Please enlighten me on lifting axles

Well, i know it is supposed to take some weight on from other axles so when you are loaded you drive with it lowered and you drive with it lifted when empty.

That’s all i really know about it. I am sure there more to this. Anyone fancy spending some time explaining some basic things behind the technology?

on top of that a question on Axor.

one picture shows the dash with axle up (with small arrors next to the pic of the axle), the other shows the dash with axle down. What puzzles me is the orange bit, which i read as warning message. wtf is it about?

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The arrows tell you that your mid lift is up and the yellow bar is informing you of this. It is a warning as such, but not one that needs anything doing about it so long as you’re aware.

The good old mid lift axle, there are minor differences to how each maker’s mid lifts behave, and now and again you might come across an aftermarket that is different again (fortunately rare).

This is for mid lifts, rear tag axles are rare and i’ll leave those to someone more experienced than i am.

Yes empty up and loaded down, but if lightly loaded run with it up, you’ll find handling better and wet grip miles better.

As a general rule if the mid lift is an auto and has stayed up when loaded then the tractor is lightly enough loaded to continue like that, once empty if might come up on its own but other makes will not, ■■■■ it and see.
Older Axors are an exception here, one of the few lorries with a full size mid lift that the driver has total control over, the mid lift will come up if the button is pressed (on ones i’ve driven) fully loaded so care is needed, but these vehicles are birlliant for hill climbing in the snow because you can get that axle up long before the speed limit override on other makes allows this, older Axor is one of the most modern old school driver’s lorries about and will laugh at snow that other makes will leave you stranded in.
Haven’t driven a new shape Axor or Actros so can’t tell you if the above still applies you’ll have to try it and see if you have one.

Anyway back to general mid lifts.

There are normally two buttons on the dash for controls, one with the umbrella over the axle on the switch is the air dump valve, this is for transferring the weight off a loaded mid lift for traction purposes (some mid lifts will lift completely off the ground during use if you have full air, MAN’s in particular), it doesn’t usually work over 20mph hence on snow/ice hill climbing you will need to test at what speed it starts to work so you can dump the air as early as possible as you climb a slippery hill to give you a fighting chance of making the hill.
I use the dump control when loaded off the public highway all the time, it cuts down on tyre scrub and lessens wear on all the mid lift bushes, also makes manoeuvering easier because the vehicle turns easier, i will also dump the mid lift air temporarily when pulling out of a slippery junction cos it lessens the chance of wheelspin…with MAN’s definately and older Axors as previously said (others can’t remember/don’t know) the mid lift will riase off the ground after about 10 seconds or so even fully loaded if you full air pressure, but on MAN’s will normally drop again once up to 20 mph but on the open road you would drop it again manually once the danger of a slippery junction was passed…i wouldn’t like to say the legal implications of this but it would an unusual VOSA man who had a go at you for ensuring you had a safe junction exit for a moment by transferring weight onto the drive axle.

If any VOSA/DVSA whatever its called this week staff happen to read this i’d welcome any comments about this practice please re legalities and how you view such things.

Now this is where it gets interesting, cos sometimes even with the mid lift air dumped as soon as the vehicle detects the slightest wheelspin the traction control will cut the power, this is a pain in the arse if you’re cursed with any of the unfit for purpose Arsetronic boxes now de rigeur, so if you have that nasty jack knife reverse uphill on a slippery slope as well as dumping the mid lift air it might pay to switch off TC or ASR (MANs version of TC) this will allow a drive wheel to slip without cutting the power and releasing the clutch as it does on arstronic…learn this technique because it will get you out of slippery situations in the winter…and whilst on winter diff lock can be a boon it can make things worse too, sometimes with both wheels spinning the drive axle will slip sideways depending on camber, sometimes leaving diff lock off allows one wheel to spin and dig down to tarmac, other times teh diff lock get you going and through, no two situations will be the same and learning exactly how your own lorry behaves before the snow arrives is vital.

The switch with the umbrella is only meant for dumping the air, it is not the lift/lower control, and as soon as you get up to speed (20mph ish) the mid lift will drop back down again (usually), so when you get up to about 30mph when emptyish have quick glance down and check the amber lift light is still lit, its too easy to hit the umbrella button instead of the raise lower button, then you end up with the vehicle skittish as hell and you wonder why till you finally stop and then see the mid lift was down empty.

Some mid lift raise lower buttons are a bit finicky and in the most stupid places, MAN i’m looking at you here with your idiotic VW inspired red back lighting which can’t bee seen properly where you sited the switches, and you’ll have to have a play with the raise lower to see exactly how it works and when, there are no hard and fast rules here.
Generally (Axor excepted, there may be others) once over a certain weight the up/down button will not function so its dump valve only.
I also recall my Volvo FM’s automatically raising the axle once unloaded, but only after switching off and restarting, but these were aftermarket mid lifts which were never correctly switched in the first place and had to be retrofitted with dump valves…a story for another day…how normal Volvo’s behave now i haven’t a clue.

There’s probably lots more i haven’t covered but thats enough waffle for now.

really appreciate Juddian,

i would probably need to read your post couple of times before everything settles in mind.

the first question is on the dump air valve - do i get it right that it basically puts the axle into a “mid-level” position?

Priest:
really appreciate Juddian,

i would probably need to read your post couple of times before everything settles in mind.

the first question is on the dump air valve - do i get it right that it basically puts the axle into a “mid-level” position?

You’re very welcome, yes it’s a lot to take in and i do tend to waffle, someone else could probably have condensed the whole lot into one paragraph… :blush:

The mid lift air dump valve (not the raise/lower button) isn’t driver variable (unless someone who drives something that is variable has this facility, i’m always happy to be put right), so when you operate it all the air is drained from the mid lift air bags so the axle is basically just touching the ground, as i mentioned above on some lorries (MAN’s with small mid lift, presumably the full size wheels are the same) the mid lift will raise fully after about 10 to 15 seconds provided you have a good amount of air pressure…remember MAN’s have a useless compressor nowhere near powerful enough for the job so if you get one get an eye on pressures, it can 10 minutes to blow a six axle motor up to pressure with an MAN on fast idle.

On some vehicles, Scanias i know this is the case, when you operate the air dump a screen will come up showing you the approximate tonnage transferring from the mid to the drive axle.
Remember on nearly all lorries once loaded and you get over 20mph neither the lift nor dump valves will operate, when empty you can lift the axle at speed if you left it down by mistake but you wouldn’t really want to lower it.

Purely out of interest one place i go regularly the axle weigher and my lorry do not get on very well, the mid axle for some reason throws an error repeatedly, so i usually raise the mid lift via the dump valve (not the raise lower button whic will not operate loaded) which the machine is happy about…where my weights with all axles down would be roughly 6 tons, 5 tons, 9+ tons…with the mid lift up the two weights are now 7.2+ tons, 12.8+ tons…so you can see the drive has gained well over 3 tons, obviously technically well overloaded so you don’t go swanning off down the road willy nilly but that extra 3 tons and one less undriven axle to move in slippery conditions makes a big difference to get the thing moving.

I run in the new Actros most of the time, and to be honest I don’t have to deal with the lift axle very often.

The vehicle decides for itself whether the load is heavy enough to need the extra axle and will lower it automatically. That’s fine, I’m okay with that. When I’m manoeuvring at my destination I’ll use the manual control to redistribute the load onto the drive axle which makes low speed turns easier. Once the trailer is dropped I’ll manually lift the axle.

I tend to have to do this with some double decker loads, and when hauling a full trailer of liquids like wine bottles. The rest of the time there is an orange warning light in the dash telling me the lift axle is not deployed. That’s fine, I’m okay with that too.

I run a tag axle on mine, sometimes if the weight is enough it will drop it on its own. I’ve had the axle up when reversing out of the warehouse only for it to drop as I’m driving off. I also find that lifting and lowering of the axle messes up the ride height sensor. If the truck is not at road position then it thinks that its in crawler mode so auto selects gear 1, very annoying if you are rolling and the truck can’t decide whether it wants 4th or 1st. You have to stop, press up on the control box to lift the rear then press the auto level button and pray that it likes it then the box will default back to 4th.

cheers all,

what is that point about making things easier when turning with the axle up? i understand the bit about more weight - more grip, but can’t really get how that makes turning easier and the actual difficulties are

Priest:
cheers all,

what is that point about making things easier when turning with the axle up? i understand the bit about more weight - more grip, but can’t really get how that makes turning easier and the actual difficulties are

Only applies to tag axles which are lift and/or steer axle behind the driven axle, rather than in front of it. Very rare to see tag axle configs on modern trucks these days. Vast majority of 6 leggers have the driven axle at the back with a mid lift in front.

Priest:
cheers all,

what is that point about making things easier when turning with the axle up? i understand the bit about more weight - more grip, but can’t really get how that makes turning easier and the actual difficulties are

Reduces the pivot point. The more wheels on the deck, the more resistance you’ll get which affects turning. It’s kinda hard to explain but if you’ve ever driven anything with a tag then you’ll see why.

As Radar mentions, with a non steer mid lift up you’re not dragging yet another fixed axle round, the tractor will turn easier, lessens tyre scrub and is kinder to the mid lift bushes etc…if you have a middle axle which steers scrub isn’t an issue so the only real reason to dump the air when loaded is traction.

Good thread people! :smiley:

Very education, although a little verbose! :wink:

I don’t fully understand why, but when I’m trying to reverse with the lift axle down and an acute turn on the truck sometimes almost grinds to a halt. It is something to do with having the two sets of non-steering tyres on the ground, and really only one of them can be the pivot, so the other is just a drag. By transferring the weight to the drive axle the drag is reduced so manoeuvring becomes easier.

You have to feel it to understand, difficult to explain the sensation in words.

ORC:
I don’t fully understand why, but when I’m trying to reverse with the lift axle down and an acute turn on the truck sometimes almost grinds to a halt. It is something to do with having the two sets of non-steering tyres on the ground, and really only one of them can be the pivot, so the other is just a drag. By transferring the weight to the drive axle the drag is reduced so manoeuvring becomes easier.

You have to feel it to understand, difficult to explain the sensation in words.

That’s as good an explanation as any, simply put the drive axle which will have around 20/25% of the gross weight imposed on it is trying to push 5 axles sideways that want to go straight, little wonder it struggles sometimes.

One delivery of mine is as you describe, its on a one way street and its a jack knife reverse uphill and into a tight entrance on the nearside which steepens sharply as you go through the gate.
The vehicle will not make it without dumping the tag air, and even then traction control cuts power as soon as wheelslip is detected, and seeing as its ZF’s arsetronic box it comes to a complete halt and necessitates a full power restart which again spins the wheel so again it cuts out, the only way to do this delivery is to switch off TC or ASR which then allows a wheel to slip slightly without cutting the power.

Not a simple subject to discus without becoming Verbose :open_mouth: and who rattled Evil’s bleedin cage anyhow :laughing:
PS i dropped an s off discuss to economise on words… :wink:

I would suggest lifting axles is silly.

Pure gym have better facilities.

I’m sorry, I was being appreciative about a good thread on a topic that most Newbie’s wouldn’t have a scooby doo about (That means clue mate! :wink:) As it’s not covered anywhere in a Newbie’s training, and only gets taught on the job. Which isn’t going to happen when Newbies are often agency when they start out…
I didn’t know anything about them, other than they existed. I knew they there to distribute the load & keep the axle weights within limit, and when empty these were normally lifted, but I hadn’t contemplated the effect on turning and traction until another driver explained it to me.

It’s a bit scary that Newbies are allowed out on the roads not fully understanding the characteristics and controls of their vehicles! :open_mouth:
This is why I did 2 days with an artic driver at my firm (unpaid) after I passed…

To be honest Evil there’s bloody stacks of things that don’t get taught, it’s wrong but condensing what should be a two weeks driving course into less than a week in some cases this is to be expected.

What you done, going out with an older man :open_mouth: :sunglasses: :grimacing: makes a lot of sense, in all honesty most trainers if they’ve been training a long time won’t have had recent years of on the job practice of things like the idionsyncracies of and how to get the best out of lift axles, diff locks and things, due to the type of driving they are involved in.

I think there’s a case for company driver trainers to take newbies, and older drivers too on new or new to them equipment, out and to help them learn how to make the most out of such things before they are needed which isn’t the time to be learning how stuff works.
Be far better use of their time than endless bloody assessments ticking boxes and doing walk round checks.

Its rare to see tags on artics, if you do have a tag on a tractor unit, be careful when bobtailing. You’ve now reduced the turning circle which could, in theory tip you over if you threw it round a corner.

Juddian:
To be honest Evil there’s bloody stacks of things that don’t get taught, it’s wrong but condensing what should be a two weeks driving course into less than a week in some cases this is to be expected.

What you done, going out with an older man :open_mouth: :sunglasses: :grimacing: makes a lot of sense, in all honesty most trainers if they’ve been training a long time won’t have had recent years of on the job practice of things like the idionsyncracies of and how to get the best out of lift axles, diff locks and things, due to the type of driving they are involved in.

I think there’s a case for company driver trainers to take newbies, and older drivers too on new or new to them equipment, out and to help them learn how to make the most out of such things before they are needed which isn’t the time to be learning how stuff works.
Be far better use of their time than endless bloody assessments ticking boxes and doing walk round checks.

To be honest, lift/tag, diff locks etc are specific to the job in hand. Trainers are there to teach you to drive which is normally done in a standard 2 axle config for both a rigid and an artic. If they are running a 6 wheeler rigid or artic then the lift or tag is up as they don’t carry the weight and its pointless having them on the deck as it wastes fuel and adds wear to the tyres. I believe its down to the employer to teach all the aspects of the job at hand, the person going for said job should already know how to drive a wagon.

These days, you don’t get taught jack unless you actively ask when on agency and thats where most newbies start. My first time in a 6 wheeler rigid ended up with me dragging the arse end down the side of another drivers cab!

No bugger’s teaching anyone Radar, unless some old bugger thats been doing it years happens to be there nothing is being passed on or taught proper like, as you say you just go and get bunged a set of keys, it was always the case to be fair but at one time there was always an old hand about who’d be happy to put you right, you try and find one now.

Anyway in the brave new world none of this is necessary now everythings been automated (read dumbed down),