Coffeeholic wrote:
The rule makers cannot therefore define it by length
But in fact they actually do if you read it.
I know 
- it says WITHIN each period of 24 hours- it does not say it HAS to be a 24-hour period
I wonder if saying - WITHIN 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period… - would make a difference 
ROG:
Coffeeholic wrote:
The rule makers cannot therefore define it by length
But in fact they actually do if you read it.I know
[/quote]Actually it appears you don’t.
ROG:
- it says WITHIN each period of 24 hours- it does not say it HAS to be a 24-hour period
That’s not the bit. I was referring to reading the text Mike quoted in his last post.
ROG:
I wonder if saying - WITHIN 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period… - would make a differenceOf course it would. 24 hours is 24 hours.
Rog
just out of curisosity when was the last time you had a weekly regs for working under the EU regs 
cos if i think off it you said some where on the forum that you 5 years
I’ve NEVER driven under the current regs 
I’m going to look at this differently.
If the time was noon on a monday and I said to someone, within the next 48 hours (2 days) I will contact you then that person would be expecting me to contact them between noon monday & noon wednesday.
If the time was noon on a monday and I said to someone, I will contact you 48 hours (2 days) from now then that person would be expecting me to contact them at noon on wednesday.
Now to expand that to the regs using basic ENGLISH…
Within each (period) of _(24 hours)_does not say that it is a (24-hour period) - the words etc would need to be in the same bracket to make it the same.
Whether other countries use language in the same way I do not know.
Coffeeholic:
delboytwo:
reading the above it still looks like 56 hours and a 90 hour spreadYou are falling into the trap of assuming you could only do six shifts in a week, you could do more than that with a weekly rest during the week. Under the old regs it was legally possible to do the following.
Start at 00:00 Monday
Drive 10 hours
9 hours rest
Drive 10 hours
9 hours rest
Drive 9 hours
9 hours rest
Drive 9 hours
11 hours rest
Drive 9 hours
11 hours rest
Drive 9 hours
24-hour weekly rest away from base.
Drive 9 hours
11 hours rest
Continue the 9 drive 11 rest pattern until 24:00 Sunday and all breaks are taken during each shift as required.By the time the new week started you would have legally done a little over 70 hours driving with a weekly rest taken after no more than six daily driving periods as required. I can’t remember the exact number but I think it was something like 72 or 73 hours. It would be very unlikely to happen to that extreme as it leaves no time for anything else such as fuelling, checks, hooking trailers etc but the point was it was legally possible so a weekly limit of 56 hours was introduced to prevent it. Even allowing say 15 minutes a shift for checks your driving would be still well in excess of 56 hours for the week. I’ve done weeks in the past with more than 56 hours driving in them going to the south of Spain or Italy where for about 3 days in each direction you do little more than drive, break, drive, rest, drive, break drive, rest etc.
As you like the quiz questions here’s one for you.
Under the old regs what was the maximum driving possible in six shifts?
Under the changed regs what is the maximum driving possible in six shifts?
Not as complicated as Mike’s questions but an easy one for a Monday.
Hi neil i will say 58 and 58
delboytwo:
Hi neil i will say 58 and 58
Correct, told you it was an easy one. 
Coffeeholic:
delboytwo:
Hi neil i will say 58 and 58Correct, told you it was an easy one.
i wonder if any one will ask why Neil
ROG:
Now to expand that to the regs using basic ENGLISH…Within each (period) of _(24 hours)_does not say that it is a (24-hour period) - the words etc would need to be in the same bracket to make it the same.
Ok, Neil gets extra points when he gets you to type bold or in different colours. I count my points on the time in the mornings i get a reply 
But really, we are all doing a lot of guessing, assuming and trying to work out interpretations. All totally unecessary, as its been done for us.
Two questions is all we need to answer.
We can start with the basic question is it legal to use 7 charts in six days, if we can assume that each chart is seperated by legal break and the 7 charts do not go over 144 hours.(the original question)
Can we work past a 144 hour limit, counting from when we last finished our weekly rest.(My question brought about by the 144 hour limit assumption)
And here is the rule, from regulation (EC) No 561/2006, Article 8
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.
All we need to answer is what is six 24 hour periods?
If anyone does not want to read throughTHIS. then i’ll take the libery of highlighting the relevant parts.
First thing to note is that this judgement and the one cited within it are actual definitions to regs 561/2006 and 3821/85, and indeed are quoted as being the relevant descriptions.
So what is a 24 hour period?
29 In its judgment in Van Swieten, cited *****, the Court defined the expression “period of 24 hours” as meaning the period commencing at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period.
30 The reply to the second question should therefore be that the term “day”, within the meaning of Regulations Nos 3820/85 and 3821/85, must be understood as equivalent to the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period.
From this we can deduce that a period of 24 hours starts when we end a rest period, weekly or daily and we activate our tachograph. It finishes when the 24 hours are up. When does the next one start? Again we can refer to the above definition, it starts when we finish a daily or weekly rest period and we activate our tachograph. This being the case, it is possible that the second time we ‘activate the tacho graph’ may be 30 hours after the first activation (of the week) or it may be shorter than 24 hours. Thus six 24 hour periods could be less than, equal to or greater than 144 hours.
Thats all we need to know to answer the original two questions. Therefore you cannot ‘use 7 charts in 6 days’ as each chart constitutes a 24 hour period. And yes you can work past 144 hours since your last weekly rest as six 24 hour periods does not neccesarily amount to 144 hours.
As an aside to these questions, in a fixed week if we max out our working hours and minimise our breaks trying to work to the 144 hour limit and then taking a reduced rest of 24hours, if we do it per VOSA style diagrams whereby we do the max work and min rest periods, you would be commencing a weekly rest after 131 hours. This would leave you a few hours short of a week, and actually encroach into this 144 hour barrier. This would lead to a fixed week being less than a fixed week.
If we try the same diagrams concerning maximum daily work and minimum rest then we do indeed come to a full 24 hours.
Thats your definitive answer irregardless of any other advice to the contrary. Thats not my answer, thats exactly what the regs say.
Hi Mike
put like that and in reading your qoutes i would have to agree with you
For Regulations Nos 3820/85 and 3821/85 I will agree with you Mike.
First thing to note is that this judgement and the one cited within it are actual definitions to regs 561/2006 and 3821/85,
Where does it say that this is relevant to EC REGULATION 561/2006
30 The reply to the second question should therefore be that the term “day”, within the meaning of Regulations Nos 3820/85 and 3821/85, must be understood as equivalent to the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period.
It also refers to a PERIOD of 24-HOURS and not a 24-HOUR PERIOD 
Lawyers/law writers/legal boffs are very clever people and the way they word something is very specific.
If they had meant to say within a 24-HOUR PERIOD then that is what would have been written but they did not - they wrote within a PERIOD of 24-HOURS .
Ask the question - why did they do it this way? and the answer becomes clear - they have different meanings.
ROG:
For Regulations Nos 3820/85 and 3821/85 I will agree with you Mike.First thing to note is that this judgement and the one cited within it are actual definitions to regs 561/2006 and 3821/85,
Good !! 3821/85 is a current legislation (for recording equiptment) and within it if you look it specifically says it uses the definitions set out in 3820/85
ROG:
Where does it say that this is relevant to EC REGULATION 561/2006
Erm, actually in 561/2006, just near the top of the page. But to be honest, i’m not au fait with legal jargon, i do know this is in the bibilography of 561/2006 these judgements are cited as being “affected by case…” One of the other cases that had the same effect is the skills coaches case, this case is applicable in the same way.
ROG:
30 The reply to the second question should therefore be that the term “day”, within the meaning of Regulations Nos 3820/85 and 3821/85, must be understood as equivalent to the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period.
It also refers to a PERIOD of 24-HOURS and not a 24-HOUR PERIOD
Lawyers/law writers/legal boffs are very clever people and the way they word something is very specific.
If they had meant to say within a 24-HOUR PERIOD then that is what would have been written but they did not - they wrote within a PERIOD of 24-HOURS .Ask the question - why did they do it this way? and the answer becomes clear - they have different meanings.
Yeah, you’re right ROG, 24 period might mean something different than period of 24 hours. Can’t think what though, nor do we need to, its already been clarified !!
Taken from theVan Sweiten case
The expression “each period of 24 hours” in Article 8(1) of Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 must be interpreted as meaning any period of 24 hours commencing at th…
Interestingly Van Sweitens defense did try to use a previous ruling, unsucsesfully and that was the Kelly V Schulman (1988) case. That was about working six days, you have time on your hands you can go google it
Re the Van Swieten case:
The point here is that the ruling was clearly and exclusively aimed at the expression “period of 24 hours” as described in article 8.1 of Regulation No 3820/85.
Reading the whole judgement shows this is exclusively to define safe driving practices on a daily basis ensuring that the correct and intended daily rest is taken before starting another shift and has no correlation to the weekly rest requirements which as already pointed out has a different phrase ie six 24 hour periods.
25 It follows that the term “period of 24 hours” referred to in Article 8(1) of Regulation No 3820/85 means a period whose commencement is variable, in that it begins to run at the time of the actual commencement of driving after the end of the previous daily or weekly rest period. Only by adopting that interpretation is it possible to devise a system of alternating periods of driving and rest which preserves road safety and eases drivers’ working conditions.
In the regulations Regulation (EC) 561/2006, article 8.2 states that “Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period”.
The phrase “each period of 24 hours” remains the same as article 8.1 of Regulation No 3820/85 the one the Van Swieten case gave a judgement on.
But article 8.6 of regulation (EC) 561/2006 states that “A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period”.
Why change the phrase to “six 24 hour periods” unless the intention was to separate the meaning from the definition of “each period of 24 hours” as described in the Van Swieten judgement.
tachograph:
Why change the phrase to “six 24 hour periods” unless the intention was to separate the meaning from the definition of “each period of 24 hours” as described in the Van Swieten judgement.
Put much better than I did
tachograph:
Re the Van Swieten case:The point here is that the ruling was clearly and exclusively aimed at the expression “period of 24 hours” as described in article 8.1 of Regulation No 3820/85.
Its somewhat a relief to get this reply as logical discussion and debate here recently has been hard to find
Ok, you are correct and thats how i see it too.I’ve snipped the rest of your reply as i agree with what you say. I did mention the Van Swieten case, but it was a reference point to the Marc Michielsen and Geybels Transport Service NV. case. I’d be interested too on your views on its implications. For anyone who is not minded to read it , then it clarifies that the expresions “day”,“period of 24 hours”, “daily working period” and also the incorporation of daily driving time/periods within.They all mean the same within the context of social legislation relating to transport - “Period of work”, “day” and “end of the working period”. Well daily driving period is defined as differnt than ‘driving period’, but other than that the rest are the same.
Also…
8 A reading of Article 8(1) of Regulation No 3820/85 shows that the expressions “day” and “period of 24 hours” are synonymous. In the first subparagraph of Article 8(1) reference is made to the “period of 24 hours”, whilst in the second the word “day” is used, the subject of both subparagraphs being the same, namely rest periods.
synonymous, i like this word and we’ll use it again a bit further down the post !
tachograph:
Why change the phrase to “six 24 hour periods” unless the intention was to separate the meaning from the definition of “each period of 24 hours” as described in the Van Swieten judgement.
Good question !! If you have a quick read through 5621/2006 then i think you will see more references to 24 hour periods or periods of 24 hours, and will hardly see the words ‘daily’ or ‘day’. 5621/2006 is an upgrading of 3821/85, or ‘harmonization’ may be the correct term to use. The other important thing to know is that it was drafted for ‘clarity’ also !! True there have been changes, and where there has they have/and/are documented.Here.
Now if you have the time and read through them you will see mention of changes, for example to the daily rest from driving…i.e 15 mins first and then 30 mins, this is to stop the abuse of the 1 min drive scenario and then only need 30 mins rest whilst driving for 8 hours 59 mins. And other examples. The one thing you will not find is any mention of intention to change the previously worded .(or intent of )…weekly rest after.‘no more than six daily driving periods’. Indeed just the wording has changed to “no more than six 24 hour periods”. I’m confident that “daily driving periods”,“24 hour periods” or “periods of 24 hours” are indeed synonymous. (that nice word again !!).
You also only need to read through 5621/2006 itself, at the very beginning where it lists “wheras” and read through the proposed changes, or actual changes and you will not see a change to the weekly limit of six driving periods. Only the words, therefore i would conclude that periods of 24 hours, 24 hour periods, daily driving periods are indeed synonymous.
Also it should be noted that the legislation is to improve social conditions relating to Transport (amongst other things), with that in mind do you believe there is an intention to allow a driver to fit in more “driving periods” in between weekly rest periods or an intention (as stated) to allow for a more flexible week?
Ask yourself this question, if DfT/VOSA would not have mentioned a 144 hour cut off period before requiring a weekly rest period would we be having this conversation?
My take on it is this (i think you may know this already ! ) is that DfT/VOSA have taken the literal maximum of six shifts/daily driving periods/periods of 24 hours and put them all one on from the other starting at the same time , working to a theoretical maximum of working time and a minimum of rest time and come up with 144 hours. Not a thought given to anyone who does not start at the same time each day, and who’s actuall working week may be greater than or less than this mystical 144 hours. Ultimateley, if there was a 144 hour limit to take a weekly rest period then i could word it myself easily and avoid any confusion. It would look like this…a worker shall take a weekly rest period no later than 144 hours after ending a weekly rest. Butr if they said it like that then you would be able to squeeze allsports of silly shifts in !! Hang on , thats just like someone said you could do …!!!
ROG:
Put much better than I did
You could have that as a sig ROG, thats if there’s any room !!!
ROG:
Put much better than I did
Mike-C:
You could have that as a sig ROG, thats if there’s any room !!!
I tried writing in ENGLISH but it seems to come out in ROGISH
hi
right sent an email to vosa see how the look on the 24 hour period
this is the email i sent
24hour period
Mon 6 am till 1 pm rest 9 hours
Mon 10 pm till 5 am rest 9 hours
Tues 2 pm till 9 pm rest 9 hours
Wed 6 am till 1 pm rest 11 hours
Thurs 12 am till 7 am rest 11 hours
Thurs 6 pm till 2 am start a daily rest at this point or a weekly restwould that be 6 x 24 hour periods and therefore would have to take a weekly rest at 2 am on Friday
or can i continue to work till 6 am sun as that is 6 x 24 hour periods from 6 am Mon till 6 am Sun
basically what i am try to say is once you have work in a 24 hour period I.E. 1 hour and rested for 11 hours is the one of the 6 x 24 hour periods and you would only have five left
and this is there reply
In the example you’ve given, you start calculating the 24 hour period from when you start on the Monday morning at 06:00. Thereafter, you can continue working until the end of the 6th 24 hour period at 06:00 on the Sunday morning, at which point you could only have a reduced weekly rest period of 24 hours. Your daily rest periods until the end of the working week would obviously need to be 11 hour periods due to the fact that you’ve taken three reduced periods earlier in the week.
I hope this makes sense.
so base on there reply it says that as long as you take your weekly rest by the end of 6 x24 hour you can in fact do as many shifts as you can fit into those 6x24 hours
delboytwo:
so base on there reply it says that as long as you take your weekly rest by the end of 6 x24 hour you can in fact do as many shifts as you can fit into those 6x24 hours
VOSA told us that ages ago 
delboytwo:
In the example you’ve given, you start calculating the 24 hour period from when you start on the Monday morning at 06:00. Thereafter, you can continue working until the end of the 6th 24 hour period at 06:00 on the Sunday morning, at which point you could only have a reduced weekly rest period of 24 hours. Your daily rest periods until the end of the working week would obviously need to be 11 hour periods due to the fact that you’ve taken three reduced periods earlier in the week.
I hope this makes sense.so base on there reply it says that as long as you take your weekly rest by the end of 6 x24 hour you can in fact do as many shifts as you can fit into those 6x24 hours
There goes another one making his own mind up when 24 hour periods begin.