Welshmale60:
cav551:
Carryfast is spot on with what he is saying.No one can answer your question because when this type of trailer is loaded, the ‘nose’ weight alters according to how heavy each pallet is and where it is on the trailer.
Ok so just an example 6 ton on the rigid 10’ton on the close coupled trailer would this be legal
Sorry 8 ton on the rigid and 10 ton on trailer
Gross train weight (GTW) is the total weight of the tractor unit plus trailer plus load (sometimes called gross
combination weight (GCW)).
ashcrofttrailer.co.uk/faqPDF … nsions.pdf
If the trailer is putting too much weight through the towing pin, then it is simply loaded too heavy at the front.
Many centre axle trailers have three axles towed behind a 4x2 rigid at 40 tonne GTW/GCW
If you look at a plating certificate, there is no distinction between a centre axle drawbar or an A frame drawbar
Wheel Nut:
Gross train weight (GTW) is the total weight of the tractor unit plus trailer plus load (sometimes called gross
combination weight (GCW)).ashcrofttrailer.co.uk/faqPDF … nsions.pdf
If the trailer is putting too much weight through the towing pin, then it is simply loaded too heavy at the front.
Many centre axle trailers have three axles towed behind a 4x2 rigid at 40 tonne GTW/GCW
flickr.com/photos/essex999/6904031832/ this is what.im driving to give you more of a idea
Welshmale60:
Wheel Nut:
Gross train weight (GTW) is the total weight of the tractor unit plus trailer plus load (sometimes called gross
combination weight (GCW)).ashcrofttrailer.co.uk/faqPDF … nsions.pdf
If the trailer is putting too much weight through the towing pin, then it is simply loaded too heavy at the front.
Many centre axle trailers have three axles towed behind a 4x2 rigid at 40 tonne GTW/GCW
flickr.com/photos/essex999/6904031832/ this is what.im driving to give you more of a idea
You need to take a photo of the plating certificate and the trailer plate.
The picture below is exactly the same except it has one more axle.
Welshmale60:
Welshmale60:
cav551:
Carryfast is spot on with what he is saying.No one can answer your question because when this type of trailer is loaded, the ‘nose’ weight alters according to how heavy each pallet is and where it is on the trailer.
Ok so just an example 6 ton on the rigid 10’ton on the close coupled trailer would this be legal
Sorry 8 ton on the rigid and 10 ton on trailer
You cannot be as simplistic as that
Wheel Nut:
Gross train weight (GTW) is the total weight of the tractor unit plus trailer plus load (sometimes called gross
combination weight (GCW)).ashcrofttrailer.co.uk/faqPDF … nsions.pdf
If the trailer is putting too much weight through the towing pin, then it is simply loaded too heavy at the front.
Many centre axle trailers have three axles towed behind a 4x2 rigid at 40 tonne GTW/GCW
So now GCW and GTW are the same things and an A frame drawbar outfit is a combination the same as an artic or a close coupled drawbar outfit and an artic or a close coupled drawbar outfit is a train the same an A frame drawbar outfit. 
While if that’s right you could load a close coupled trailer so that it’s weight is balanced to the point where there’s no nose weight and/or weight transfer between the trailer and the prime mover at the coupling like a conventional A frame type drawbar.It’s not a case of too much weight through the pin it’s a case of any serious weight if the prime mover is already maxed out 
.
Carryfast:
Wheel Nut:
Gross train weight (GTW) is the total weight of the tractor unit plus trailer plus load (sometimes called gross
combination weight (GCW)).ashcrofttrailer.co.uk/faqPDF … nsions.pdf
If the trailer is putting too much weight through the towing pin, then it is simply loaded too heavy at the front.
Many centre axle trailers have three axles towed behind a 4x2 rigid at 40 tonne GTW/GCW
So now GCW and GTW are the same things and an A frame drawbar outfit is a combination the same as an artic or a close coupled drawbar outfit and an artic or a close coupled drawbar outfit is a train the same an A frame drawbar outfit.
While if that’s right you could load a close coupled trailer so that it’s weight is balanced to the point where there’s no nose weight and/or weight transfer between the trailer and the prime mover at the coupling like a conventional A frame type drawbar.It’s not a case of too much weight through the pin it’s a case of any serious weight if the prime mover is already maxed out
Sorry to disappoint you but your beloved conventional A frame is now old hat even in Europe.
You never had any nose weight on your carryfast rulley, why should you have some now? it is the axles that carry the weight. The clue is in the name. DRAW bar, meaning to drag or pull.
If you have ever seen a German articulated vehicle, the trailer is known as a Sattelauflieger. It means saddle trailer, it sits on the horse, the alternative type is Anhänger which is pulled or hangs behind the horse.
Wheel Nut:
Carryfast:
Wheel Nut:
Gross train weight (GTW) is the total weight of the tractor unit plus trailer plus load (sometimes called gross
combination weight (GCW)).ashcrofttrailer.co.uk/faqPDF … nsions.pdf
If the trailer is putting too much weight through the towing pin, then it is simply loaded too heavy at the front.
Many centre axle trailers have three axles towed behind a 4x2 rigid at 40 tonne GTW/GCW
So now GCW and GTW are the same things and an A frame drawbar outfit is a combination the same as an artic or a close coupled drawbar outfit and an artic or a close coupled drawbar outfit is a train the same an A frame drawbar outfit.
While if that’s right you could load a close coupled trailer so that it’s weight is balanced to the point where there’s no nose weight and/or weight transfer between the trailer and the prime mover at the coupling like a conventional A frame type drawbar.It’s not a case of too much weight through the pin it’s a case of any serious weight if the prime mover is already maxed out
Sorry to disappoint you but your beloved conventional A frame is now old hat even in Europe.
You never had any nose weight on your carryfast rulley, why should you have some now? it is the axles that carry the weight. The clue is in the name. DRAW bar, meaning to drag or pull.
Which,assuming the prime mover is running maxed out,obviously means that weight distribution of the close coupled trailer would need to be kept almost equal at all times front to rear to keep the noseweight down to almost zero while keeping the front loaded sufficiently to stop zero or negative noseweight unlike having a proper A frame trailer.That’s supposed to be progress.
Wheel Nut:
If you have ever seen a German articulated vehicle, the trailer is known as a Sattelauflieger. It means saddle trailer, it sits on the horse, the alternative type is Anhänger which is pulled or hangs behind the horse.
But there’s a big difference between pulling a loaded close coupled type trailer,behind a maxed out loaded prime mover, compared to the A frame type,in terms of trailer weight distribution being critical.Whereas with the A frame type there’s no chance of the trailer being able to overload the prime mover regardless of trailer load weight distribution. 
Maybe that’s why they don’t use the close coupled trailer idea for those max weight scandinavian drawbars.
If your normal loads are heavy then your company has a problem which they need to be aware of. They and you have been woken up to the fact and need to do something to prevent overloading. Vosa enforcement are not fools, they deliberately target vehicles they suspect there may be a chance of finding fault with. Partially loaded rigids and artics can quite easily have overloaded axles; which is why they stop them. Similarly, centre axle drawbar trailers can cause overloads on the towing vehicle which is why they stop them too.
Probably the majority of these trailer combinations in use either run below their maximum weight, or if fully loaded have access to a weighbridge.
The trailer manufacturer will be able to explain to your company what the craic is. These trailers, just like a caravan, are supposed to be loaded evenly. Like a caravan, there will be an assumed and maximum ‘nose’ weight, but since the trailer is effectively a see-saw this varies in practice if the load is not evenly distributed.
If your loads are normally heavy then the simplest solution is probably to have an on board axle weighing system fitted to the vehicle, which is what is fitted to many bulkers.
If heavy loads are infrequent, then split weigh the vehicle and trailer on those occasions.
Mike-C:
Saaamon:
with the example you’ve given there you’d have overloaded the unit but could still be legal on your axle weights.I’d of thought this an impossibility. Its either within the constraints of its authorised train weight/MAM/GVTW whatever you wanna call it or its not. You can’t weigh them seperatley tractor/trailer? It just needs to comply with its authorised axle weights and authorised mass.
Was thinking of a unit that had say a nine ton front axle, on a 4wheeler though id agree it would be very difficult/impossible, but a possibility on a 6wheeler. Was just trying to highlight to the OP the importance of axle weights and how they change.
I often use this made up example when explaining weights after explaining what the weights mean
GVW = the maximum the vehicle can be when fully laden
MAM = the max the trailer can be when fully loaded
GTW = the maximum both can be when placed on a weighbridge together or put another way … the actual weight of the lot !!
Vehicle
Unladen 10 tonnes
GVW 26 tonnes
GTW 44 tonnes
Payload 16 tonnes
Trailer
Unladen 8 tonnes
MAM 24 tonnes
Payload 16 tonnes
Total unladen weight = 18 tonnes (10+8=18)
GTW minus unladen weight = 26 tonnes (44-18=26)
26 tonnes is the maximum payload
That 26 tonnes payload can be distributed between the vehicle and trailer as the driver sees fit but neither the vehicle GVW or trailer MAM can be exceeded
Axle weights are also another consideration because none of those can be exceeded and that can be an issue if the driver does not have access to an axle weighbridge
For safety it is highly recommended to make the vehicle heavier than the trailer/drag otherwise it can get the senario of ‘the tail wagging the dog’
What can get really funny is when some wannabe traffic cop decides that the combination of plated weights is illegal because the vehicle GVW 26 tonnes added to the trailer MAM 24 tonnes is more than the GTW 44 tonnes !!
Another funny one is when a a cop pulled a C1 (no trailer) when the driver had only pre 1997 C1 and C1+E 107 on their licence and tried to do the driver for driving over what their licence allowed because the GTW stated 12 tonnes !!
stevieboy308:
how can you get ticked off for being very close to the limit??
I got told off by Customs and Excise at Ramsgate once for not having any cigarettes.
cav551:
If your normal loads are heavy then your company has a problem which they need to be aware of. They and you have been woken up to the fact and need to do something to prevent overloading. Vosa enforcement are not fools, they deliberately target vehicles they suspect that there may be a chance of finding fault with. Partially loaded rigids and artics can quite easily have overloaded axles; which is why they stop them. Similarly, centre axle drawbar trailers can cause overloads on the towing vehicle which is why they stop them too.Probably the majority of these trailer combinations in use either run below their maximum weight, or if fully loaded have access to a weighbridge.
The trailer manufacturer will be able to explain to your company what the craic is. These trailers, just like a caravan, are supposed to be loaded evenly. Like a caravan, there will be an assumed and maximum ‘nose’ weight, but since the trailer is effectively a see-saw this varies in practice if the load is not evenly distributed.
If your loads are normally heavy then the simplest solution is probably to have an on board axle weighing system fitted to the vehicle, which is what is fitted to many bulkers.
^ This.
But the issue of not differentiating gross train weights,as opposed to gross combination weights,and the move to the close coupled type,as opposed to the A frame type,to run at max weights,actually makes the situation much worse.Whereas using A frame drawbar outfits would reduce those issues to almost negligable levels.
But by all accounts there seems to be a difference to the nose weight requirements for caravans required for stability compared to those for close couple trailer outfits which are effectively just a bigger,heavier,version of the same thing but which,unlike caravans,seem to be run on the basis of almost zero nose weight. Which would probably be impossible in the real world in most cases anyway.It seems obvious that it’s the A frame type trailer that is needed for heavy vehicle applications.
While the idea of Gross Train Weight being seen as the same thing as Gross Combination Weight seems just stupid.
Welshmale60:
Ok Answers on a post cardSo what can a 18ton maxed out single wheel based rigid legally carry On a close coupled type drawbar twin axle trailer does anybody know thanks
For the front end: 18t minus the unladen weight, making sure none of the individual axle weights are exceeded.
For the rear end: Whatever the plated weight of the trailer is minus the unladen weight of the trailer, making sure none of the individual axle weights are exceeded.
For the entire combination: Whatever the Gross Train Weight is on the plating certificate minus the unladen weight of the unit and the trailer making sure that the individual axle weights are not exceeded.
ALL THREE NEED TO BE COMPLIED WITH and the failure to comply with any one of the above can result in prosecution for overloading.
Without knowing what the unladen weights are of the unit and the trailer, you cannot work out what load you can carry. Take an artic. There’s going on for three tonnes difference between a Scania pulling an old type leaf springed tri-axle trailer and an ERF EC11 pulling a super lightweight tri-axle trailer.
Conor:
Welshmale60:
Ok Answers on a post cardSo what can a 18ton maxed out single wheel based rigid legally carry On a close coupled type drawbar twin axle trailer does anybody know thanks
For the front end: 18t minus the unladen weight, making sure none of the individual axle weights are exceeded.
For the rear end: Whatever the plated weight of the trailer is minus the unladen weight of the trailer, making sure none of the individual axle weights are exceeded.
For the entire combination: Whatever the Gross Train Weight is on the plating certificate minus the unladen weight of the unit and the trailer making sure that the individual axle weights are not exceeded.
ALL THREE NEED TO BE COMPLIED WITH and the failure to comply with any one of the above can result in prosecution for overloading.
It seems obvious that treating such an outfit as subject to gross ‘train’ weight is flawed and will obviously result in a prime mover axle overload,or prime mover gross weight overload,at some point.Train weight really shouldn’t be applicable in the case of any type of outfit in wich the trailer can impose a load on the vehicle pulling it.
