perkibre:
I personally would like to see, the steel industry renationalised, and see a culture, in which we buy British made steel, instead of cheap imports, which are inferior in terms of quality ! When Stagecoach East Coast (Railway) was took back into state control, it went back into profit, generating £500m profit. If we ensured that all infrastructure projects used British made steel, surely it would help. Port Talbot has one of the newest blast furnaces in Europe, it’s only a couple of years old, so it can’t be that inefficient !
You’re adding apples and oranges. The railway is a service industry, not a manufacturing one. It doesn’t have to compete in the world market.
For the record; Network Rail use 97% British steel, I daresay a lot of other companies do likewise.
It’s also worth noting that we’re not just talking here about the steel itself, but the products which use it; of which there are millions. If, for example, Network Rail bought cheaper track of equal quality from abroad and was therefore able to cut its costs and those of the rail companies, resulting in cheaper fares, would you be happy? A helluva lot of commuters would.
Further to your suggestion, when was the last time you bought something substantial because it was made in Britain rather than because it was made elsewhere and considerably cheaper? Repeat this worldwide ,and you have the reason why plants in high-earning countries like the UK, and many others besides, are dying. They simply cannot afford to compete.
Sidevalve:
If, for example, Network Rail bought cheaper track of equal quality from abroad and was therefore able to cut its costs and those of the rail companies, resulting in cheaper fares, would you be happy? A helluva lot of commuters would.
Further to your suggestion, when was the last time you bought something substantial because it was made in Britain rather than because it was made elsewhere and considerably cheaper? Repeat this worldwide ,and you have the reason why plants in high-earning countries like the UK, and many others besides, are dying. They simply cannot afford to compete.
So explain how the Germans can ‘compete’ currently producing steel at a higher rate than we were in 1972 but we supposedly can’t ?.
As for your idea of selectively applied deflation it doesn’t work like that.If you’re going for deflation to match the lowest common denominator as opposed to protectionism then those ‘commuters’ will ‘also’ obviously have to accept a massive correction in ‘their’ incomes and job security.Because everyone’s income is inter dependent on the spending power of every one else in the economy as a whole.
Hopefully people will wake up to those with your type of bs treasonous logic before the country ends up where our competitors like Germany and potential enemies like Communist China want us,in being a de industrialised economic wreck of a country.That is also no longer able to defend itself because it’s dependent on imports of strategic stuff like steel and/or has the defence budget of a banana republic with no bananas.In an economy which has collapsed because it no longer runs on Fordist principles.
As for ‘cheaper’ in this case that generally comes at the expense of quality and/or exploited workers in places like China.Probably also with the the deliberate intention of putting us out of the frame.Which probably explains why the US obviously doesn’t agree with you in putting massive tarrifs on cheap Chinese steel imports at least.
To be honest Sidevalve, I have started to take note of where things have been manufactured, and now try and source whatever I can from British company’s. I’m hoping to change my motorbike in near future, and Triumph is the bike I am going for. I’m fed up of everything you buy, being made in China, I don’t look at cost no more, I look at quality, but I do see where you are coming from.
I’ve just watched newsnight, the guy on from the Daily Telegraph, commented, that Steel is a industry we should be leaving behind, and focusing more on jobs, like in London, pubs, restaurants and service industry’s, that to me is a sad reflection of the way a lot of people, are now thinking. Working, doing something like that would bore me to tears !
perkibre:
I’ve just watched newsnight, the guy on from the Daily Telegraph, commented, that Steel is a industry we should be leaving behind, and focusing more on jobs, like in London, pubs, restaurants and service industry’s, that to me is a sad reflection of the way a lot of people, are now thinking. Working, doing something like that would bore me to tears !
No surprise the Germans obviously don’t agree with the Telegraph correspondent’s obviously economically illiterate ideas.Great pubs and restaurants and waste of space office workers.That’ll pay for all those German imports of manufactured goods.Just like Greece.
I’m with you Carryfast, I think it’s such a shame, that some people think heavy industry is a dirty word, and should be cast away. Steelmaking is a art, and we produce the best steel in the world, let’s not loose it. I can remember having a conversation, with one of the shift managers on the BOS plant at SSI Lackenby, he was passionate about every melt, a true professional, and I think that’s the same, for the majority of steelworkers, who work on the deck, be it Port Talbot, Scunthorpe, Aldwarke and Stocksbridge.
perkibre:
I think it’s such a shame, that some people think heavy industry is a dirty word, and should be cast away. Steelmaking is a art, and we produce the best steel in the world, let’s not loose it.
+1
It goes further than that.In that it’s almost as though they actually want our competitors or even potential enemies to succeed in taking out our industrial base.
Couple of quotes from the former MD of Npower, this morning on 5live. The average Megawatt Hour price (electricity) in the UK £35, the average Megawatt Hour price in the EU 25 Euro’s. Offshore wind generated power Strike price MWHr UK £118, the strike price per MWHr for Hinkley point Nuclear power station (if it ever goes ahead) £98. Heavy subsidies for those industries, so why can that be ok, yet to subsidies steel not
Plus, its no wonder we aren’t competing with Germany, when there power is getting on for half the cost
Anyone who wishes to check those figures and source, need only pod cast this mornings wake up to money, bbc 5live
raymundo:
Seems like Tata has pulled the plug on the Port Talbot steel works, what will be the repercussions and now will the UK government stop sending aid to India when it’s now us that need it.
(And if any one I know buy a Jaguar car I will key it !! )
Why the UK government?
Thought the Welsh had their own Government let them sort it out.
They have their own NHS etc free prescriptions etc maybe the Welsh should start paying their own way.
I agree totally with the line Carryfast is taking, I would though say that It is also a dogma thing, the tory governments in the past were hell bent on selling off the family silver from heavy industry to the radio waves, the following labour ones needed to finance their social policies and continued the practice. Neither are prepared to admit that it was all a massive mistake. So we are now well into the second generation of a population who have been brainwashed into seeing all aspects of engineering and manufacturing as somehow unclean, unless it is something which can be done sitting down, in a white coat, or at a computer screen. It has progressed from that into an increasing proportion of the population regarding those who do still work in the older traditional industries as unclean themselves and not worthy, being a sort of inferior class human being. We have gone so far into the ME, ME, ME culture that no government dare admit that that an increase in income tax would make a difference to any of the problems with which we are faced.
Janos:
No more jobs for the boys. They priced themselves out the market years ago too. Also, how many drivers on here have had to put up with interminable queues and being treated appallingly by the various mills? Either at Shotton, Scunthorpe or in the Valleys. Lots of short memories here.
+1
bunch of lazy, militant frecers.
+2 especially Scunthorpe - hated that place.
is it only the british that have this sense of lets save a money losing industry with tax payers money so we can keep losing money?
if its that or sending abroad I would rather it stayed at home but I just cant see the logic if you cant make it pay then its no different to any other business and will fail everyone has competition if your not competitive (either in quality or price) then it fails simple as.
Just had a quick look at Tata Steels accounts for the year ending 31.3.15.On a turnover of £4.175billion the loss was £1.097billion, how can we cope with that? I presume the trading situation has deteriorated since year end.
war1974:
is it only the british that have this sense of lets save a money losing industry with tax payers money so we can keep losing money?
if its that or sending abroad I would rather it stayed at home but I just cant see the logic if you cant make it pay then its no different to any other business and will fail everyone has competition if your not competitive (either in quality or price) then it fails simple as.
No unlike the Germans it’s the British who have the economically illiterate idea that we either deflate the economy to match the lowest common denominator like China.Or we can just go on closing down our industrial base until we’re entirely reliant on imports paid for with borrowed and printed money.Or in this case probably more like the Chinese Communist Party own the country having taken it as payment.
On that note be careful what you wish for because exactly the same argument as you’re using could be applied to the UK transport industry if/when it’s opened up to East Euro and Turkish cabotage operations.Meanwhile ze Germans will still be laughing by making sure that they ( rightly ) only use their own transport providers among other back door protectionist policies as in the case of steel.
Gardner6LYT:
Just had a quick look at Tata Steels accounts for the year ending 31.3.15.On a turnover of £4.175billion the loss was £1.097billion, how can we cope with that? I presume the trading situation has deteriorated since year end.
Which part of,‘we cope with it’ by closing the door to the cheap imports that are causing the losses,don’t you understand.On that note there’s not much point in remembering the dead who’ve fought for their country if you’re then going to wreck the place they fought for by leaving it open to what is effectively economic warfare.
Carryfast:
On that note be careful what you wish for because exactly the same argument as you’re using could be applied to the UK transport industry if/when it’s opened up to East Euro and Turkish cabotage operations.Meanwhile ze Germans will still be laughing by making sure that they only use their own transport providers among other back door protectionist policies as in the case of steel.
So what you are implying, is that Germany (I’m being deliberately naïve here) are flouting EU rules to subsidies and protect their industrial base, next you’ll have me believe the French are doing the same. To that matter, if its good enough for those staunch EU nations, why are our politicians refusing, answer, because their friends in finance wouldn’t like it, and that has nothing to do with the EU, and will not change whether IN or OUT. The WTO bans state too you know but the US puts 266% tarrif on Chinese steel, 2 fingers up to the WTO from them too. Still we can sleep easy at night knowing that our corrupt political leaders have kept the Bankers happy
why should we have to save it? if I had a business that lost money they wouldn’t save it unless it can be made competitive, looking at those figures it isn’t and is nowhere near it.
war1974:
why should we have to save it? if I had a business that lost money they wouldn’t save it unless it can be made competitive, looking at those figures it isn’t and is nowhere near it.
Forget the wage bill, just look at the cost of Industrial Electricity here compared to Germany. I’m led to believe that steel making uses a lot of the stuff too, and the Germans pay half of what UK producers do, and that doesn’t include the green charges, that to late in the day have been scrapped. If the cost of electricity was at the same level as the wider EU, then you might find all of a sudden, British Steel is as competitive as German steel, more expensive than the Chinese, but competitive on a regional level.
Lets not forget, that the present low cost of Oil wont last, and then in a decades time or sooner, when the cost of importing has increased due to transport costs, and the commodity price has risen because of lower global production capacity, then we will be high and dry without our own source of supply
war1974:
why should we have to save it? if I had a business that lost money they wouldn’t save it unless it can be made competitive, looking at those figures it isn’t and is nowhere near it.
Forget the wage bill, just look at the cost of Industrial Electricity here compared to Germany. I’m led to believe that steel making uses a lot of the stuff too, and the Germans pay half of what UK producers do, and that doesn’t include the green charges, that to late in the day have been scrapped. If the cost of electricity was at the same level as the wider EU, then you might find all of a sudden, British Steel is as competitive as German steel, more expensive than the Chinese, but competitive on a regional level.
Lets not forget, that the present low cost of Oil wont last, and then in a decades time or sooner, when the cost of importing has increased due to transport costs, and the commodity price has risen because of lower global production capacity, then we will be high and dry without our own source of supply
but would that really make that much of a difference? 1billion losses I doubt very much is down to higher charges solely?
don’t get me wrong I think we need to retain some form of industry but we wont.
war1974:
why should we have to save it? if I had a business that lost money they wouldn’t save it unless it can be made competitive, looking at those figures it isn’t and is nowhere near it.
It obviously isn’t competitive in an open door trading environment which allows domestic industry to be subject to Chinese predatory pricing.In an energy cost environment in which ze Germans and the Chinese don’t give a zb about bs global warming and are obviously using the Brit’s belief in it to gain an economic advantage.
Meanwhile as I said by your logic you’d obviously also be happy to wipe out the UK road transport industry by opening it up to East Euro and Turkish cabotage operations.
war1974:
but would that really make that much of a difference? 1billion losses I doubt very much is down to higher charges solely?
The perfect storm of a higher cost environment to produce it and prices depressed by Chinese predatory pricing when they try to flog it.The Germans obviously getting round all those problems in the real world which is the example we need to follow.
The Chinese government are bailing out there steel industry.
I’m sure I heard every ton produced is sold at a $34 dollar loss. We have to save our industry as that isn’t going to go on for ever.
For once carry fast is talking a lot of sense about this subject.
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