hello all
now that we have all got our CPC card and all of a sudden we are really professional drivers (held my hgv for 25 yrs),do you not feel that we should be campaigning for professional wages,after all electricians,plumbers all have a card to say they are qualified professionals and charge accordingly.why are firms and agencies still wanting to pay less than a shelf stacker or forkie.The question i ask is…is this due to agencies driving down hourly rates for drivers when we quite clearly know firms are paying top dollar to agencies for our services .eg an agency will charge a company £15 per hr for a drivers services the driver will be paid £8 or maybe a little bit more, now i understand if a company only needs temp cover a week or two and i do beleive that agencies are good for a company to scope and suss out potential employers from the driver they take on for the temperary service, but for an agency to have a driver in a firm for months even yrs baffles me .why cant firms start paying £10 -£12 per hr direct to drivers and employ them,instead the firm want to take you on but maybe pay a couple of pence more than they are paying the driver as an agency driver - I beleive they get away with this cos the driver after working for them for maybe 2 years, accepts the agency rate as the going rate. (:shock: .I know loads of drivers working for big companies thru agencies who have been there 18-24 months, working the days they want and cant understand why these companies wont give them the rota they are doing and more pay to have them as permanent employees, surely this is a win/win situation for both parties, the firm reduce their wage bill as they are not paying the agency and the driver earns better money and would be more committed and happy.
Speaking to many drivers, they are unhappy with their hourly rate of pay and have to work up to 15hrs each day to earn a decent weeks wage. It would be unthinkable for an office worker to arrive at work at 8am, to be told by the manager that they were expected to stay in work until 11pm and that there was a possibility that they would have to sleep in the office, guarding the office equipment and would be paid an extra £20 for this (at £2 ish per hour).
To earn mimimum wage or just above in any other industry costs nothing - to earn the same wages as a driver costs £2k to get your licence and 3 years driving experience to move up to HGV and £300 to gain your CPC. There are also the added costs of medicals and replacement driver cards - not to mention the possible fines for finishing your break 1 minute early and incurring an infringement which VOSA can pick up on. This is dependant on the mood and interpretation of the rules by the VOSA examiner!!
I honestly dont know the answer to this question and certainly dont feel like a professional, in my previous employement (20+yrs) I was treated and paid well and was respected. Since being made redundant and joining an agency, I have noticed a big difference. I now work 15 more hrs per week for 1/3 less wages - with no benefits. People seem to think that they can speak to you how they like and you are held to ransom by yard men and forkies, who go on their break as you pull onto a bay - they seem to think that we can sit around all day and wait for them to unload at their leisure.
I know what I have written may seem contraversial and there will be some of you out there still in decent jobs, paying decent pay, but for the majority of men I am speaking to, these jobs are few and far between, with the ones left going all the time - I am constatly hearing of firms making men redundant and then rewording job descriptions and bringing people back to do the same work for half the money. Firms are paying decent money for drivers, it’s just that the agency’s are in the middle and taking half of the money for doing very little.
In my experience, around the North east, it’s the transport companies that pay the low wages not the agencies. They consistently pay £1.50 ph above what you can make at some of the more well established companies. Take Port of Tyne for instance, they offer £7.99ph to their full time day shift class 1 drivers, I can get £9.50 going in through agency. Ramage were paying £8.60 ph for nightshift 4 on 4 off, £8 ph tramping & class 2 on minimum wage. The nightshift has recently gone up to £9ph after they lost a load of drivers. I’ve been offered £11 ph to go in. Why would you want to work for them full time?
Supply and demand fella.
Agencies just speed up the change in wages as the supply and demand ratio changes. They force up in the upturn as much as they drive down in the downturn.
If you want better wages you need to make it more restrictive to become and remain a hgv driver. So campaign for the Dcpc to become tested and harder, solong as you think you’d pass!
I’ve said more than once on this board in the past that it is the lax insurance industry that I believe is to blame for the huge disparities in agency pay rates available.
For an example of this action, I’ll put it like this:
Let’s say 10 different agencies supply drivers to 10 different yards - with some overlap as to which client yards are on which agencies books. The best agency supplies to 8 of the 10 yards, the worst agency supplies to all 10 - but as a “sub”. - eg. only gets shifts given to them by the other agencies who can’t “fill a shift”.
All 10 agencies charge the yard say, £18ph. The pay the drivers get varies from £8.50ph to £14.75ph however! - If one sticks to PAYE it’s even worst - £6.50ph to £12ph becomes the range.
Now, when applying to an agency - one driver like yourself might have held their licence for 25 years, and has only 3 points say. There will be a few drivers here and there who’ve held it longer, and have a totally clean licence - but on the whole MOST drivers are going to be around the 10-12 years mark, and have SIX points rather than 3.
The agency awash with work - pays “one” of the highest, but not actually the highest. They have insurance in place in case one of their drivers smashes the kit up. They’ll place drivers of both ranges of aptitude I’ve suggested above. I refer to this as the “six points OK” agencies, and represent, imho, the bulk of agencies out there.
The “sub” agency supplying to all 10 yards will get more LAST MINUTE shifts to cover, and might even pay a touch more than all the other agencies - but you’ll suffer for that in the inconvienience of “not being able to plan a life around your work properly”.
The drivers who can’t get on the books of an agency, will filter down to the weakest in the pile - only supplying to some of the yards, only paying £8.50ph, etc. They know you’ll go there because you have got less than 2 years experience, have MORE than six points on your licence, have work that’s miles and miles away, and don’t actually have any clients on their books that pay more allowing them to afford a decent hourly rate to the driver. Cut-throat competition.
The weakest agencies make the most money therefore out of the BEST drivers who’ve unwittingly fallen into THEIR laps. They’ll give such drivers as much work as they possibly can - since they are effectively making a HUGE margin on such work given! The driver, thinks they are being flattered - and doesn’t move elsewhere, never aware it seems that there are much better places to work than this agency who pays crap, gives you work miles away, always calls you last minute, but never seems to be short of work!
If the INSURANCE INDUSTRY made it harder to employ less than A1 drivers let’s say - those that remain, would see a huge ramping up in pay, and the weaker agencies would fold - from lack of drivers.
There’s no shortage of drivers right now - only a shortage of GOOD ones that’ll work for less than top dollar. 
Scream and shout about Drivers wages until the cows come home,until Drivers learn to unite together and stop driving for peanuts just so they get a new motor and Transport Companies stop cutting each others throats,you will always be screaming and shouting.
lurkio:
eg an agency will charge a company £15 per hr for a drivers services the driver will be paid £8 or maybe a little bit more
There speaks someone who knows nothing about how much it costs to employ someone. Whatever you get paid it costs the employer roughly 25% on top in employers NI and holiday pay.
The agency also have to pay you the next week whereas it may be 3 months before they see the money from the client. They also have their offices to run, the sales staff travel costs to pay. These things are not free. The Driver Hire I used to work for had running costs of £250k a year and that had just three staff.
why cant firms start paying £10 -£12 per hr direct to drivers and employ them,instead the firm want to take you on but maybe pay a couple of pence more than they are paying the driver as an agency driver
Don’t know where you are but most firms pay their drivers LESS than agency to the point that many places I’ve gone to on agency my basic rate has been that companies overtime rate for their employed drivers. Very few firms pay more than agency.
Since being made redundant and joining an agency, I have noticed a big difference. I now work 15 more hrs per week for 1/3 less wages - with no benefits.
Thats a situation entirely of your own making. Most agency drivers I know, myself included, have seen quite a notable wage increase. In Hull its typically been £1.50-£2/hr over the last 6 months.
Hi,
Theres some really good stuff on here about this subject, but the common denominator has to be that the drivers are their own worst enemy, obviously we don’t mention WHO we actually work for, but I bet we all have instances in our employment that match, my employer is not the best payer by far, however they have a fantastic policy ( unwritten of course) some lads don’t like London so they never get given it, some don’t like early starts so they don’t get them,same with some not liking weekend work, or more than 1 night out at a time, needless to say nobody leaves full stop. but pay is crap.
What they don’t realise is if they stood together instead of divided, they would get all they wanted and a decent wage, if drivers do not take advantage of this shortage, mainly due to CPC, but also being driven by all the ex miners/steelmen drivers retiring, the industry will be cheapskate for ever, this is a fantastic opportunity to stand up and DEMAND better conditions and pay, but will we, not a chance.
martin
martin m:
Hi,
Theres some really good stuff on here about this subject, but the common denominator has to be that the drivers are their own worst enemy, obviously we don’t mention WHO we actually work for, but I bet we all have instances in our employment that match, my employer is not the best payer by far, however they have a fantastic policy ( unwritten of course) some lads don’t like London so they never get given it, some don’t like early starts so they don’t get them,same with some not liking weekend work, or more than 1 night out at a time, needless to say nobody leaves full stop. but pay is crap.
What they don’t realise is if they stood together instead of divided, they would get all they wanted and a decent wage, if drivers do not take advantage of this shortage, mainly due to CPC, but also being driven by all the ex miners/steelmen drivers retiring, the industry will be cheapskate for ever, this is a fantastic opportunity to stand up and DEMAND better conditions and pay, but will we, not a chance.
martin
martin m
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martin m:
Hi,
Theres some really good stuff on here about this subject, but the common denominator has to be that the drivers are their own worst enemy, obviously we don’t mention WHO we actually work for, but I bet we all have instances in our employment that match, my employer is not the best payer by far, however they have a fantastic policy ( unwritten of course) some lads don’t like London so they never get given it, some don’t like early starts so they don’t get them,same with some not liking weekend work, or more than 1 night out at a time, needless to say nobody leaves full stop. but pay is crap.
What they don’t realise is if they stood together instead of divided, they would get all they wanted and a decent wage, if drivers do not take advantage of this shortage, mainly due to CPC, but also being driven by all the ex miners/steelmen drivers retiring, the industry will be cheapskate for ever, this is a fantastic opportunity to stand up and DEMAND better conditions and pay, but will we, not a chance.
martin
So you’re posting here that it’s everyone else’s fault. What’s stopping you from making a stand and leaving for a better paid job? How do you expect things to improve if you’re not prepared to get up off your fat arse and show them how it’s done, or - let me guess - you’re just like all the others who wants to sit back and let everyone else do the hard work and you reap their rewards?
That ^ is real the reason why nothing will ever change and no amount of whining about it on internet forums will make any difference. You deserve the pathetic pay you get.
It’s not easy for drivers to “stand together” in some kind of Union format these days.
Unions have lost a lot of power over the past 3 decades. You can be sure that any move to bring more power to any union, or set of workers aiming to form one - will be met with resistance all the way by the Conservatives, traditionally the enemy of employee rights in any shape or form. Low pay is only the start of it. I’m not against Zero Hours contracts - IF one gets top dollar to make up for the “insecurity” of not having a full time job with rights that used to go with such work. I’d say that these days, the zero hours worker and the full timer are getting closer rather than further apart in pay & conditions… 
Good point from LHD.He speaks the truth.
It is like the muppets in Rdc waiting rooms talking Betty Bollox on how they will change the world and missed the Herald of Free Enterprise by two minutes.
They were on the balcony on the Iranian hostage siege and drove their Erf Eaton Twin Splitter to get there on time.
There are so many idiots driving lorries.
Hi senior driver.
Im sorry I seem to have upset you, I didn’t realise that im not allowed an opinion and that you guys who have wrote 6hundred and odd post have the right to abuse the newbies, can you tell me in my post where I blame anyone else, I blame drivers of which I am one, and I am as guilty as all the others, who do I blame ? the employer that’s who.
As for anyone with a big fat arse that’s probably you, sat in front of a computer playing the big guy.
Winseer:
It’s not easy for drivers to “stand together” in some kind of Union format these days.
Unions have lost a lot of power over the past 3 decades. You can be sure that any move to bring more power to any union, or set of workers aiming to form one - will be met with resistance all the way by the Conservatives, traditionally the enemy of employee rights in any shape or form. Low pay is only the start of it. I’m not against Zero Hours contracts - IF one gets top dollar to make up for the “insecurity” of not having a full time job with rights that used to go with such work. I’d say that these days, the zero hours worker and the full timer are getting closer rather than further apart in pay & conditions…
You don’t need any unions. Look at how many drivers have have set up on their own. Look at how the vast majority of employers are screaming out for full time PAYE drivers? See the connection? PAYE pay rates will fix themselves if drivers stop being so lazy and go and better their OWN lot. ■■■■ everyone else, just look after yourself and by sheer numbers the tide will turn, as it is slowing starting to do already.
By and large the driving industry has never been in such a great position where you can go into so many agencies and smaller companies and pretty much name your rate. Use it (the opportunity) or lose it.
martin m:
Hi senior driver.
Im sorry I seem to have upset you, I didn’t realise that im not allowed an opinion and that you guys who have wrote 6hundred and odd post have the right to abuse the newbies, can you tell me in my post where I blame anyone else, I blame drivers of which I am one, and I am as guilty as all the others, who do I blame ? the employer that’s who.
As for anyone with a big fat arse that’s probably you, sat in front of a computer playing the big guy.
Look at it from the other side. If you were the company owner and you had a bunch of drivers quite happy to work for minimum wage, would you be digging in your pocket offering them more? Of course you wouldn’t. I believe the appropriate word for drivers like you is “mug” (no offence). It’s the lazy and complacent drivers such as yourself that are the root cause of the problems that you’re crying about.
Left hand down!:
Look at how many drivers have have set up on their own. Look at how the vast majority of employers are screaming out for full time PAYE drivers? See the connection?
Happened at Reed Boardall 15 years ago. A load of drivers left the week Stobart opened up at Sherburn in Elmet. A drivers committee ended up being formed and both the job and pay got considerably better in a very short period of time.
Keedwells in Hull have just apparently seen a load of drivers walk for a better paid job - at Longs of Leeds. Given Longs is hardly known as a decent payer in Hull one can only wonder just how crap the pay was at Keedwells. When Keedwells can’t fill the vacancies which they won’t then their only option is to up the money.
some good pointers on here and my original post was to get some feedback from likeminded drivers who feel that we should be on better rates of pay .my current wages are a lot better than a lot of drivers but feel not just me but every hardworking committed hgv driver in this country gets a wage and rate of pay that warrants what we do and why we seem to be paid less than lesser qualified jobs .by the way i hold fork truck licence adr ,dont come back with well drive a flt i chose hgv because drivers were on proper money and the industry now relies on agency and low pay and companies seem to be getting our hard graft for a song.im alright jack unfortunately is not my philosophy and maybe thats why we cant stick together and improve our industry
Well I just don’t know how you come to the conclusion that agencies=low pay where pretty much everywhere I’ve looked and anyone you speak to say agencies are all paying premium money way above what employers are.
If you’re getting paid peanuts its because you continue to CHOOSE to work for people who pay peanuts. Everyone else is currently jumping ship and going to work for people who pay better because there’s the work out there to do this. Its not a case of “I’m alright Jack” attitudes but a realisation amongst large numbers of drivers that hauliers who don’t pay decent money have no intention of changing so the only way to improve things with them is to vote with your feet and leave.
You can tell you have been a full time employee for so long because you are clearly out of touch with how the modern day agencies and drivers operate. Not knocking you but feel you could have done more research before posting your whine.
Companies will not offer full time drivers rates of say £11 per hour because they then have to pay holiday pay, company national insurance, uniform and other various costs so by the end of it al lit probably equates to around £20 per hour per employee hence using agencies is far more cost effective because they pay one single rate per hour and that is all.
You are seriously misinformed about the agency profit margins. I know for a fact that most agencies make around £1.30 per hour on their self employed drivers. Obviously they will pay their paye drivers less because again, the agency has to account for holiday pay and company NI etc.
The problem her is that drivers tend to accept what they are told they are worth, companies will pay the very minimum that they can get away with. The drivers have no ambition or drive to improve themselves or their conditions and no amount of bleating on here with alter the fact. What you have to do here is be unique and inventive. You need to look at the opportunities, who offers the easiest work with the most hours and who will pay the rate that you demand?
Yes being a paye driver will always have its limits where earnings are concerned but should you dare to take the self employed route in todays market you can do pretty bloody well for yourself and all the other drivers will call you a ■■■■■■■■■■■ should you tell them what you earn.
Forget all that though and as mentioned above, look after number one and you might be surprised what you can earn .
Forgive me if I’m wrong but from your post it sounds like you have gone on to agency work fairly recently?
Employers were happy to keep using agency for years for one reason only. Compared to full time PAYE employees, we were cheap. Then the Agency Worker Directive came in and for a lot of us, the only route to employment was going self employed/LTD. Employers wouldn’t touch us with a barge pole for permanent work and why would they? Same pay and conditions as one of their own on PAYE. No chance. If a business needs to make cuts or more profit, then reducing labour costs is one of the easiest ways. We had to put up with it because there was a recession on and regular work was scarce. I did a job on agency that I hated but it was a port in a storm and then I moved on. No doubt some drivers left the industry altogether.
I don’t know the answer as to why employers don’t hire direct. Could be that it may be seen as tax avoidance? If you are hiring direct then why not employ on PAYE. Someone else here may know the answer to that.
I agree drivers have been underpaid for years but the majority of working people in the uk have also been through it too. Many, if they managed to hold on to their jobs, haven’t had a wage rise in years. Wages were stagnant and declining even before the recession. We’re not special. We’re the same as everybody else, worker drones, cogs, whatever you may like to call it. Yes, we could bring the country to a standstill, but so could may other industries, lets say gas, electric, water, warehouses, must be a few more.
LHD is right in what he says. Employers aren’t going to give a decent pay rise if they don’t have too. We’re going to have to do it as individuals. This industry will never stick together. Drivers need to vote with their feet and move on,the opportunities are there.
A lot of us aren’t “just agency drivers” anymore, we are small businesses with the Revenue and Companies house treating us exactly like any othr business. No excuses. So I’m a professional driver and a small business. Please forgive me if my attitude comes across as “I’m alright jack” but I have a business to run.
“Choosing” to work for an agency that pays peanuts - that entices people in, because they’ll crowd the unwitting driver out with work.
There are too many who think that “getting loads of work” makes the agency in question “the dogs.”
Dunno about everyone else, but I’ve always wanted to earn as much as possible for as few shifts at work as possible.
To me, taking home £350 for 3 shifts is better than taking home £500 for 6. Then you’ve gotta take off double the commute cost for the £500 as well.
6 shifts work in other words, isn’t the high number it looks… Stop looking at bottom/top lines, and look at the HOURS (including the commute) you put in instead. 