Remainers

Here is something to read. The Lisbon Treaty.
Nicked from another site.
I just got through reading the Lisbon treaty. OMG!!!

WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THE LISBON TREATY, THE TREATY THAT COMES INTO FORCE 2020, ITS WORSE THAN THE SO CALLED DEAL, IF 99% OF THE BRITISH THINK TERESA MAYS DEAL IS BAD, JUST LOOK AT THE LISBON TREATY. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW, LEAVERS AND REMAIN
…“What will actually happen if we stay in the EU” is a question no remainer will ever answer but here it is warts and all.
Check it out if you wish ——>>
1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future that the youths of today think we stole from them?
They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons!
Forget Deals no deals its time for remainers and brexiteers to unite and see whats coming before its to late. This is the whole reason they are dragging brexit out. So we can get to 2020 then we have no choices anynore.

It’s fake, complete fake news

The Lisbon treaty actually happened in 2009…

This was originally posted on the LBC radio page on Facebook by Russian trolls aiming to divide the country further

Like all the…

Other Brexit droning dreariness on here… Bully’s.

Surely this should be in Bully’s.

The Treaty of Lisbon has been in force since 2009. Its main effects are to recast and amend the Treaty of Rome into the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) and the Treaty of Maastricht into the Treaty on European Union (TEU).

The effects of the Treaty of Lisbon are nothing like those stated in the original post.

telegraph.co.uk/finance/eco … -euro.html

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

djw:
The effects of the Treaty of Lisbon are nothing like those stated in the original post.

Here are the key sections of TEU and TFEU on the legislative competence of the EU:

Articles 4 and 5 TEU (italics mine):

Article 4

  1. In accordance with Article 5, competences not conferred upon the Union in the Treaties remain with the Member States.

  2. The Union shall respect the equality of Member States before the Treaties as well as their national identities, inherent in their fundamental structures, political and constitutional, inclusive of regional and local self-government. It shall respect their essential State functions, including ensuring the territorial integrity of the State, maintaining law and order and safeguarding national security. In particular, national security remains the sole responsibility of each Member State.

  3. Pursuant to the principle of sincere cooperation, the Union and the Member States shall, in full mutual respect, assist each other in carrying out tasks which flow from the Treaties.

The Member States shall take any appropriate measure, general or particular, to ensure fulfilment of the obligations arising out of the Treaties or resulting from the acts of the institutions of the Union.

The Member States shall facilitate the achievement of the Union’s tasks and refrain from any measure which could jeopardise the attainment of the Union’s objectives.

Article 5

(ex Article 5 TEC)

  1. The limits of Union competences are governed by the principle of conferral. The use of Union competences is governed by the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality.

  2. Under the principle of conferral, the Union shall act only within the limits of the competences conferred upon it by the Member States in the Treaties to attain the objectives set out therein. Competences not conferred upon the Union in the Treaties remain with the Member States.

  3. Under the principle of subsidiarity, in areas which do not fall within its exclusive competence, the Union shall act only if and in so far as the objectives of the proposed action cannot be sufficiently achieved by the Member States, either at central level or at regional and local level, but can rather, by reason of the scale or effects of the proposed action, be better achieved at Union level.

The institutions of the Union shall apply the principle of subsidiarity as laid down in the Protocol on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. National Parliaments ensure compliance with the principle of subsidiarity in accordance with the procedure set out in that Protocol.

  1. Under the principle of proportionality, the content and form of Union action shall not exceed what is necessary to achieve the objectives of the Treaties.

The institutions of the Union shall apply the principle of proportionality as laid down in the Protocol on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality.

The competences are primarily defined by Articles 3 to 6 TFEU (again, highlights mine):

Article 3

  1. The Union shall have exclusive competence in the following areas:
    (a) customs union;
    (b) the establishing of the competition rules necessary for the functioning of the internal market;
    (c) monetary policy for the Member States whose currency is the euro;
    (d) the conservation of marine biological resources under the common fisheries policy;
    (e) common commercial policy.

  2. The Union shall also have exclusive competence for the conclusion of an international agreement when its conclusion is provided for in a legislative act of the Union or is necessary to enable the Union to exercise its internal competence, or in so far as its conclusion may affect common rules or alter their scope.

Article 4

  1. The Union shall share competence with the Member States where the Treaties confer on it a competence which does not relate to the areas referred to in Articles 3 and 6.

  2. Shared competence between the Union and the Member States applies in the following principal areas:
    (a) internal market;
    (b) social policy, for the aspects defined in this Treaty;
    (c) economic, social and territorial cohesion;
    (d) agriculture and fisheries, excluding the conservation of marine biological resources;
    (e) environment;
    (f) consumer protection;
    (g) transport;
    (h) trans-European networks;
    (i) energy;
    (j) area of freedom, security and justice;
    (k) common safety concerns in public health matters, for the aspects defined in this Treaty.

  3. In the areas of research, technological development and space, the Union shall have competence to carry out activities, in particular to define and implement programmes; however, the exercise of that competence shall not result in Member States being prevented from exercising theirs.

  4. In the areas of development cooperation and humanitarian aid, the Union shall have competence to carry out activities and conduct a common policy; however, the exercise of that competence shall not result in Member States being prevented from exercising theirs.

Article 5

  1. The Member States shall coordinate their economic policies within the Union. To this end, the Council shall adopt measures, in particular broad guidelines for these policies.

Specific provisions shall apply to those Member States whose currency is the euro.

  1. The Union shall take measures to ensure coordination of the employment policies of the Member States, in particular by defining guidelines for these policies.

  2. The Union may take initiatives to ensure coordination of Member States’ social policies.

Article 6

The Union shall have competence to carry out actions to support, coordinate or supplement the actions of the Member States. The areas of such action shall, at European level, be:
(a) protection and improvement of human health;
(b) industry;
(c) culture;
(d) tourism;
(e) education, vocational training, youth and sport;
(f) civil protection;
(g) administrative cooperation.

The EU MAFIA is run by an unelected, unaccountable group of gangsters, the EU MAFIA doesn’t manufacture or produce anything at all ? Besides the Lisbon Treaty, try reading the Barcelona Declaration and the more recent Marrakech Accord, only signed last year by one of Treason May’s minions, if anyone thinks that the EU MAFIA DOES ANYTHING IN OUR COUNTRY’S FAVOUR YOU NEED TO HAVE YOUR HEAD EXAMINED :open_mouth: The EU MAFIA are determined to make our exit from the their control as difficult as possible and OUR treasonous PARLIAMENT are doing everything possible to help them. The remainaics and quisling appeasers who want to stay in are on the payroll of the Soros Foundation and take instructions from the moslem council of britain a front for terrorist recruitment in the UK.

The EU experiment is a continuation of Hitlers plan for a United States of Europe governed by Germany :question: and the last thing they want is to lose OUR COUNTRY’s billions of pounds input that they then decide how much we can have back, they only give a small % back but want the biggest promotion and thanks for giving us our own money. OUR COUNTRY is sliding into a very messy period of civil unrest and possible civil war especially if we don’t leave all of the EU on 29/03/2019 @ 2300hrs

Regards
Dave Penn;

How the right’s Brexit dream died

Free marketeers believed that EU withdrawal could be used as a Trojan horse to impose a new economic model on the UK. But this was always a fantasy.

On 5 July 2016, a fortnight after the UK voted to leave the European Union, Nigel Lawson, the former Conservative chancellor, succinctly defined Brexit’s purpose: “To finish the job that Margaret Thatcher started.” For the free market right, EU withdrawal was the method, the object was to change the British soul. Freed from the bureaucratic shackles of Brussels, the UK would discard ■■■■■■■■■■ regulations and “red tape” and strike trade deals with “the Anglosphere”: Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the US. (Civil servants in the Department for International Trade labelled this vision “Empire 2.0”.)

On 24 June 2016, the morning after the Leave vote, the Centre for Policy Studies, the think tank founded in 1974 by Thatcher and her ideological outriders Keith Joseph and Alfred Sherman, declared: “The weakness of the Labour Party and the resolution of the EU question have created a unique political opportunity to drive through a wide-ranging supply-side revolution on a scale similar to that of the 1980s. This must include removing unnecessary regulatory burdens on businesses, such as those related to climate directives and investment fund regulations.” In May 2016 Tory Brexiteer Priti Patel, the then employment minister, remarked: “If we could just halve the burdens of the EU social and employment legislation we could deliver a £4.3bn boost to our economy and 60,000 new jobs.”

The week before the EU referendum the right-wing Spectator magazine, whose chairman is the BBC politics broadcaster Andrew Neil, published a cover casting the UK as a butterfly breaking free from a chrysalis. “Out – and into the world,” the headline read, as it had in 1975, when the title supported withdrawal from the EEC. Two and a half years later, the butterfly’s wings have been clipped. It is still heading out, but into the real world.

Even if the UK leaves the EU as scheduled on 29 March 2019, it will be bound by all European laws and regulations until at least December 2020 (the “transition period”). In the absence of an EU-approved solution to the Irish border problem, Britain will be prohibited from signing trade deals with other countries (having committed to a UK-wide customs union). The government has further agreed to maintain a “level playing field” with the EU27 in areas such as “competition, social and employment standards, environmental standards, climate change and relevant tax matters”. Far from being liberated, Britannia is enchained.

Theresa May has been identified as the culprit by her party’s Brexiteer wing. Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chair of the European Research Group, has submitted a letter of no confidence in his leader. Boris Johnson has said the Prime Minister is “on the verge of total surrender” to Brussels. Even Nick Timothy, May’s former co-chief of staff, has accused her of a “capitulation” and of never believing Brexit could “be a success”.

The suggestion is that, under a different leader, the UK’s Sisyphean fate could have been averted. But such an interpretation flatters the Brexiteers. For reasons far beyond the Prime Minister’s inadequacies, the dream of a libertarian Brexit was always a fantasy.

The ideology that would become Brexitism was born on 20 September 1988 in Belgium. In her address to the College of Europe (“the Bruges speech”), Margaret Thatcher declared: “We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain only to see them reimposed at a European level.” (Her Conservative conference speech a few weeks later warned of socialism “[creeping] through the back door of central control and bureaucracy from Brussels”.)

Thatcher’s words in Bruges were a riposte to another notable address 12 days earlier by Jacques Delors. Speaking at the Trades Union Congress in Bournemouth, the then European Commission president promised delegates a panoply of workers’ rights – prompting a spontaneous chorus of “Frère Jacques” – and spoke of a “uniquely European model of society”.

Labour, which had advocated withdrawal from the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1983, now embraced the project as a bulwark against Thatcherism. In parallel, the Conservatives, who had taken Britain into the EEC in 1973, came to view Brussels with ever greater suspicion.

But even at this juncture, Thatcher did not suggest Brexit. She spoke instead of “the remarkable progress” of the single market and insisted that: “I want to see us work more closely on the things we can do better together than alone.”

In the years that followed, few Tories backed withdrawal from the EU as opposed to merely reforming it. John Major’s government – in a largely-forgotten negotiating triumph – secured British opt-outs from the single currency and the Delors-inspired Social Chapter (which guaranteed workers a minimum of 28 days’ paid holiday per year, maternity and paternity leave and equal rights for part-time employees). But during the New Labour era, the UK became a recognisably more European economy: the Social Chapter was incorporated into British law and public spending rose from 34.8 per cent of GDP in 1997-98 to 44.9 per cent by 2009-10.

During these wilderness years for the right, the Eurosceptics were sustained by a potent intellectual infrastructure: think tanks including the Centre for Policy Studies, the Adam Smith Institute and the Institute of Economic Affairs; campaign groups such as the TaxPayers’ Alliance (founded by Matthew Elliott, the future chief executive of Vote Leave); publications including the Spectator and the Daily Telegraph; media proprietors such as Rupert Murdoch and Conrad Black; historians such as Niall Ferguson and Andrew Roberts; and Conservative libertarians such as Daniel Hannan and Douglas Carswell. To adapt a phrase from Alan Hollinghurst’s 2004 Booker-winning novel The Line of Beauty, they wanted the Thatcherite 1980s “to go on forever”.

One of the later key texts of this movement was Britannia Unchained (2012), a free market tract written by five emerging Tory MPs from the Free Enterprise Group: Kwasi Kwarteng (the recently appointed Brexit minister), Priti Patel (who later served as international development secretary), Dominic Raab (who resigned as Brexit secretary earlier this month), Chris Skidmore (now a Conservative vice chair) and Liz Truss (the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and libertarian torchbearer).

The book excoriated the UK’s “bloated state, high taxes and excessive regulation” and, most memorably, derided British workers as “among the worst idlers in the world”. Though Britannia Unchained did not advocate EU withdrawal, it exemplified the spirit that would later animate Brexit. Rather than learning from Germany and the Nordic states, as social democrats advocated, it urged the UK to emulate Australia, Canada and the Asian “tiger economies” (Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea).

The free market right viewed the Cameron years as largely a wasted opportunity. Though public spending was sharply reduced, taxes and regulation were not. Cameron’s political philosophy – a fusion of banal Thatcherism, shire Toryism and modish Notting Hill liberalism – was too inchoate for the right’s purposes.

But when the UK voted Leave in 2016, free marketeers identified an alternative vehicle for their project: Brexit. A new Britain would be forged in the white heat of the anti-EU revolution. How, then, was this opportunity squandered?

During the EU referendum campaign, Michael Gove, a former Times journalist, promised to deliver an address on how Brexit would strengthen the Union. The speech was never given. On 23 June 2016, the UK was politically fractured: England and Wales voted Leave by 53 to 47 per cent, but Scotland (62-38) and Northern Ireland (56-44) backed Remain.

The Irish border problem – the defining obstacle now faced by Brexiteers – was neglected during the campaign. In its final pre-vote, pro-Brexit editorial, the Spectator made no reference to either Scotland or Northern Ireland (while this magazine warned that Brexit would “threaten the hard-won peace in Northern Ireland by encouraging the return of border controls”). Others glibly suggested that the Irish border would be “completely unchanged” (Boris Johnson) or accused critics of “scaremongering” (Theresa Villiers, the then Northern Ireland secretary). Such was Leave’s exhilaration at the notion of a supercharged “Anglosphere” that it disregarded the future of the union that already existed. By contrast, Nigel Lawson was honest enough to concede that the UK’s departure from the customs union and the single market meant “there would have to be border controls” between the North and the Republic.

On 21 June 2016, two days before the referendum, Theresa May similarly warned that it was “inconceivable” that “a vote for Brexit would not have a negative impact on the north-south border”. Her subsequent pledge to prevent any new controls – a reaffirmation of the Leave campaign’s own promise – has forced her to accept indefinite UK membership of a customs union. The Brexiteer dream of “Empire 2.0” is being obstructed by the legacy of Empire 1.0: the Irish border.

But the belief that the Anglosphere could serve as a substitute for EU membership was always a delusion. The government’s own analysis suggests that the UK would lose between 2 per cent and 8 per cent of GDP growth over 15 years from a “hard Brexit” (withdrawal from the single market and the customs union), while new trade deals with the US and others would add no more than 0.6 per cent.

Britain, as politicians of all parties have long lamented, does not export enough. But there is little evidence that customs union membership is the main obstacle. Germany’s largest trade partner, for instance, is now China (to which it exports five times more than the UK). Britain’s problems are domestic in origin – low productivity and an under-skilled workforce, a lack of investment and poor infrastructure, an overdependence on finance and services – and domestic in solution.

For the UK’s economic maladies, the right prescribed its traditional brew of tax cuts, deregulation and privatisation. The “Singapore model” is the term that supporters – and some opponents – traditionally employ. But in so doing, they make the reverse of the point they intend. True, Singaporean public spending is low (18 per cent of GDP) and the top income tax rate is just 22 per cent. But far from being a libertarian Disneyland, Singapore has a significantly more dirigiste state than the UK, encompassing publicly-owned banks, airlines and investment agencies. The government owns 90 per cent of land and 80 per cent of Singaporeans live in state-built apartments.

The British right’s vision owes more, perhaps, to the American Republican right or even free market eastern Europe – Estonia, Georgia and Lithuania – where flat tax rates are common (recall that George Osborne flirted with this policy as shadow chancellor in 2005). But whatever label one applies to this model, it was a vision never shared by the prime minister who inherited Brexit.

From the outset of her premiership, Theresa May signalled that rather than extending Thatcherism, she intended to modify it. Her conservatism owes more to French Gaullism and German Christian Democracy than Reaganomics. For May, the state, not the market, is the means by which to advance national greatness.

One of May’s first acts as prime minister was to guarantee that all existing workers’ rights would be unaffected by Brexit (in contrast to David Cameron, who in 2007 pledged that restoring the UK’s opt-out from the Social Chapter was a “top priority”). Rather than reviving the 2012 Beecroft report on employment law – which proposed a “bonfire of regulations” – May appointed the former Labour adviser Matthew Taylor to propose an expansion of rights for gig economy workers (legislation is due to follow). The disparity between the Prime Minister’s rhetoric and reality remains considerable. But her trajectory sharply contrasts with that advocated by her party’s right (an exception is the pledge to reduce corporation tax to just 17 per cent by 2020, the lowest rate in the G20).

Only when discussing the extreme scenario of a no-deal Brexit, have May and her chancellor Philip Hammond threatened to ■■■■■ taxes and regulation. “If we have no access to the European market… we could be forced to change our economic model,” declared Hammond in January 2017. But this warning – largely a negotiating tactic – was rescinded after the Conservatives lost their parliamentary majority last year.

Faced with the threat of a Labour government and public weariness with austerity, the Tories no longer espouse the aim of shrinking the state but promise higher spending on the NHS (“the closest thing the English people have to a religion,” in Lawson’s description) and other public services. Far from the age of “big government” being over, voters now long for its return. The 2018 British Social Attitudes survey found that 60 per cent favour higher taxes and spending (the highest level in 15 years), while a mere 4 per cent wish to further roll back the state.

The appeal of a no-deal Brexit to libertarian Leavers is precisely that they believed it could create the conditions to impose policies unachievable in normal times (just as the 2008 financial crisis enabled austerity). One is reminded of Naomi Klein’s The Shock Doctrine (2007), in which the Canadian activist charted the rise of “disaster capitalism”: free market policies rapidly introduced in societies traumatised by natural or man-made crises.

After the 2016 Brexit vote, Leavers boasted that the UK held “the best cards” in the negotiation. But they complacently underestimated the resilience and unity of the EU27 and how Britain’s desire to “diverge” would be constrained by the need to preserve a soft Irish border. The free market revolution that Brexiteers hoped to launch now resembles a rocket that has failed to fire.

If there is a natural economic model for a post-Brexit Britain it is surely that advocated by “Lexiteers”, such as former Syriza MP and economics professor Costas Lapavitsas, Cambridge academic Chris Bickerton, economist Grace Blakeley and Harvard University’s Richard Tuck. This would entail greater public investment and state intervention, a revival of UK manufacturing and the rebalancing of the economy away from finance and the south-east of England (drawing on the “Rhineland model” of capitalism or, more radically, democratic socialism). The irony, pehaps, is that as it leaves the EU, the UK could yet develop a more European-style economy.

A free market Brexit would have been conceivable in a UK that no longer shared a border with the Republic of Ireland, that did not revere a tax-funded health system, that possessed no obligations to its desolate post-industrial regions, that had fewer tensions and a greater sense of common endeavour among its constituent nations. The Brexiteers, in short, want to govern a country that does not exist.

newstatesman.com/politics/u … dream-died

Leave voters dying and Remainers reaching voting age means majority will soon oppose Brexit, study finds

Demographic changes mean number of Remain supporters grows by 235,000 each year, while number of Leave backers falls by 260,000

A majority of British voters will soon back staying in the EU as more Leave backers die and Remain supporters reach voting age, according to a new study.

Analysis by the former president of YouGov found demographic changes mean around half a million fewer people each year, or around 1,350 a day, now support Brexit – meaning there will soon be enough to overturn the Brexit vote if there was a second referendum.

Even if no one had changed their mind since the 2016 referendum, population changes mean that, from 19 January 2019, a majority of voters will back staying in the EU, according to the analysis. By 29 March, when Britain is due to leave the bloc, the Remain side is forecast to have a majority of around 100,000.

Peter Kellner, YouGov’s former president, said the finding supported calls for the public to be given a Final Say on Brexit.

Writing for The Independent, he said: “Early next year, Britain will switch from a pro-Brexit to an anti-Brexit country. To be more precise: if not a single voter in the referendum two years ago changes their mind, enough mainly Leave voters will have died and enough mainly Remain voters will have reached voting age to wipe out the Leave majority achieved in June 2016.

“This means that by 29 March, it will be difficult to sustain the argument that the settled view of the British electorate is that Brexit should take place. We are told that we should ‘respect the verdict of the people’, and not reopen the decision they – we – reached in 2016.

“The latest research shows that this depends not only on the proposition that voters cannot change their minds, but on a specific definition of ‘the people’.”

The analysis found that an extra 235,000 Remain voters join the electorate each year, as 395,000 reach voting age and 160,000 die.

At the same time, the number of Leave supporters falls by 260,000 a year. 320,000 die and just 60,000 reach voting age.

YouGov found that young people who did not vote in the 2016 referendum are particularly supportive of calls for another poll.

Among under-25s who did not vote in 2016 but would be certain to do so in a new referendum, 82 per cent said they would back Remain.

And 75 per cent of people who were too young to vote in 2016 say they want a Final Say vote.

Around 87 per cent of under-25s would now vote to stay the EU.

independent.co.uk/news/uk/p … 41971.html

so, who are you preparing this Brexit for, these that will have to deal with its consequences for the rest of their lives, and oppose it, or those that are quickly dying out, and won’t have to live with it?

Well, just glad we had a ‘once in a generation’ democratic referendum that gave the Government the green light to leave the icy grip of the EU MAFIA.
It’s just a shame that the remainaics that are still pushing project fear 25 and are really very, very sore childlike losers who don’t understand democracy or what being the winner of a democratic vote really means :laughing: :sunglasses:

Regards
Dave Penn;

hkloss1:
so, who are you preparing this Brexit for, these that will have to deal with its consequences for the rest of their lives, and oppose it, or those that are quickly dying out, and won’t have to live with it?

What a vile post, typical deluded remainer.
So you would like another vote because you didn’t like the result and are hoping to win it because people who didn’t agree with you might be dead, that’s tragic, disgusting and pathetic
What is your age limit then for voting in general elections, using your logic we should be putting an age limit on democracy so the right people can live through the results,so answer the question, what’s the age limit? If you can’t answer me then you’re a hypocrite.
You lost a vote and now you want people to die in order to try and win a second vote, you need a word with yourself, that’s appalling.

Thanks for confirming one though, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever about democratic rights.
If you feel that people should use their precious vote to keep others happy and not to express what they believe then you should jog on to some tinpot African dictatorship and take part in one of their “elections” as that is what you are suggesting.
You’ve ignored democracy, ignored people’s rights and ignored the result.
What a disgusting offensive excuse for a human.
Keep peddling your manure, I’m sure it will become more and more desperate…

Okay, I didn’t read the remainiacs diatribe because after the first couple of lines I just wasn’t wasting my valuable time on reading a load of old worn out tosh that is trotted out by these people time and time again. The diatribe does illustrate one key thing the EU MAFIA’s indoctrination programme has worked very effictively on susceptible people to such an extent that they will argue that the TRUTH is LIES and LIES are the TRUTH, the thought police are a reality right now in the UK and you can be arrested and imprisoned for having the ‘wrong’ thoughts :open_mouth: This left wing fascism and their socialist EU MAFIA masters who are instrumental in implementing these crackdowns on OUR freedoms and the remainiacs think that is DEMOCRACY no this is far left FASCISM and that’s what the remainiacs are too blind to see :open_mouth: :unamused:

Regards
Dave Penn;

SWEDISH BLUE:
Here is something to read. The Lisbon Treaty.
Nicked from another site.
I just got through reading the Lisbon treaty. OMG!!!

WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THE LISBON TREATY, THE TREATY THAT COMES INTO FORCE 2020, ITS WORSE THAN THE SO CALLED DEAL, IF 99% OF THE BRITISH THINK TERESA MAYS DEAL IS BAD, JUST LOOK AT THE LISBON TREATY. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW, LEAVERS AND REMAIN
…“What will actually happen if we stay in the EU” is a question no remainer will ever answer but here it is warts and all.
Check it out if you wish ——>>
1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future that the youths of today think we stole from them?
They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons!
Forget Deals no deals its time for remainers and brexiteers to unite and see whats coming before its to late. This is the whole reason they are dragging brexit out. So we can get to 2020 then we have no choices anynore.

Hiya Nigel.

hkloss1:
How the right’s Brexit dream died

Free marketeers believed that EU withdrawal could be used as a Trojan horse to impose a new economic model on the UK. But this was always a fantasy.

On 5 July 2016, a fortnight after the UK voted to leave the European Union, Nigel Lawson, the former Conservative chancellor, succinctly defined Brexit’s purpose: “To finish the job that Margaret Thatcher started.” For the free market right, EU withdrawal was the method, the object was to change the British soul. Freed from the bureaucratic shackles of Brussels, the UK would discard ■■■■■■■■■■ regulations and “red tape” and strike trade deals with “the Anglosphere”: Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the US. (Civil servants in the Department for International Trade labelled this vision “Empire 2.0”.)

On 24 June 2016, the morning after the Leave vote, the Centre for Policy Studies, the think tank founded in 1974 by Thatcher and her ideological outriders Keith Joseph and Alfred Sherman, declared: “The weakness of the Labour Party and the resolution of the EU question have created a unique political opportunity to drive through a wide-ranging supply-side revolution on a scale similar to that of the 1980s. This must include removing unnecessary regulatory burdens on businesses, such as those related to climate directives and investment fund regulations.” In May 2016 Tory Brexiteer Priti Patel, the then employment minister, remarked: “If we could just halve the burdens of the EU social and employment legislation we could deliver a £4.3bn boost to our economy and 60,000 new jobs.”

The week before the EU referendum the right-wing Spectator magazine, whose chairman is the BBC politics broadcaster Andrew Neil, published a cover casting the UK as a butterfly breaking free from a chrysalis. “Out – and into the world,” the headline read, as it had in 1975, when the title supported withdrawal from the EEC. Two and a half years later, the butterfly’s wings have been clipped. It is still heading out, but into the real world.

Even if the UK leaves the EU as scheduled on 29 March 2019, it will be bound by all European laws and regulations until at least December 2020 (the “transition period”). In the absence of an EU-approved solution to the Irish border problem, Britain will be prohibited from signing trade deals with other countries (having committed to a UK-wide customs union). The government has further agreed to maintain a “level playing field” with the EU27 in areas such as “competition, social and employment standards, environmental standards, climate change and relevant tax matters”. Far from being liberated, Britannia is enchained.

Theresa May has been identified as the culprit by her party’s Brexiteer wing. Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chair of the European Research Group, has submitted a letter of no confidence in his leader. Boris Johnson has said the Prime Minister is “on the verge of total surrender” to Brussels. Even Nick Timothy, May’s former co-chief of staff, has accused her of a “capitulation” and of never believing Brexit could “be a success”.

The suggestion is that, under a different leader, the UK’s Sisyphean fate could have been averted. But such an interpretation flatters the Brexiteers. For reasons far beyond the Prime Minister’s inadequacies, the dream of a libertarian Brexit was always a fantasy.

The ideology that would become Brexitism was born on 20 September 1988 in Belgium. In her address to the College of Europe (“the Bruges speech”), Margaret Thatcher declared: “We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain only to see them reimposed at a European level.” (Her Conservative conference speech a few weeks later warned of socialism “[creeping] through the back door of central control and bureaucracy from Brussels”.)

Thatcher’s words in Bruges were a riposte to another notable address 12 days earlier by Jacques Delors. Speaking at the Trades Union Congress in Bournemouth, the then European Commission president promised delegates a panoply of workers’ rights – prompting a spontaneous chorus of “Frère Jacques” – and spoke of a “uniquely European model of society”.

Labour, which had advocated withdrawal from the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1983, now embraced the project as a bulwark against Thatcherism. In parallel, the Conservatives, who had taken Britain into the EEC in 1973, came to view Brussels with ever greater suspicion.

But even at this juncture, Thatcher did not suggest Brexit. She spoke instead of “the remarkable progress” of the single market and insisted that: “I want to see us work more closely on the things we can do better together than alone.”

In the years that followed, few Tories backed withdrawal from the EU as opposed to merely reforming it. John Major’s government – in a largely-forgotten negotiating triumph – secured British opt-outs from the single currency and the Delors-inspired Social Chapter (which guaranteed workers a minimum of 28 days’ paid holiday per year, maternity and paternity leave and equal rights for part-time employees). But during the New Labour era, the UK became a recognisably more European economy: the Social Chapter was incorporated into British law and public spending rose from 34.8 per cent of GDP in 1997-98 to 44.9 per cent by 2009-10.

During these wilderness years for the right, the Eurosceptics were sustained by a potent intellectual infrastructure: think tanks including the Centre for Policy Studies, the Adam Smith Institute and the Institute of Economic Affairs; campaign groups such as the TaxPayers’ Alliance (founded by Matthew Elliott, the future chief executive of Vote Leave); publications including the Spectator and the Daily Telegraph; media proprietors such as Rupert Murdoch and Conrad Black; historians such as Niall Ferguson and Andrew Roberts; and Conservative libertarians such as Daniel Hannan and Douglas Carswell. To adapt a phrase from Alan Hollinghurst’s 2004 Booker-winning novel The Line of Beauty, they wanted the Thatcherite 1980s “to go on forever”.

One of the later key texts of this movement was Britannia Unchained (2012), a free market tract written by five emerging Tory MPs from the Free Enterprise Group: Kwasi Kwarteng (the recently appointed Brexit minister), Priti Patel (who later served as international development secretary), Dominic Raab (who resigned as Brexit secretary earlier this month), Chris Skidmore (now a Conservative vice chair) and Liz Truss (the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and libertarian torchbearer).

The book excoriated the UK’s “bloated state, high taxes and excessive regulation” and, most memorably, derided British workers as “among the worst idlers in the world”. Though Britannia Unchained did not advocate EU withdrawal, it exemplified the spirit that would later animate Brexit. Rather than learning from Germany and the Nordic states, as social democrats advocated, it urged the UK to emulate Australia, Canada and the Asian “tiger economies” (Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea).

The free market right viewed the Cameron years as largely a wasted opportunity. Though public spending was sharply reduced, taxes and regulation were not. Cameron’s political philosophy – a fusion of banal Thatcherism, shire Toryism and modish Notting Hill liberalism – was too inchoate for the right’s purposes.

But when the UK voted Leave in 2016, free marketeers identified an alternative vehicle for their project: Brexit. A new Britain would be forged in the white heat of the anti-EU revolution. How, then, was this opportunity squandered?

During the EU referendum campaign, Michael Gove, a former Times journalist, promised to deliver an address on how Brexit would strengthen the Union. The speech was never given. On 23 June 2016, the UK was politically fractured: England and Wales voted Leave by 53 to 47 per cent, but Scotland (62-38) and Northern Ireland (56-44) backed Remain.

The Irish border problem – the defining obstacle now faced by Brexiteers – was neglected during the campaign. In its final pre-vote, pro-Brexit editorial, the Spectator made no reference to either Scotland or Northern Ireland (while this magazine warned that Brexit would “threaten the hard-won peace in Northern Ireland by encouraging the return of border controls”). Others glibly suggested that the Irish border would be “completely unchanged” (Boris Johnson) or accused critics of “scaremongering” (Theresa Villiers, the then Northern Ireland secretary). Such was Leave’s exhilaration at the notion of a supercharged “Anglosphere” that it disregarded the future of the union that already existed. By contrast, Nigel Lawson was honest enough to concede that the UK’s departure from the customs union and the single market meant “there would have to be border controls” between the North and the Republic.

On 21 June 2016, two days before the referendum, Theresa May similarly warned that it was “inconceivable” that “a vote for Brexit would not have a negative impact on the north-south border”. Her subsequent pledge to prevent any new controls – a reaffirmation of the Leave campaign’s own promise – has forced her to accept indefinite UK membership of a customs union. The Brexiteer dream of “Empire 2.0” is being obstructed by the legacy of Empire 1.0: the Irish border.

But the belief that the Anglosphere could serve as a substitute for EU membership was always a delusion. The government’s own analysis suggests that the UK would lose between 2 per cent and 8 per cent of GDP growth over 15 years from a “hard Brexit” (withdrawal from the single market and the customs union), while new trade deals with the US and others would add no more than 0.6 per cent.

Britain, as politicians of all parties have long lamented, does not export enough. But there is little evidence that customs union membership is the main obstacle. Germany’s largest trade partner, for instance, is now China (to which it exports five times more than the UK). Britain’s problems are domestic in origin – low productivity and an under-skilled workforce, a lack of investment and poor infrastructure, an overdependence on finance and services – and domestic in solution.

For the UK’s economic maladies, the right prescribed its traditional brew of tax cuts, deregulation and privatisation. The “Singapore model” is the term that supporters – and some opponents – traditionally employ. But in so doing, they make the reverse of the point they intend. True, Singaporean public spending is low (18 per cent of GDP) and the top income tax rate is just 22 per cent. But far from being a libertarian Disneyland, Singapore has a significantly more dirigiste state than the UK, encompassing publicly-owned banks, airlines and investment agencies. The government owns 90 per cent of land and 80 per cent of Singaporeans live in state-built apartments.

The British right’s vision owes more, perhaps, to the American Republican right or even free market eastern Europe – Estonia, Georgia and Lithuania – where flat tax rates are common (recall that George Osborne flirted with this policy as shadow chancellor in 2005). But whatever label one applies to this model, it was a vision never shared by the prime minister who inherited Brexit.

From the outset of her premiership, Theresa May signalled that rather than extending Thatcherism, she intended to modify it. Her conservatism owes more to French Gaullism and German Christian Democracy than Reaganomics. For May, the state, not the market, is the means by which to advance national greatness.

One of May’s first acts as prime minister was to guarantee that all existing workers’ rights would be unaffected by Brexit (in contrast to David Cameron, who in 2007 pledged that restoring the UK’s opt-out from the Social Chapter was a “top priority”). Rather than reviving the 2012 Beecroft report on employment law – which proposed a “bonfire of regulations” – May appointed the former Labour adviser Matthew Taylor to propose an expansion of rights for gig economy workers (legislation is due to follow). The disparity between the Prime Minister’s rhetoric and reality remains considerable. But her trajectory sharply contrasts with that advocated by her party’s right (an exception is the pledge to reduce corporation tax to just 17 per cent by 2020, the lowest rate in the G20).

Only when discussing the extreme scenario of a no-deal Brexit, have May and her chancellor Philip Hammond threatened to ■■■■■ taxes and regulation. “If we have no access to the European market… we could be forced to change our economic model,” declared Hammond in January 2017. But this warning – largely a negotiating tactic – was rescinded after the Conservatives lost their parliamentary majority last year.

Faced with the threat of a Labour government and public weariness with austerity, the Tories no longer espouse the aim of shrinking the state but promise higher spending on the NHS (“the closest thing the English people have to a religion,” in Lawson’s description) and other public services. Far from the age of “big government” being over, voters now long for its return. The 2018 British Social Attitudes survey found that 60 per cent favour higher taxes and spending (the highest level in 15 years), while a mere 4 per cent wish to further roll back the state.

The appeal of a no-deal Brexit to libertarian Leavers is precisely that they believed it could create the conditions to impose policies unachievable in normal times (just as the 2008 financial crisis enabled austerity). One is reminded of Naomi Klein’s The Shock Doctrine (2007), in which the Canadian activist charted the rise of “disaster capitalism”: free market policies rapidly introduced in societies traumatised by natural or man-made crises.

After the 2016 Brexit vote, Leavers boasted that the UK held “the best cards” in the negotiation. But they complacently underestimated the resilience and unity of the EU27 and how Britain’s desire to “diverge” would be constrained by the need to preserve a soft Irish border. The free market revolution that Brexiteers hoped to launch now resembles a rocket that has failed to fire.

If there is a natural economic model for a post-Brexit Britain it is surely that advocated by “Lexiteers”, such as former Syriza MP and economics professor Costas Lapavitsas, Cambridge academic Chris Bickerton, economist Grace Blakeley and Harvard University’s Richard Tuck. This would entail greater public investment and state intervention, a revival of UK manufacturing and the rebalancing of the economy away from finance and the south-east of England (drawing on the “Rhineland model” of capitalism or, more radically, democratic socialism). The irony, pehaps, is that as it leaves the EU, the UK could yet develop a more European-style economy.

A free market Brexit would have been conceivable in a UK that no longer shared a border with the Republic of Ireland, that did not revere a tax-funded health system, that possessed no obligations to its desolate post-industrial regions, that had fewer tensions and a greater sense of common endeavour among its constituent nations. The Brexiteers, in short, want to govern a country that does not exist.

newstatesman.com/politics/u … dream-died

So what this article is saying is that a post Brexit Britain, far from being a free marketers paradise we feared will have to build up it manufacturing base, helped by goverment and be less reliant on the financial service sector, in fact adopting a much more French and German economic model?

If that’s what Brexit will deliver sign me up, obviously be a few years of disruption while we change 30+ years of free market neoliberal economic policies, but got to be worth it.

Trustred:
It’s fake, complete fake news

The Lisbon treaty actually happened in 2009…

This was originally posted on the LBC radio page on Facebook by Russian trolls aiming to divide the country further

Says some johnny-■■■-lately with 4 posts…

The Lison treaty, actually started in 2009 on paper - comes into full force in 2020, obliging any member states to join the Euro, if not already in it by that point.

This would affect Hungary as well as Britain of course, and we already see Hungary lurching Right, not wanting this future attack on their own Florint currency.

I, of course - must be one of the highest ranked Russian Trolls in the country, speaking Perfect English, and with my ancestory dating back so far, that Russia didn’t even exist back then. Perfect sleeper cover!
I’m no doubt paid over a million rubles per year into my Estonian bank account, whilst only pretending to be a lowly truck driver, trying to make ends meet. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

It is actually TRUE that if we don’t leave the EU, then we won’t be allowed to ever again, once this “opportunity” has passed us by.

Our future rebate WILL be cancelled, and our future contributions WILL be increased above inflation - to fund the ongoing immgration and unemployment problems around the Mediterranean coastal EU member states in particular.

“War is a continuation of politics by other means”

Take “War” off the table - and there’s only the very dirtiest of politics left.

As we approach March 29th - we’re going to see ever-nastier made-up stories of Brexit, the Brexiteers, and anyone who has the remotest love for their country here in Blighty.

What do we get if we Remain though?

…I’m still waiting to hear something other than “It ends Brexit, and makes 17.4m people unhappy - Yippee!” myself…

muckles:
So what this article is saying is that a post Brexit Britain, far from being a free marketers paradise we feared will have to build up it manufacturing base, helped by goverment and be less reliant on the financial service sector, in fact adopting a much more French and German economic model?

If that’s what Brexit will deliver sign me up, obviously be a few years of disruption while we change 30+ years of free market neoliberal economic policies, but got to be worth it.

But that article is surely showing the Brexit promised by the right cannot come about?

It doesnt say that the ruling right will stay and re-invest! The Free Marketeers are the Globalists who are doing so much harm surely? They have been underinvesting for decades and if Brexit is the disaster it could be, they wont be hanging around to invest in the long term recovery of the UK.
The Rees-Moggs, Farages etc of this world don`t invest in companies for stable long term growth, they buy and sell in the short term. They make profits in a falling market as easily as in arising one! They use patriotism as a tool but have no real allegiance to the UK, they are rich enough to take their profits and move on!
Scream ! Shout !

I think?

The only thing that could kill off this notion of a “Right Wing” Brexit - is a Left version being implemented in the meantime instead. Parliament - have totally failed to do thus however, confusing Brexit itself with being some Right Wing project in it’s entirety, which it actually is NOT.

Wanting your country to improve it’s own public services without borrowing or raising taxes - seems like a good idea.

All we have to do to raise funds to fund better public services - is to stop paying for OTHER country’s public services, via our EU contributions…

The Left seem to think that if we don’t get any rebate backhanded money from the EU - that Leftist causes won’t get ANY money in future.

Well, sorry to break it to you folks - but the rebate will eventually be cancelled as early as next year ANYWAY.

Let’s say Brexit gets overturned at the end of this month…

The EU can then a year later - increase our contributions as much as they like, to fund pretty much anything they want as well:
Pay to skip food mountains, rather than give the food away to the third world.
Pay to lose building and engineering contracts to mainland-Europe based manufacturers.
Pay to increase policing in those countries deemed to have “shifted to the Right”
Pay the benefits bill of those countries that now have massive youth unemployment in particular.
Pay to transport “excess population” over here to Britain, where they can put further strain on our NHS if not working and paying National Insurances, OR actually getting a job IN the NHS, but losing patients due to language issues.
Pay to produce mainstream media propaganda that renders any arguments like I’m mentioning here as “Right Wing Hate Speech”.
To declare war on “Russian Trolls” in East Ukraine, putting the whole European continent at risk of Nuclear War with Russia.
Just let Ukraine split in two like former Czeckovslovakia did - but to do THAT - you need to have a referendum that Ukraine will honour the result of. IMPOSSIBLE alas, as they are anti-democratic.

If the LEFT had taken control of Brexit at the very beginning (By Corbyn being a proper leader of the opposition, and picking up the Brexit gauntlet when Tory PM Cameron came out for “Remain”)…

Corbyn would be PM by now.
Brexit - would have been completed rather more quickly, as the EU would be keen to keep a fellow socialist government in power in the UK… Saying “Non” to Corbyn’s government - would get the then-opposition Tories a foothold back on a more Right wing version of Brexit - so quickly deliver a Left version (probably bothced, but there you go…) INSTEAD then.

By over 75% of our parliement refusing to imlement what they promised in 2016 however - There is now an open door to abolish voting itself in this country…

“Labour get two more seats than the Tories at the next election” - Weak minority government implemented at once.
“Labour win a majority at the next election” - Vote again.
“Tories win a majority at the next election” - Vote again.

Franglais:

muckles:
So what this article is saying is that a post Brexit Britain, far from being a free marketers paradise we feared will have to build up it manufacturing base, helped by goverment and be less reliant on the financial service sector, in fact adopting a much more French and German economic model?

If that’s what Brexit will deliver sign me up, obviously be a few years of disruption while we change 30+ years of free market neoliberal economic policies, but got to be worth it.

But that article is surely showing the Brexit promised by the right cannot come about?

It doesnt say that the ruling right will stay and re-invest! The Free Marketeers are the Globalists who are doing so much harm surely? They have been underinvesting for decades and if Brexit is the disaster it could be, they wont be hanging around to invest in the long term recovery of the UK.
The Rees-Moggs, Farages etc of this world don`t invest in companies for stable long term growth, they buy and sell in the short term. They make profits in a falling market as easily as in arising one! They use patriotism as a tool but have no real allegiance to the UK, they are rich enough to take their profits and move on!
Scream ! Shout !

I think?

To be honest it was a bit of a non serious answer, to an opinion piece in the New Statesman, regurgeted out of context, the political map of the UK and EU is vastly different from the day of the referendum in 2016, and its that shift and a waking up of the people that, I in my idealistic moments, hope will change the system for the better. In my less hopeful moments I see civil unrest and an establishment using every dirty trick to hold onto power and subjugate those who don’t tow the line.

Franglais:

muckles:
So what this article is saying is that a post Brexit Britain, far from being a free marketers paradise we feared will have to build up it manufacturing base, helped by goverment and be less reliant on the financial service sector, in fact adopting a much more French and German economic model?

If that’s what Brexit will deliver sign me up, obviously be a few years of disruption while we change 30+ years of free market neoliberal economic policies, but got to be worth it.

But that article is surely showing the Brexit promised by the right cannot come about?

It doesnt say that the ruling right will stay and re-invest! The Free Marketeers are the Globalists who are doing so much harm surely? They have been underinvesting for decades and if Brexit is the disaster it could be, they wont be hanging around to invest in the long term recovery of the UK.
The Rees-Moggs, Farages etc of this world don`t invest in companies for stable long term growth, they buy and sell in the short term. They make profits in a falling market as easily as in arising one! They use patriotism as a tool but have no real allegiance to the UK, they are rich enough to take their profits and move on!
Scream ! Shout !

I think?

I reckon we need to get past these notions that “Rees Mogg has more money than me, so I hate him” or “Corbyn is so far left, he as PM would be a total disaster for this country”.
I don’t give a toss who improves our public services, as long as they get improved.

I voted Libdem for more than any other party in my life, and was very disappointed to not see the Libdems in government yet again, following the 1997 election.
The sky did NOT fall on my head however, and I didn’t protest “Not My Government!” down the streets, when Blair was blubbing terms like “People’s Princess” on the news, rather than talking about his EU masters.

Remainers - need to accept that if we complete Brexit FIRST, we can always kick out the tories LATER, if they continue Austerity - which we voted leave to STOP.
The Tories - to turn Brexit into a personal “RIght” Success for THEM - would need to pretty much dish out £39bn from March 29th, and then £18bn in saved, unpaid EU contributions thereafter - with the lion’s share of that money going to the NHS.
If they do anything SHORT of this, then we’ll just vote them out, and get Labour to hand out that money instead - CORRECT■■?

Get the Money. Stop the EU from wasting it. Spend it on ourselves.

Brexit is a PEOPLE’S vote, and a people’s vote we’ve already had.
It is time for this “resistance” to end.

Let Brexit happen, and I’d happily see a Corbyn Government as a “Price worth paying” for a No Deal Brexit.

muckles:

Franglais:

muckles:
So what this article is saying is that a post Brexit Britain, far from being a free marketers paradise we feared will have to build up it manufacturing base, helped by goverment and be less reliant on the financial service sector, in fact adopting a much more French and German economic model?

If that’s what Brexit will deliver sign me up, obviously be a few years of disruption while we change 30+ years of free market neoliberal economic policies, but got to be worth it.

But that article is surely showing the Brexit promised by the right cannot come about?

It doesnt say that the ruling right will stay and re-invest! The Free Marketeers are the Globalists who are doing so much harm surely? They have been underinvesting for decades and if Brexit is the disaster it could be, they wont be hanging around to invest in the long term recovery of the UK.
The Rees-Moggs, Farages etc of this world don`t invest in companies for stable long term growth, they buy and sell in the short term. They make profits in a falling market as easily as in arising one! They use patriotism as a tool but have no real allegiance to the UK, they are rich enough to take their profits and move on!
Scream ! Shout !

I think?

To be honest it was a bit of a non serious answer, to an opinion piece in the New Statesman, regurgeted out of context, the political map of the UK and EU is vastly different from the day of the referendum in 2016, and its that shift and a waking up of the people that, I in my idealistic moments, hope will change the system for the better. In my less hopeful moments I see civil unrest and an establishment using every dirty trick to hold onto power and subjugate those who don’t tow the line.

Sorry…
I knew I was going off on one as I was tapping away!
I do admire your idealistic targets, but well, we`ll see…
I too worry about the odds of an harmonious outcome.

Waking people up to the truth? Here is a link to “More or Less”.
bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b08lk542
It`s from a few years ago, but the section from 6min30 is very relevant.