The French and Germans just follow the rules when it suits them.
Look at transport how the french have come up with a law saying drivers can’t have there 45 hour rest in the truck and any truck driver on German soil has to be paid at least the national minimum wage while in the fatherland.
I’m sure that’s against the principle of the single market but they are doing it.
A fact I found interesting was that China produced more steel last year alone than the UK has in our ENTIRE HISTORY of making steel! The UK steel industry is a tiny minnow now. If we prop it up it’ll just be another graveyard for taxpayers money.
kr79:
The French and Germans just follow the rules when it suits them.
Look at transport how the french have come up with a law saying drivers can’t have there 45 hour rest in the truck and any truck driver on German soil has to be paid at least the national minimum wage while in the fatherland.
I’m sure that’s against the principle of the single market but they are doing it.
The French didn’t come up with that law, they just decided to interpret EU legislation in a dubious fashion.
switchlogic:
A fact I found interesting was that China produced more steel last year alone than the UK has in our ENTIRE HISTORY of making steel! The UK steel industry is a tiny minnow now. If we prop it up it’ll just be another graveyard for taxpayers money.
It would be interesting to see the exact figures to back that.Although you’ve obviously missed the issue of quality v quantity.
Meanwhile your answer to an obvious attempt by China to wage economic warfare on us should be surrender to it by closing our industry down. 
Rather than fight it by telling the ships that are bringing it here to turn around and take it back.
As it stands the Germans are producing more now than we did in 1972 and they obviously haven’t sold out their industry to China’s Indian allies to close down.Nor are we hearing any whingeing from German producers that they ‘can’t compete’.On that note we don’t need to ‘prop it up’ we just need to give it the same chance as Germany gives its industry.The difference being that in the absence of German Nationalist buying habits here we have to enforce the idea of buying British by way of trade barriers.
China produced 790 million tonnes of steel last year. We produced…12 million. As for China waging economic warfare on us! I doubt they give us much of a thought to be honest! You may not like it Carryfast but we simply aren’t the world power we were, I doubt China is overly concerned what we do.
switchlogic:
China produced 790 million tonnes of steel last year. We produced…12 million. As for China waging economic warfare on us! I doubt they give us much of a thought to be honest! You may not like it Carryfast but we simply aren’t the world power we were, I doubt China is overly concerned what we do.
As I said quality v quantity and that figure obviously doesn’t relate to our entire historic production.As for China’s over capacity if they’re not out to wage economic warfare then why over produce to such a level and the try to dump it on the developed western economies ?.As for tonnage we produced around 30 million t in 1972 the Germans produced over 40 million last year.So what changed and how do you account for the difference between UK and German production.Here’s a clue it isn’t because UK production is running behind UK demand and the Germans obviously don’t seem to be suffering from Chinese competition.
Carryfast:
switchlogic:
A fact I found interesting was that China produced more steel last year alone than the UK has in our ENTIRE HISTORY of making steel! The UK steel industry is a tiny minnow now. If we prop it up it’ll just be another graveyard for taxpayers money.It would be interesting to see the exact figures to back that.Although you’ve obviously missed the issue of quality v quantity.
Meanwhile your answer to an obvious attempt by China to wage economic warfare on us should be surrender to it by closing our industry down.
As it stands the Germans are producing more now than we did in 1972 and they obviously haven’t sold out their industry to China’s Indian allies to close down.Nor are we hearing any whingeing from German producers that they ‘can’t compete’.On that note we don’t need to ‘prop it up’ we just need to give it the same chance as Germany gives its industry.The difference being that in the absence of German Nationalist buying habits here we have to enforce the idea of buying British by way of trade barriers.
any sources to back Chinese steel being lower quality? as far as I’m aware everyone adheres to the same quality standards.
My friends Dad own a metal fabrication company and has imported Chinese for years! They still make steel to the T45/CDS standard like we do here or beyond as well much lower tensile and he’s had very little issues.
Any issues he has had have been resolved quickly. I seem to remember him receiving an order and when welded it would bubble and make holes due to massive amounts of excess boron and China flew a rep/quality guy out the same week!
dreamlands2001:
How do you think I felt delivering a load of Chinese steel to a firm in Port Talbot, I’m just a driver doing my job and the lads (in the factory not the office boffins) were well cheesed off with the situation, “bloody steel industry ACROSS THE ROAD and were getting it all the way from China cheaper”
Slightly different product, but I remember 10 years ago, delivering container loads of granite to a massive construction job in Aberdeen, apparently it was cheaper to ship it in from China than get it 5 miles up the road at the local granite quarries!
Carryfast:
switchlogic:
China produced 790 million tonnes of steel last year. We produced…12 million. As for China waging economic warfare on us! I doubt they give us much of a thought to be honest! You may not like it Carryfast but we simply aren’t the world power we were, I doubt China is overly concerned what we do.As I said quality v quantity and that figure obviously doesn’t relate to our entire historic production.As for China’s over capacity if they’re not out to wage economic warfare then why over produce to such a level and the try to dump it on the developed western economies ?.As for tonnage we produced around 30 million t in 1972 the Germans produced over 40 million last year.So what changed and how do you account for the difference between UK and German production.Here’s a clue it isn’t because UK production is running behind UK demand and the Germans obviously don’t seem to be suffering from Chinese competition.
In all honesty I don’t really care. I just wanted to share that interesting nugget.
truckyboy:
According to to the news last night, its not just port talbot…its the whole of tata steel plants throughout the uk, this will affect 15,000 employed by them, plus the subsidiaries. All of this brought about by cheap steel from abroad, ( china ) under Eu legislation to give them special tariffs, and also the fact tata are losing £1 million pounds per day…very sad state of affairs for british industry. In all honestly, i cannot see that the british government can do a lot about it…they may prop up the plant, they may take it back into government control, but it wont be for too long, otherwise they will be losing £1 million per day…not good sense…unless they can persuade the chinese to raise their prices ( lol ) or stop the EU from allowing them cheap tariffs ( another joke ) so it looks like its all going either down the drain, or another EU country will take all the work ( Germany for eg )…whatever happens, a lot of welsh people are gonna end up out of work…and that is sad.
15000 plus on benefits adds up to more than 1mil a day 
All talk of it being sold is nonsense. No business can afford to lose a million a day, even one as big as TATA. Buyers might cherry-pick the bits of the business with some profit potential, but the whole plant being sold is not going to happen without subsidy or grants from somewhere.
The big question is…why save it? If in the future steel making sounds like a profitable business, you can bet your life somebody will build a plant to make it. This talk of skills and the ability to make steel being lost forever is nonsense.
Once it has closed perhaps we can then focus conversation on the part played by the unions in the 80’s and 90’s that made this closure inevitable…just like all the other great industries in this country.
How can a steel union boss leave with a £500,000 pay off? That happened only a couple of years ago. Does anybody remember the steel workers striking in the 80’s and getting a 20% pay rise? No wonder it was a closed shop…do you think poor umemployed Dai with no family connections in the steel mill or the mines could ever get in ? No chance. He would have to become a shelf-stacker or a HGV driver.
maga:
any sources to back Chinese steel being lower quality? as far as I’m aware everyone adheres to the same quality standards.My friends Dad own a metal fabrication company and has imported Chinese for years! They still make steel to the T45/CDS standard like we do here or beyond as well much lower tensile and he’s had very little issues.
Any issues he has had have been resolved quickly. I seem to remember him receiving an order and when welded it would bubble and make holes due to massive amounts of excess boron and China flew a rep/quality guy out the same week!
Let me guess he imports Chinese steel because the cheap Chinese stuff makes for more profit in the job when it’s sold on in the more developed UK economy.Which is only more developed because of the higher more developed wage rates here which pay for it all.Which will obviously be unsustainable in a deflationary environment caused by race to the bottom short term profit taking by throwing our own workforce on the dole to take advantage of cheap exploited foreign Labour.
As for ‘sources’ related to Chinese steel quality they are numerous across the western world from Australia to the US.
As for any issues being ‘resolved’ quickly how did sending a ‘rep’ out supposedly do anything to fix a load of dodgy steel which was already effectively a pile of scrap at the smelting stage.
busteredwards:
dreamlands2001:
How do you think I felt delivering a load of Chinese steel to a firm in Port Talbot, I’m just a driver doing my job and the lads (in the factory not the office boffins) were well cheesed off with the situation, “bloody steel industry ACROSS THE ROAD and were getting it all the way from China cheaper”Slightly different product, but I remember 10 years ago, delivering container loads of granite to a massive construction job in Aberdeen, apparently it was cheaper to ship it in from China than get it 5 miles up the road at the local granite quarries!
I think we will all have stories like that. In the mid 90’s, used to run Swedish Stainless Steel from Immingham to Sheffield.
10 Years ago, I was delivering a Milk powder derivative for Cattle fodder, to Northwich, the heart of English diary farming, the product was being shipped in from Mexico .
The difference now, is that the Chinese steel is being heavily subsidised by the Chinese Government, that’s is a hurdle that’s impossible to clear without help 
Carryfast:
As for tonnage we produced around 30 million t in 1972 the Germans produced over 40 million last year.So what changed and how do you account for the difference between UK and German production.Here’s a clue it isn’t because UK production is running behind UK demand and the Germans obviously don’t seem to be suffering from Chinese competition.
Maybe its because the Germans production cost base is lower, and that has nothing to do with a race to the bottom on wages.
Janos:
The big question is…why save it? If in the future steel making sounds like a profitable business, you can bet your life somebody will build a plant to make it. This talk of skills and the ability to make steel being lost forever is nonsense.
Once it has closed perhaps we can then focus conversation on the part played by the unions in the 80’s and 90’s that made this closure inevitable…just like all the other great industries in this country.
How can a steel union boss leave with a £500,000 pay off? That happened only a couple of years ago. Does anybody remember the steel workers striking in the 80’s and getting a 20% pay rise? No wonder it was a closed shop…do you think poor umemployed Dai with no family connections in the steel mill or the mines could ever get in ? No chance. He would have to become a shelf-stacker or a HGV driver.
Are you seriously suggesting that working in a steel works is a more coveted job than a decent truck driving job.
Then you’re blaming the steel workers unions for not working for Chinese wages.While no doubt selectively not wanting the same deflationary idea for yourself.On that note if there’s anything that the unions can be blamed for it’s being led down the misguided path of socialism when it’s nationalism which is needed to defeat the bs being put out by those with your views.Hopefully this will give the unions the kicking they need to wake up in that regard.
As for your argument ironically that’s actually obviously on the same side as zb Thatcher and Cameron and their exploitative Commy Chinese allies.As opposed to Fordist Capitalism.
On that note maybe you could provide your views as to opening up the UK road transport sector to unlimited East Euro cabotage and,depending on which answer,why. 
eddie snax:
Carryfast:
As for tonnage we produced around 30 million t in 1972 the Germans produced over 40 million last year.So what changed and how do you account for the difference between UK and German production.Here’s a clue it isn’t because UK production is running behind UK demand and the Germans obviously don’t seem to be suffering from Chinese competition.Maybe its because the Germans production cost base is lower, and that has nothing to do with a race to the bottom on wages.
Probably similar costs with the exception of cheaper energy.The difference is that the Germans are still far more loyal to their country in the realisation that short term personal profit,at the expense of the nation’s economy as a whole,is not an option given the choice between a load of imported Chinese,or even British,produced steel v German.As for cheaper energy,like back door trade barriers,they obviously say one thing regarding the rules for everyone else,while doing another for themselves.On that note our problem is obviously a treacherous government that has no intention of looking after the national interest.Together with an equally treacherous short term profiteering mentality,that takes advantage of despotic Chinese economics,that makes a few rich,at the expense of the economy as a whole.
perkibre:
To be honest Sidevalve, I have started to take note of where things have been manufactured, and now try and source whatever I can from British company’s. I’m hoping to change my motorbike in near future, and Triumph is the bike I am going for.
Unfortunately I wouldn’t count on too much of that being of wholly British origin . Nice bikes though.
Despite Carryfast’s attempt to send me to the Tower of London above, I don’t want the British steel industry to disappear either. Having said that, I have grave reservations about Labour’s idealistic view that it should be preserved in its entirety at any cost. Port Talbot may be a modern state-of-the-art plant with excellent potential for profit once the current recession peters out, but I’m led to believe that Scunthorpe and several others are antiquated and run-down, so if that is the case is it worth throwing what effectively is good money after bad?
If the British manufacturing sector had a tenth of the money the UK government threw at the banks then I think we could ride out any recession but like as been stated our treacherous leaders don’t give a fig about the long term implications of what’s happening.
Carryfast:
Janos:
The big question is…why save it? If in the future steel making sounds like a profitable business, you can bet your life somebody will build a plant to make it. This talk of skills and the ability to make steel being lost forever is nonsense.
Once it has closed perhaps we can then focus conversation on the part played by the unions in the 80’s and 90’s that made this closure inevitable…just like all the other great industries in this country.
How can a steel union boss leave with a £500,000 pay off? That happened only a couple of years ago. Does anybody remember the steel workers striking in the 80’s and getting a 20% pay rise? No wonder it was a closed shop…do you think poor umemployed Dai with no family connections in the steel mill or the mines could ever get in ? No chance. He would have to become a shelf-stacker or a HGV driver.Are you seriously suggesting that working in a steel works is a more coveted job than a decent truck driving job.
Then you’re blaming the steel workers unions for not working for Chinese wages.While no doubt selectively not wanting the same deflationary idea for yourself.On that note if there’s anything that the unions can be blamed for it’s being led down the misguided path of socialism when it’s nationalism which is needed to defeat the bs being put out by those with your views.Hopefully this will give the unions the kicking they need to wake up in that regard.
As for your argument ironically that’s actually obviously on the same side as zb Thatcher and Cameron and their exploitative Commy Chinese allies.As opposed to Fordist Capitalism.
On that note maybe you could provide your views as to opening up the UK road transport sector to unlimited East Euro cabotage and,depending on which answer,why.
Protectionism is not the answer, if enough do it, we could have another Great Depression. Where do you stop once you start doing that? What about the oil workers…what about all those hauliers that went bust because of the recent sky high fuel prices?
There is a new world order, and we can’t compete in the mass production of anything. We can produce quality though, and if the steel industry had been allowed to innovate by the unions in previous decades, then perhaps they would still be competitive.
Also, a job in the steel works would beat most driving jobs wage and pension wise hands down. You would never see a vacancy advertised in the local job centre though. Same as for the mines and the docks…and the railways etc. Although,they are now all reaping what they sowed themselves.
topmixer11:
truckyboy:
According to to the news last night, its not just port talbot…its the whole of tata steel plants throughout the uk, this will affect 15,000 employed by them, plus the subsidiaries. All of this brought about by cheap steel from abroad, ( china ) under Eu legislation to give them special tariffs, and also the fact tata are losing £1 million pounds per day…very sad state of affairs for british industry. In all honestly, i cannot see that the british government can do a lot about it…they may prop up the plant, they may take it back into government control, but it wont be for too long, otherwise they will be losing £1 million per day…not good sense…unless they can persuade the chinese to raise their prices ( lol ) or stop the EU from allowing them cheap tariffs ( another joke ) so it looks like its all going either down the drain, or another EU country will take all the work ( Germany for eg )…whatever happens, a lot of welsh people are gonna end up out of work…and that is sad.15000 plus on benefits adds up to more than 1mil a day
Simple economics well said topmixer, this government is still lending over £200 million a day to keep our ■■■■■■ up country afloat, whilst all the while crowing how well we are doing into one ear and how we must be wary into the other! You all might not like Carryfast on here but what he says is always factually true, reality is we need to get the ■■■■ out of the EU take a deep breath and feel the economic pain until we can redress the situation as GREAT Britain and give our future generations a chance, not the 5 year wonders we elect (?) into Parliament…