Arrive at work, 20 mins other work. Drive 3 hours, 5 mins other work.
Now comes the bit that loses me.
I am getting a lift back to depot in another truck, make the mistake of putting my card into slot 2.
POA 3 hours, 5 mins other work.
Is this an infringement? I thought when I put the card in it would be counted as double manning so the first 45 mins of POA would be counted as break, but now realise that this is not so as the wagon I joined had also done 3 hours previously with the same bloke that drove me back.
My question is, how is the POA categorised? It is not other work or driving but also not counted as break under the RTD so is it counted as nothing? If you look at that shift it looks 6 hrs 25 mins long (which would require 30 mins break) but I have only done 3hrs 25 mins work that is recognised in the RTD.
P.S.
Can anyone explain why the rules are so ■■■■■■■ complicated?
It is showing up as an infringement on my record but if it is not legally counted as one I’d love to be able to write it off.
schrodingers cat:
Arrive at work, 20 mins other work. Drive 3 hours, 5 mins other work.
Now comes the bit that loses me.
I am getting a lift back to depot in another truck, make the mistake of putting my card into slot 2.
POA 3 hours, 5 mins other work.
Is this an infringement? I thought when I put the card in it would be counted as double manning so the first 45 mins of POA would be counted as break, but now realise that this is not so as the wagon I joined had also done 3 hours previously with the same bloke that drove me back.
My question is, how is the POA categorised? It is not other work or driving but also not counted as break under the RTD so is it counted as nothing? If you look at that shift it looks 6 hrs 25 mins long (which would require 30 mins break) but I have only done 3hrs 25 mins work that is recognised in the RTD.
POA is categorised as POA
POA is a period of availability, it’s not working time, it cannot be rest, and it cannot be break except when multi-manning.
I make the shift 6 hours 30 minutes of which 3 hours was POA.
That leaves 3 hours 30 minutes working time, so if that’s your entire shift it does not warrant an infringement for lack of breaks.
Just to further complicate matters, you could only use double-manning rules if the other bloke had picked you up within an hour of him starting his shift.
You’re ok. The time spent in the truck as a passenger will be classed as break. But it is part of your duty time.
However, Although not connected directly to the example you’ve given. If you was a passenger in the truck for say 9 hours, It won’t be classed as rest. This is something that has tripped up a few that double man.
Harry Monk:
Just to further complicate matters, you could only use double-manning rules if the other bloke had picked you up within an hour of him starting his shift.
is that not just the double manning shift length? wouldn’t the first 45 of poa count as break despite not starting within the hour?
45 minutes of POA will reset the 4.5 hour counter on the digicard, but it actually doesn’t reset it legally.
In other words, if you did 3 hours driving, 3 hours POA and another 3 hours driving you’d also end up being over the “4.5 hours without a break” infringement, which is more serious than the minor headline at the top of this post.
Winseer:
“Worked 6 hours straight without a break”.
45 minutes of POA will reset the 4.5 hour counter on the digicard, but it actually doesn’t reset it legally.
In other words, if you did 3 hours driving, 3 hours POA and another 3 hours driving you’d also end up being over the “4.5 hours without a break” infringement, which is more serious than the minor headline at the top of this post.
When i got stopped by the vosa crew, he asked me about the 1 1/2 hrs poa i had booked in the morning that day. I explained that i had arrived early to be first in the cue and there was that amount of time before they opened. He said fine just wanted you to tell me why, and then added that they now count the first 45mins of poa as break!!! Now that can straight from the guy checking my cards
Winseer:
“Worked 6 hours straight without a break”.
45 minutes of POA will reset the 4.5 hour counter on the digicard, but it actually doesn’t reset it legally.
In other words, if you did 3 hours driving, 3 hours POA and another 3 hours driving you’d also end up being over the “4.5 hours without a break” infringement, which is more serious than the minor headline at the top of this post.
but he didn’t do that
According to (EC) 561/2006 Guidance Note 2 the first 45 minutes of POA will be counted as break if there are two drivers available for driving in the vehicle, according to VOSAs boklet GV262 the first 45 minutes of POA will count as break for the second driver when multi-manning,
I would have thought it’s probably fair to assume that the phrase in GV262 is misleading given that the EU guide doesn’t seem to restrict it to multi-manning.
When a second crew member is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not
actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that
crew member’s ‘period of availability’ can be regarded as ‘break’.
No, just saying. If the run back with the other guy is less than 2hr55m then it’s not going to throw up that minor “worked pver 6 hours straight” infringement at digi download check stage anyway.
45+ mins of POA however WILL apparently reset the 4.5hour counter, but NOT count as a valid break, which could lead to the more serious “driving over 4.5 hours without a break” infringement in the way I described above. This infringement of course will not become apparent until download stage either.
Since VOSA will get their own hands on that data by downloading it, they’ll spot it straight away, and there will likely be a fine for the 4.5hour infringement, but most likely only a ticking off for the minor WTD infringement.
Hehe. If I’m sitting in the passenger seat, I won’t be feeling very well “rested” unless I’m having something to eat, or am asleep.
White knuckling my seat because I keep getting jerked against the seatbelt from a load of harsh braking however, and I’m going to be insisting upon a “proper” break seperate from the vehicle.
If you jump to counting some POA as break, even if entitled to do it, all that is going to happen is foregoing a seperate break you might have otherwise been able to take parked up later on… Some firms do get funny if their drivers book over an hour of POA and then attempt to park up for a 45 on top of that, when it is no longer legally required of them.
The law is supposed to be there for protection - not for firms to squeeze more wheel turning hours out of their drivers. Use of best judgement would seem to make more sense.
Winseer:
No, just saying. If the run back with the other guy is less than 2hr55m then it’s not going to throw up that minor “worked pver 6 hours straight” infringement at digi download check stage anyway.
45+ mins of POA however WILL apparently reset the 4.5hour counter, but NOT count as a valid break, which could lead to the more serious “driving over 4.5 hours without a break” infringement in the way I described above. This infringement of course will not become apparent until download stage either.
Since VOSA will get their own hands on that data by downloading it, they’ll spot it straight away, and there will likely be a fine for the 4.5hour infringement, but most likely only a ticking off for the minor WTD infringement.
I think you’re misunderstanding this, the digital tachograph will wrongly reset the driving clock after 45 minutes, but POA does not count as driving as you seem to be suggesting.
The OP has only done 3 hours driving during the shift so cannot possibly get an infringement for insufficient driving break, well not unless you’ve been sharing your wacky backy with his TM anyway
What has been said already but I’ve been on a tacho çourse, plus the tacho part of the dcpc (different companies) and both have instructed against using POA. They say if its a break, use break, if not, other work. I’ve been told the same at VOSA check sites. But then they all seem to interpret the rules differently…
I never use poa but then again if I am waiting for instructions I’m never told how long I have to wait in advance, so POA not relevant to me
No no, I wasn’t suggesting that “6 hours without a break” was a driving hours infringement, but a WTD one.
If you start duty at 6am, don’t turn a key in the ignition until 11:50, and then go down the road 30 minutes, then you’ll get this infringement. It’s got nothing to do with your driving hours. It’s that you have not booked a 45 minute break in starting before 11:59.
Winseer:
No no, I wasn’t suggesting that “6 hours without a break” was a driving hours infringement, but a WTD one.
If you start duty at 6am, don’t turn a key in the ignition until 11:50, and then go down the road 30 minutes, then you’ll get this infringement. It’s got nothing to do with your driving hours. It’s that you have not booked a 45 minute break in starting before 11:59.
eh??
what would you be doing between 6 and 11 50?
potentially a 15 minute break depending on what you’d been doing, but not a 45
Exactly. Most people don’t bother booking a break when they’ve not even got behind a wheel on that shift yet.
For whatever reason though, it does seem to flag these WTD infringements up nonetheless.
I make a point of manually entering a break, should I be in the proverbial position of “sticking a digicard in at 11:50” as in the above scenario.
Sticking 06:00 to Card entry time 11:50 as “other work” is a no no. It’s upto us to make sure we take our 15 minute minimum already.
Yes, of course you wouldn’t need to take a 45 unless you wanted to reset the 4.5 clock, but seeing as it’s still zero, you’d not need to.
This tickles me about VOSA saying the first 45 mins count as break! multi manning yes not on your own it resets it on poa after 45, because EVERYONE ELSE IN EUROPE USES THAT SYMBOL FOR BREAK! so when they pull Johnny Foreigner every five mins for driving in a straight line, they can’t show break as they put it on rest, WHILST FAST ASLEEP! VOSA are making up the rules as they go along then, OR we as a nation need to abolish poa! nothing to do with " oh the digi has software which is 130lloxed " or that’s not right MMTM
If you get caught by VOSA, you’ll get Donald ducked as you weren’t picked up in the first hour AND you weren’t multi manning either! why did you put you Digi in slot 2 FFS!
multi manning yes 
it resets it on poa after 45, because EVERYONE ELSE IN EUROPE USES THAT SYMBOL FOR BREAK! 