Darb:
Because you are available for work, if you were on a break you would say " clear off I’m on a 45 " if your on POA then you just say " no problem mate I’m on a period of availability "
But do we really need a different mode for compulsory and non compulsory periods of rest? What difference does it make to anybody? If your just sat around waiting to be tipped it isn’t a compulsory break so you can just switch your tacho back over to work whenever you want.
I was joking, I agree with you, I never use POA hence my question as to how VOSA would view that 
I don’t much like POA myself, but as I see it there are two main reasons why you would want to use it.
The first has been mentioned already: To enable you to do more overtime without going over legal limit of a 45 hour average WORKING week. If you put it on break all the time, how does the gaffer know what you (say you) were doing? And how does the girl in the office who tries to work out what she should pay you (tacho based wages) read your tacho? It’d be your own fault if she took all your ‘breaks’ off you and only paid you the time you say you were working.
The second nobody has yet come up with: It is possible to make yourself an illegal tacho by having too much break. 
Honestly, it really is. Let me give you an example:
Mr A. Driver does two hours driving to his first pickup. The people who are (supposed to be) loading him have two other trucks to do, so he puts it on break. And he’s been sitting there over an hour, and then they call him in. He has another 6 hours of dirivng to do that day. So he does another two hours, puts in a 30 minute break. Then does another four hours driving and he’s done.
Is his tacho legal? He’s only done 8 hours driving in the whole day, and he’s had an hour break after two hours, another 30 minutes 2 hours later, and then 4 hours at the end of the day. So he must be good?
NO. THIS IS AN ILLEGAL TACHO. Believe it or not, he’s had too much break. 
By having over 45 minutes break the first time he stopped, his driving time has reset. So effectively he’s done 6 hours driving with only a 30 minute break in the middle. It’s total rubbish, I agree. But that’s the way the drivers hours rules were written. Ill thought out. If he’d only taken 15 minutes break at that first stop, and then put it on POA for the other 45 minutes of waiting time, his tacho would be nice and legal and he’d get a pat on the head from the traffic office, rather than a bollocking.
This is what I was taught by RHA training when I was on their drivers hours training course a while back. If anybody can show me, chapter and verse that I’m wrong and there is a common sense over-ride, then I’m all ears, because believe me I’d LOVE to be wrong on this one! 
Helen! The LAW as you describe is correct! BUT correct me if I’m wrong! Is POA exclusive to the UK or not? And is it not the case that the EMPLOYER has to record POA to prove to VOSA and the TC’s that their drivers are compliant with the 48 hour average over a 17 or 26 week reference period?
Helen Stevens:
I don’t much like POA myself, but as I see it there are two main reasons why you would want to use it.The first has been mentioned already: To enable you to do more overtime without going over legal limit of a 45 hour average WORKING week. If you put it on break all the time, how does the gaffer know what you (say you) were doing? And how does the girl in the office who tries to work out what she should pay you (tacho based wages) read your tacho? It’d be your own fault if she took all your ‘breaks’ off you and only paid you the time you say you were working.
It’s a 48 hour average and break enables you to do overtime without exceeding the limits just as well as POA does. In fact as the requirements for break are less it can do more to keep you below the average than POA can. As for wages, that’s easy. They just pay you for all the hours you have been on shift, less just 45-minutes break if they normally deduct that.
Helen Stevens:
The second nobody has yet come up with: It is possible to make yourself an illegal tacho by having too much break.Mr A. Driver does two hours driving to his first pickup. The people who are (supposed to be) loading him have two other trucks to do, so he puts it on break. And he’s been sitting there over an hour, and then they call him in. He has another 6 hours of dirivng to do that day. So he does another two hours, puts in a 30 minute break. Then does another four hours driving and he’s done.
Is his tacho legal? He’s only done 8 hours driving in the whole day, and he’s had an hour break after two hours, another 30 minutes 2 hours later, and then 4 hours at the end of the day. So he must be good?
NO. THIS IS AN ILLEGAL TACHO.
Or he could simply have taken an extra 15 minutes when he took the 30 minutes or take 15 minutes then and 30 later, and it would be legal. Probably sensible not to do 6 hours driving with just 30 minutes break anyway. Also in your scenario he could only switch it to POA after 15 minutes if he knew how long he was going to be waiting.
+1^
dessy:
And is it not the case that the EMPLOYER has to record POA to prove to VOSA and the TC’s that their drivers are compliant with the 48 hour average over a 17 or 26 week reference period?
Don’t have to record POA to ensure that, break will achieve the same result.
I was told to use POA or break, my choice. I’m happier using break - and a bit of forethought will prevent the scenario given by Helen.
Coffeeholic:
dessy:
And is it not the case that the EMPLOYER has to record POA to prove to VOSA and the TC’s that their drivers are compliant with the 48 hour average over a 17 or 26 week reference period?Don’t have to record POA to ensure that, break will achieve the same result.
I know coffee! Break or POA! I would have Break! 
I completely agree with everything coffee says on the matter if i had a choice i would use break. I think POA is wholly used by large companies, i very much doubt you’d get your small outfit using it.
The reason (i think) big companies use it is to get all their apples in one basket and all their oranges in one basket. When you are looking on a national scale at drivers hours having a clear difference between waiting time and break time helps them work out budgets help them chase customers on lead times etc. You’ll most likely get some big wig who doesnt understand transport asking why are these drivers having so much bloody break so the TM’S get the drivers to use POA as its easier to explain on a graph.
I believe correct me if im wrong like dessy says Britain is the only country in Europe that uses POA and this is why it doesn’t work on digital tacho software. The reason i think Britain is the only country is because we do the most hours. Britsh workers seem to have this lazy image but by god we put in the hours compared to our cousins in France etc
Coffeeholic:
It’s a 48 hour average and break enables you to do overtime without exceeding the limits just as well as POA does. In fact as the requirements for break are less it can do more to keep you below the average than POA can. As for wages, that’s easy. They just pay you for all the hours you have been on shift, less just 45-minutes break if they normally deduct that.
I knew it was 48 really, just testing ya! 
I am that girl in the office, Coffee, and believe me it’s not quite that simple. I really wish the lads would just book what they’re doing and why they’re there. Lots of times, somebody has a second break, and because I’m also a driver and can read an (analogue) tacho quite well, I know they stopped on the services because that driver likes the slot machines (and we don’t mind this, as long as it is booked appropriately and the driver is on their way home without time constraints) and I can legitimately deduct it. If you can’t read a tacho, how do you know which lads are taking the ■■■■ and sitting in the services an extra hour from getting paid for it? Not quite so easy to read a digi tacho in this way, I have to say! It requires a lot more judgement!
Coffeeholic:
Or he could simply have taken an extra 15 minutes when he took the 30 minutes or take 15 minutes then and 30 later, and it would be legal. Probably sensible not to do 6 hours driving with just 30 minutes break anyway. Also in your scenario he could only switch it to POA after 15 minutes if he knew how long he was going to be waiting.
I agree, he could have taken an extra 15 minutes in the middle of the day. But this would be 15 minutes later home, and on a different day could take him over your 15 hour maximum on the tacho. And why should his employer pay him an extra 15 minutes for not booking his breaks right? It will have already stung the employer enough to have paid the driver for the hour he was sitting in the queue.
As for your suggestion that he shouldn’t do 6 hours with only 30 minutes in the middle, why not? This would be perfectly legal if the first break had only been 15 minutes. And in my humble experience the vast majority of professional drivers would manage this fine with no problems at all. And those who can’t manage this fine should either take a less demanding job (within the industry) or shouldn’t be a professional driver at all. Each person should know their own limits.
No disrespect intended, Coffee. You know your stuff. 
I am just pointing out the flaws in the system. 
And a compromise to big business! Merc Can you imagine how little work would get done in the UK if we all stuck rigid to 48 hour weeks! There would be plenty of shifts available for all of us!
Coffeeholic:
Also in your scenario he could only switch it to POA after 15 minutes if he knew how long he was going to be waiting.
He knows how long he’s going to be waiting. He’s going to be waiting as long as it takes them to tip that lorry in front.
If I hand my keys over when at an RDC would they stop work after 45 minutes to give me my keys so I could go and change tacho to POA ? 
LOL! Maybe we should have the mode change on remote control? (Tuned specifically to each truck, you don’t wanna be changing the mode of every truck in the RDC).
I dunno Darb. I never thought of that one. And I daresay the people who wrote the rules didn’t either. But then let’s face it, you NEVER have any idea how long you’re gonna be at an RDC. 
So I guess I have to back down on that one and say you’d have to leave it on break all night.
We don’t do RDC’s (for that reason). We only do nice work here.
Mmhh! 3 or 4 hours on break!
switchlogic:
I have never ever used POA and never had a problem with the authorities. If I’m stopped and it’s not other work it goes on break.
Thats what we do. I have never used it and it hasn’t caused a problem,
Helen Stevens:
Lots of times, somebody has a second break, and because I’m also a driver and can read an (analogue) tacho quite well, I know they stopped on the services because that driver likes the slot machines (and we don’t mind this, as long as it is booked appropriately and the driver is on their way home without time constraints) and I can legitimately deduct it. If you can’t read a tacho, how do you know which lads are taking the ■■■■ and sitting in the services an extra hour from getting paid for it? Not quite so easy to read a digi tacho in this way, I have to say!
Easier than an analogue as the times for each activity are there instead of trying to work out some lines scratched on a wax disc.
Which means he clearly can’t book it as POA. 
So would you rather he booked it as other work and thereby present you with a potential problem later in the week when he has reached his 60 hours max for the week?
Coffeeholic:
Helen Stevens:
Lots of times, somebody has a second break, and because I’m also a driver and can read an (analogue) tacho quite well, I know they stopped on the services because that driver likes the slot machines (and we don’t mind this, as long as it is booked appropriately and the driver is on their way home without time constraints) and I can legitimately deduct it. If you can’t read a tacho, how do you know which lads are taking the ■■■■ and sitting in the services an extra hour from getting paid for it? Not quite so easy to read a digi tacho in this way, I have to say!Easier than an analogue as the times for each activity are there instead of trying to work out some lines scratched on a wax disc.
Which means he clearly can’t book it as POA.
Ahh, no I mislead you there (sorry) - he books the break on the services as break. But by this time it’s later in the day and he can take more break without messing up his hours. It’s when you take too much break before lunch that it can get messy (and illegal).
Nah, I prefer reading analogue tachos. The hours are easy enough to read with one of those turn around disc things we use in the office. And with an analogue tacho the info is all there in front of you, you can look at the speed the driver was going, see when he was crawling along on the motorway, and see when he pulled off the motorway to take a leak (sudden drop in speed from 85kph to zero, five minutes on other work - doesn’t mess with the tacho as he’s too busy running for the lavvy - then sudden acceleration back up to 85kph). Maybe it’s just our digi tacho software, but you can’t see speed in graphical form. Just blocks of blue (driving) red (other work) yellow (POA) and green (break). So if the driver spends an hour driving on the motorway, you expect him to have done about 50 miles, but you can’t tell if he’s actually only done five miles because he’s been crawling along in a jam (without actually stopping), since you don’t get speed info on the same page. If the digi tacho makes no sense at all to the day I think the driver should have done, I can look at speed separately. It’s given in one second intervals in numerical form. Like finding a needle in a haystack. A small mountain of data. It’s no wonder my computer is on a go slow since digi tachos came in 
Oh and I have all this data in there twice, since I have to download it from the truck computer as well as off the driver card. What fun! 