REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006 Article 8 - SORTED?

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
21

delboytwo:
reading the above it still looks like 56 hours and a 90 hour spread

You are falling into the trap of assuming you could only do six shifts in a week, you could do more than that with a weekly rest during the week. Under the old regs it was legally possible to do the following.

Start at 00:00 Monday
Drive 10 hours
9 hours rest
Drive 10 hours
9 hours rest
Drive 9 hours
9 hours rest
Drive 9 hours
11 hours rest
Drive 9 hours
11 hours rest
Drive 9 hours
24-hour weekly rest away from base.
Drive 9 hours
11 hours rest
Continue the 9 drive 11 rest pattern until 24:00 Sunday and all breaks are taken during each shift as required.

By the time the new week started you would have legally done a little over 70 hours driving with a weekly rest taken after no more than six daily driving periods as required. I can’t remember the exact number but I think it was something like 72 or 73 hours. It would be very unlikely to happen to that extreme as it leaves no time for anything else such as fuelling, checks, hooking trailers etc but the point was it was legally possible so a weekly limit of 56 hours was introduced to prevent it. Even allowing say 15 minutes a shift for checks your driving would be still well in excess of 56 hours for the week. I’ve done weeks in the past with more than 56 hours driving in them going to the south of Spain or Italy where for about 3 days in each direction you do little more than drive, break, drive, rest, drive, break drive, rest etc.

As you like the quiz questions here’s one for you. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

Under the old regs what was the maximum driving possible in six shifts?

Under the changed regs what is the maximum driving possible in six shifts?

Not as complicated as Mike’s questions but an easy one for a Monday.

22

Mike-C:
ROG it is permissable for any of the EU member states to apply their own ‘higher minima or lower maxima’. In short this means if the UK want to impose a limit of five days before a weekly rest is to be taken, or you cannot drive more than 8 hours in a day then they can do. I’m not exactly sure how this actually works out in practice,

Hi Mike, whilst that’s correct, a reading of the whole of Article 11 will show that any alteration to the rest periods would only apply nationally. This would then be called “domestic” Regs:

Article 11
A Member State may provide for longer minimum breaks and
rest periods or shorter maximum driving times than those laid
down in Articles 6 to 9 in the case of carriage by road
undertaken wholly within its territory. In so doing, Member
States shall take account of relevant collective or other
agreements between the social partners. Nevertheless, this
Regulation shall remain applicable to drivers engaged in
international transport operations.

Mike-C:
i.e does it have to be laid before the courts for approval or can they just put it in thier guidance leaflets, i don’t know. But i do know they can do it.
What they cannot do most specifically is to breach or extend the EU limits. In the case of 7 charts in six days, if each of those charts is seperated by a daily rest period then it is in actual fact illegal. Not only for the driver to do it, but also for them to allow it.
I wonder has anyone else taken this matter up anywhere?

It wouldn’t need to be put before the courts, because the courts don’t make law, so a set of British domestic hours Regs would have to come from the UK parliament. Such Regs already exist. :smiley:

23

delboytwo:
Hi Mike i think there called it

The Community Drivers’ Hours and Recording
Equipment Regulations 2007 (SI 2007/1819)

Citation, commencement, interpretation and revocation
1.–(1) These Regulations may be cited as the Community Drivers’ Hours and Recording Equipment Regulations 2007 and shall come into force on the seventh day after the day on which they are made.

(2) In these Regulations–

“the Community Drivers’ Hours Regulation” means Regulation (EC) No 561/2006 of the European Parliament and of the Council(4) as amended from time to time;
“the Community Recording Equipment Regulation” means Council Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85(5) as amended from time to time; and
“the 1968 Act” means the Transport Act 1968.

Hi delboytwo,
The Transport Act 1968 has been updated several times, but it does contain the British domestic drivers hours.

You can find the British domestic drivers hours rules on pages 24-26 of GV262, but it needs reading with great care. :wink:

24

delboytwo:
hi mike no not a thing

just like to say some thing about rest in other countries i have found the equivalent of the gv262 in German
and in there book there look at the 6x24 in a very different light cos there consider a 24 hour period as just that
a 24 hour period

i have put a link to it if you look at page 18 you will see a diagram

please note its in German

wko.at/bsv/Fahrerhandbuch.pdf

or and by the way there is no 144 hours that i can see

Hi delboytwo, I’m afraid that book isn’t quite correct mate.
On page 9, they reckon you can only have 3 X reduced daily rests per week and that one is long settled as incorrect. :wink:

Since you’ve mentioned other countries, the original 561/2006 is precisely translated by the EU into all relevant languages. IMHO, it’s a bit pointless to go looking at other EU countries’ idea of 561/2006, because they simply can’t have any ideas of their own, because of this:

Article 29

This Regulation shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.

:open_mouth: What you’ve actually found is the Austrian equivalent of a ‘ROG’ simplification. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

25

dieseldave:

delboytwo:
hi mike no not a thing

just like to say some thing about rest in other countries i have found the equivalent of the gv262 in German
and in there book there look at the 6x24 in a very different light cos there consider a 24 hour period as just that
a 24 hour period

i have put a link to it if you look at page 18 you will see a diagram

please note its in German

wko.at/bsv/Fahrerhandbuch.pdf

or and by the way there is no 144 hours that i can see

Hi delboytwo, I’m afraid that book isn’t quite correct mate.
On page 9, they reckon you can only have 3 X reduced daily rests per week and that one is long settled as incorrect. :wink:

Since you’ve mentioned other countries, the original 561/2006 is precisely translated by the EU into all relevant languages. IMHO, it’s a bit pointless to go looking at other EU countries’ idea of 561/2006, because they simply can’t have any ideas of their own, because of this:

Article 29

This Regulation shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.

:open_mouth: What you’ve actually found is the Austrian equivalent of a ‘ROG’ simplification. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

hi dave

i know that the regs are translated in all EU languages

its just that it was an smiler book as the gv262 and thought it would be interesting how there there interpret the regs like vosa

on an other note i thought wee could do 3 reduced rest between weekly rests

26

Coffeeholic:
Actually they aren’t looking at it in a different light. That diagram is simply showing the latest (spätestens) point a weekly rest must begin and is exactly what it says in the VOSA book.

Hi chaps, I’m not entering the ‘debate’ proper, so my comments relate only to the translation of German…
I have to say that I completely agree with Coffeeholic’s translation of the above.

Coffeeholic:
Translation, You wouldn’t normally translate word for word like this but I’m just showing you how they say the same thing

Eine | wöchentliche | Ruhezeit | beginnt |spätestens | am Ende von | sechs | 24-Stunden-Zeiträumen | nach | Ende | der | letzten | Wochenruhezeit.

A | weekly | rest period | begins | latest | at end of | six | 24-hour rest periods | after | end | the | last | weekly rest period

Again, translation agreed. I also agree that it’s actually not a good idea to translate German ‘word-for-word,’ because of the linguistic complexity of the German language and the widely different grammar rules for sentence construction between German and English.

Coffeeholic:
Ruhezeit and Zeiträumen both mean Rest Period.

However, IMHO this bit isn’t quite correct.
(It seems to contradict the correct translation above.)
Ruhezeit = Rest period, but
Zeitraum = (Time) period
Zeiträumen = (Time) periods (Plural)

delboytwo seems to have missed this from 561/2006 Article 29:

This Regulation shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.

So delboytwo there’s no point in trying to see what other countries say about rest periods, because the intent of 561/2006 is that it’s the same in all EU member states, regardless of language.

:open_mouth: I remember doing something like this before, which also involved the German ‘version’ of drivers’ hours, so maybe we should consider whether delboytwo is the new brit pete. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :wink: :grimacing:

27

delboytwo:
hi dave

i know that the regs are translated in all EU languages

its just that it was an smiler book as the gv262 and thought it would be interesting how there there interpret the regs like vosa

Hi delboytwo, Sorry to be so blunt, but the statute seems perfectly clear to me on the point being discussed.

delboytwo:
on an other note i thought wee could do 3 reduced rest between weekly rests

You can, and I didn’t say otherwise.

The book you quoted from (in a table on page 9) says three reduced rests per week, which is something entirely different. :wink:

Page 9 (the column on the right, ‘new’ Regs)
3 x pro Woche min. 9 h, aber weniger als
11 h,
keine Ausgleichszeiten!!!

TRANSLATION:
3 times per week min 9 hours, but less than 11 hours,
no compensation

…which, as we all know, is incorrect. :grimacing:

I’m not sure of your level of skill in German, but that table on page 9 does a ‘compare and contrast’ between the old (3820/85 now revoked) and the new 561/2006 Regs.

:smiley: Keep up mate, even ROG knows this one… :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

28

dieseldave:

delboytwo:
hi dave

i know that the regs are translated in all EU languages

its just that it was an smiler book as the gv262 and thought it would be interesting how there there interpret the regs like vosa

Hi delboytwo, Sorry to be so blunt, but the statute seems perfectly clear to me on the point being discussed.

delboytwo:
on an other note i thought wee could do 3 reduced rest between weekly rests

You can, and I didn’t say otherwise.

The book you quoted from (in a table on page 9) says three reduced rests per week, which is something entirely different. :wink:

Page 9 (the column on the right, ‘new’ Regs)

3 x pro Woche min. 9 h, aber weniger als
11 h,
keine Ausgleichszeiten!!!

TRANSLATION:
3 times per week min 9 hours, but less than 11 hours,
no compensation

…which, as we all know, is incorrect. :grimacing:

I’m not sure of your level of skill in German, but that table on page 9 does a ‘compare and contrast’ between the old (3820/85 now revoked) and the new 561/2006 Regs.

:smiley: Keep up mate, even ROG knows this one… :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

ok mate see your point

i have a cab waiting be in it in a minute :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: :wink: :blush:

29

dieseldave:
I also agree that it’s actually not a good idea to translate German ‘word-for-word,’ because of the linguistic complexity of the German language and the widely different grammar rules for sentence construction between German and English.

Which shows itself when my ‘translation’ comes out as after end the last weekly rest period . :stuck_out_tongue: I only translated it directly so I wouldn’t be putting my interpretation on the German words.

dieseldave:

Coffeeholic:
Ruhezeit and Zeiträumen both mean Rest Period.

However, IMHO this bit isn’t quite correct.
(It seems to contradict the correct translation above.)
Ruhezeit = Rest period, but
Zeitraum = (Time) period
Zeiträumen = (Time) periods (Plural)

And I did indeed translate the plural Zeiträumen into the plural rest periods. :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: What I should have made clearer above was I meant both words, either in their singular or plural form, could be used equally to mean Rest Period(s).

Did you see what they say about WTD breaks? Bit different from us, page 21.

30

Coffeeholic:

dieseldave:
I also agree that it’s actually not a good idea to translate German ‘word-for-word,’ because of the linguistic complexity of the German language and the widely different grammar rules for sentence construction between German and English.

Which shows itself when my ‘translation’ comes out as after end the last weekly rest period . :stuck_out_tongue: I only translated it directly so I wouldn’t be putting my interpretation on the German words.

dieseldave:

Coffeeholic:
Ruhezeit and Zeiträumen both mean Rest Period.

However, IMHO this bit isn’t quite correct.
(It seems to contradict the correct translation above.)
Ruhezeit = Rest period, but
Zeitraum = (Time) period
Zeiträumen = (Time) periods (Plural)

And I did indeed translate the plural Zeiträumen into the plural rest periods. :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: What I should have made clearer above was I meant both words, either in their singular or plural form, could be used equally to mean Rest Period(s).

Listen if none of us can agree on what 'period of 24 hours ’ means in English then i think we best leave the German interpretations alone !!! :smiley:

31

delboytwo:
its just that it was an smiler book as the gv262 and thought it would be interesting how there there interpret the regs like vosa

That German language version you found although similar to the VOSA publication isn’t actually published by the Austrian version of VOSA. Still an interesting read to see how they describe things.

32

Mike-C:
Listen if none of us can agree on what 'period of 24 hours ’ means in English then i think we best leave the German interpretations alone !!! :smiley:

Well according to that book it means exactly the same as it does in English. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

33

Mike-C
Listen if none of us can agree on what 'period of 24 hours ’ means in English then i think we best leave the German interpretations alone !!! :smiley:

nice one there :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

34

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
its just that it was an smiler book as the gv262 and thought it would be interesting how there there interpret the regs like vosa

That German language version you found although similar to the VOSA publication isn’t actually published by the Austrian version of VOSA. Still an interesting read to see how they describe things.

i thought it would be an interesting read just to see hoqw the look at it :smiley: :laughing:

35

Mike-C:
if none of us can agree on what 'period of 24 hours ’ means

What would you like it to mean :question:

36

ROG:

Mike-C:
if none of us can agree on what 'period of 24 hours ’ means

What would you like it to mean :question:

I don’t mind what it means, but i prefer to stick with the official version !!

The term “day”, within the meaning of Council Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 of 20 December 1985 on the harmonization of certain social legislation relating to road transport, and of Regulation No 3821/85, must be understood as equivalent to the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period

And thats in plain English !!! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

37

“period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period

OK, it STARTS when the tachograph is activated - fine :slight_smile:
Still does not define the actual term “period of 24 hours” does it mean exactly 24 hours, 24 single hours, 1 day, a seventh of a week etc
OR
Does it mean that it can be less than exactly 24 hours, 24 single hours, 1 day, a seventh of a week etc which does not seem to make sense, if it did then one week could be less than 7 full days etc - actually, we could make up our own calender - I’ve always wanted 10 hours in a day and 100 hours in a week - so much easier to do mathematically :wink: :laughing:

38

ROG:

“period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period

OK, it STARTS when the tachograph is activated - fine :slight_smile:
Still does not define the actual term “period of 24 hours” does it mean exactly 24 hours, 24 single hours, 1 day, a seventh of a week etc
OR
Does it mean that it can be less than exactly 24 hours, 24 single hours, 1 day, a seventh of a week etc which does not seem to make sense, if it did then one week could be less than 7 full days etc - actually, we could make up our own calender - I’ve always wanted 10 hours in a day and 100 hours in a week - so much easier to do mathematically :wink: :laughing:

Rog

i have a simple question for you :wink:

if the 24 hour period was as you say,

it mean exactly 24 hours, 24 single hours, 1 day, a seventh of a week etc

it would in fact be in the regs would it not that’s why there say within

so if you starterd work at 6 am and worked for 2 hour and then went home you would still have to take a rest, cos you started worked within a 24 hour period, it does not matter how long a 24 hour period is it’s the fact that it is within a 24 hour period ather a rest or weekly rest

39

ROG:

“period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period

OK, it STARTS when the tachograph is activated - fine :slight_smile:

Therefore the next one will start the next time the tachograph is activated following a rest period, and the one after that and the one…

ROG:
Still does not define the actual term “period of 24 hours”

Well it can’t really can it? It can’t define it by length, how can anyone know how long it will be between a tachograph being activated following a rest period and the next time it is activated following a rest period? Due to the nature of the regulations and their inbuilt flexibility it’s a, err, well, a flexible thing. :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

Could be less than 24 hours
Activate tacho after weekly rest at 06:00.
10-hour shift.
9-hour rest.
Activate tacho after daily rest at 01:00 and start new 24-hour period. 19-hour 24-hour period

Could be exactly 24 hours
Activate tacho after weekly rest at 06:00.
13-hour shift.
11-hour rest.
Activate tacho after daily rest at 06:00 and start new 24-hour period. 24-hour 24-hour period

Could be more than 24 hours
Activate tacho after weekly rest at 06:00.
15-hour shift.
15-hour rest.
Activate tacho after daily rest at 12:00 and start new 24-hour period. 30-hour 24-hour period.

The rule makers cannot therefore define it by length so they keep it simple and say a new 24-hour period starts each time you resume after a rest period and after six new ones thou shalt rest! Just to be on the safe side though, in case you have too many of those 30-hour 24-hour periods, :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: they throw in a cut off point of 6x24 actual hours, or as it’s fast becoming know ‘The 144’. :stuck_out_tongue:

Coffeeholic:

The rule makers cannot therefore define it by length

But in fact they actually do if you read it. :stuck_out_tongue:

40

This one rumbles on and on…

Cracking debate chaps, but I’m gonna miss the rest of this one due to the need to go to work. :frowning:

This time, I already know that I’ll be internetless for the duration, so I might pop back in at the weekend to do a body-count and offer counselling to the survivors. :grimacing:

:bulb: ROG and delboytwo should both be nominated for OBEs for services to internet forums page-view figures. :laughing: :laughing: