriate time, I.e. just when cyclists think everything is going their way.
roaduser66:
How do you think the families of these cyclists feel when they see posters here calling cyclists “suicidal”?
Probably about the same as when they see loved ones names used to make a point on an internet forum.
Not that your point isnt valid just that if for any bizarre reason the families google their loved ones theres a chance they might land on this thread.
Once all avenues of making hgvs cyclist friendly have been exhausted then cyclists themselves will come under more scrutiny, if any of this pollaver saves just one life then its been worth it.
Right I’ll go through each of the cases you highlighted in a bit more detail. This is only information gleaned from news articles but many quote investigating officers or coroners inquests.
I’ll separate each case into different posts otherwise it will be a huge block of text and also I haven’t the time to do the lot at once.
Roaduser is right, I recall the Catriona Patel case it was a guy called Dennis Putz. He was driving an 8w tipper for Thames Materials (name well known for the wrong reasons) and was already banned for drink driving and was over the limit when he ran the woman over. As I read it, he was so ■■■■■■ he ran forwards over the cyclist despite people shouting and banging on his doors.
The Alan Neave case was similar. Banned driver working for a cowboy.
Catriona Patel -
You are correct in that this was a drunk driver. In fact he was a serial drink driver and had been caught 20+ times driving a HGV whilst disqualified.
In relation to this thread it could be said that no matter what vehicle he was driving and no matter what safety devices fitted to whatever vehicle being driven by the offender, there was a very high probability of him causing injury or death.
Regarding the operators responsibility, they are in my mind as liable as the driver for basically condoning his reckless actions.
I do feel however that as mentioned above - no amount of training or legislation for the industry as a whole, would have prevented this driver as highlighted by his disregard to his previous bans.
Having just read dipper daves comment, is this in bad taste if so I’ll stop and delete the above post?
roaduser66:
How do you think the families of these cyclists feel when they see posters here calling cyclists “suicidal”?
You tar all HGV drivers with the same brush as dangerous and a menace but you take umbrage at anyone who calls cyclists suicidal.
You have continually refused to acknowledge that there are terrible cyclists out there with no regard to road laws or their own safety (I asked your opinion on a few videos of actions you seemed to think cyclists wouldnt do and you dodged answering them)
Perhaps the roads would be safer if BOTH parties took care and looked after and respected each others road usage instead of cyclists demanding more and more laws and protection while ignoring the fact there are a majority (despite what your “facts and figures” will no doubt say) who have little to no regard for road laws
The majority of us on here condemn bad hgv drivers but the cyclists who frequent our forum seem to have a rather blinkered view of how their fellow bikers act on the road.
Those fatalities were caused by drivers not paying attention.
How many fatalities get AVOIDED through driver vigilance?
How were it with Holiday in December and Londoner shall buy Online?
I am not sure if this has been pointed out before but when you register for Fors a cycle pack comes in the post from TFL and in it are Tax and olicence disc holders ( I know the tax has no. Finished ) but they’ve got the TFL fors advert sticker on too creating a even bigger near side blind spot ,not a good advert for them really if you pardon the pun ,all my disc holders are the traditional metal rubber type with the bracket bent at a right angle so it shadows the pillar thus leaving the screen clear .
kjw21:
Having just read dipper daves comment, is this in bad taste if so I’ll stop and delete the above post?
Take no notice of me, a good honest opinion mixed in with facts is always a good read.
Eilidh Cairns -
Reading into this incident is quite hard due to the apparent shambles of an investigation that apparently took place, so the vast majority of info available centres on this aspect.
What becomes obvious is like the incident already covered it is legislation that already exists and I believe has existed for a fairly long time that the driver in this incident has breached.
Namely eyesight standards and requirements and tacho regulations.
@roaduser66 - how would new legislation and further vehicle modifications have prevented a driver with sub standard eyesight and again showing a disregard for existing legislation (tacho) being involved in this?
I’m not trying to paint drivers/operators as angels, in fact I’m highlighting their responsibilities, BUT further legislation and gimmicks are not going to help this.
Brian Dorling -
The following is from a news report on the coroners inquest to this incident.
"Martin Porter QC, representing Mr Dorling’s family, suggested he had jumped the red light to get away from the McArdle truck, being driven by David Cox. However the lorry also jumped the light and dragged Mr Dorling under its wheels as it turned left across cycle superhighway 2.
After viewing CCTV evidence and pictures of the scene, Coroner Mary Hassell said: “It just seems to me that it’s an accident waiting to happen if cyclists are guided into the space where blue paint is on the left and they’re in the very place where the lorry is going to hit them. It seems like they’re being guided into the place where they’re most vulnerable.”
Accident investigator Pc Alex Hewitt replied: “It’s almost an impossible situation.”
Mr Cox, 49, pleaded guilty to careless driving at an earlier court hearing and was given a suspended 24-week jail sentence and a 100-hour community service order and banned from driving for two years.
Mr Dorling’s path had been blocked by a bus that straddled the bike lane, leaving him alongside the four-axle tipper. The court heard that Mr Dorling probably undertook the lorry.
Asked by the coroner what status cycle superhighways had in relation to vehicles not being permitted to enter, PC Hewitt said: “Legally nothing. It’s just a piece of blue paint.”
Again - not saying that the driver was in no way partly responsible but @roaduser66 seems to have missed out the cyclist jumping the light, the undertaking of the lorry and the acknowledged inadequacy of London’s cycle superhighway design.
It’s easy just to lay blame solely at the driver but you don’t seem so quick to highlight the other issues.
I’m not going to carry on with this @roaduser66 as I feel slightly grubby using facts and conclusions about actual deaths to highlight that this issue isn’t going to be resolved by forcing existing law abiding drivers and operators to leap ever increasing hurdles. Basically cos some will just break them anyway as evidenced.
The annoying part is that you are using snippets of information to spin an agenda and not presenting the full information which in some cases could be used to find a solution.
So far not one of your examples would have been prevented using these new gimmicks and from what I briefly read of the others I haven’t covered - they wouldn’t either.
This solution involves all road users - the majority of us are open to answers. Sadly a large amount of cyclists and town planners/certain mayors seem blinkered in their views.
kjw21:
you are using snippets of information to spin an agenda and not presenting the full information which in some cases could be used to find a solution.
He does that every time he comes on here laying into hgv drivers as ■■■■ viewing maniacs who as oblivious to anyone on two wheels. He comes out with all the pre-prepared facts and figures which are manipulated and he either denies or ignores anything you might see with your own two eyes by instead pointing you in the direction of another “survey” to say that what you see is not accurate.
Ban every lorry from London and make Boris’ day, a fully laden 44 ton truck will need around 25 van loads to get the stuff where it needs to be. Sit back and watch the city die of starvation and most of that will be in the traffic jams.
Oh yes if the mop haired ■■■■ wants to be green then compare the emissions of 25 vans to the emissions of 1 44 tonner.
Anyone noticed the. Plasmore scania with the window in the n.s door bottom ,it’s held in with a rubber rather than bonded ,looks a bit Heath Robinson .
What I don’t get about all these new regulations is why aren’t the powers that be also looking at making sure cyclists have a basic level of competency with a scheme such as - if you want to ride a bike in central London, you have to pass a basic cycling proficiency test?
It won’t stop the idiots for sure just like you’ll not stop the idiot drivers, but as many cyclists in London have probably never driven, it might help reduce the number of injuries and nearmisses. You’d need some kindof registration badge / ID for the cyclists, but it could be a requirement to hire a Boris Bike too that you show provide your reg ID.
All road users should take some form of driver CPC, all groups should be mixed from horse to prosessional so that all can get an understanding of the others problems. Only then maybe we will get some form of law equal for all. From that which I remember of having to driver around London they all want to be there yesterday and if you need directions they the ignorant bunch of [zbs]going. Most driver I have spoken to all agree the place should be nuked with two bombs just to make sure it’s wiped off the face of the earth.