Petrol and diesel cars to be phased out within 20 years?

Carryfast:

lancpudn:
Blimey! So it begins! Bristol council considers banning all privately owned diesel cars :open_mouth:
"It would mean a ban on all privately-owned diesel vehicles together with a charging zone for non-compliant commercial vehicles such as buses, taxis, HGVs and LGVs.

A car scrappage scheme would also be launched." localgov.co.uk/Bristol-coun … cles/48435

These commy zbwits haven’t got a clue regarding the economic zb storm which all this will kick off.Scrappage scheme for a new car on a 3 year lease :open_mouth: :laughing: and numerous residents all trying to sell up to move somewhere else where they can keep their car and no one wanting to move there.That’ll work.Suddenly loads of negative equity in the car and the bonus of the house too. :unamused:

While if the council had any sense the rule wouldn’t be applied retrospectively and the ‘scrappage scheme’ would be replaced with a grant towards petrol car purchases up to 5 years old.

The councils that make up the south-west region, Bristol, Bath, North East Somerset, South Gloucestershire and North Somerset are now getting in on having their own super charging network with the majority being 100% renewable clean energy EV charging network called Revive. airqualitynews.com/2019/11/26/c … outh-west/

lancpudn:

Carryfast:

lancpudn:
Blimey! So it begins! Bristol council considers banning all privately owned diesel cars :open_mouth:
"It would mean a ban on all privately-owned diesel vehicles together with a charging zone for non-compliant commercial vehicles such as buses, taxis, HGVs and LGVs.

A car scrappage scheme would also be launched." localgov.co.uk/Bristol-coun … cles/48435

These commy zbwits haven’t got a clue regarding the economic zb storm which all this will kick off.Scrappage scheme for a new car on a 3 year lease :open_mouth: :laughing: and numerous residents all trying to sell up to move somewhere else where they can keep their car and no one wanting to move there.That’ll work.Suddenly loads of negative equity in the car and the bonus of the house too. :unamused:

While if the council had any sense the rule wouldn’t be applied retrospectively and the ‘scrappage scheme’ would be replaced with a grant towards petrol car purchases up to 5 years old.

The councils that make up the south-west region, Bristol, Bath, North East Somerset, South Gloucestershire and North Somerset are now getting in on having their own super charging network with 100% renewable clean energy EV charging network called Revive. airqualitynews.com/2019/11/26/c … outh-west/

120 new charge points across the entire region, but they not all increasing what’s available already, some are replacing existing charge points, and they’re not all using renewable energy.
A bit of political spin there methinks.

muckles:
120 new charge points across the entire region, but they not all increasing what’s available already, some are replacing existing charge points, and they’re not all using renewable energy.
A bit of political spin there methinks.

Only the most naive green nutter activists could possibly believe that this whole plan isn’t all about creating a captive market for the EV/Battery/Power suppliers and that they’ll replace what they know is the non issue of fossil fuel use,with the eventual and inevitable,catastrophic one of nuclear power when,not if,it goes horribly wrong.Zbwits all of em.

Carryfast:

muckles:
120 new charge points across the entire region, but they not all increasing what’s available already, some are replacing existing charge points, and they’re not all using renewable energy.
A bit of political spin there methinks.

Only the most naive green nutter activists could possibly believe that this whole plan isn’t all about creating a captive market for the EV/Battery/Power suppliers and that they’ll replace what they know is the non issue of fossil fuel use,with the eventual and inevitable,catastrophic one of nuclear power when,not if,it goes horribly wrong.Zbwits all of em.

As opposed to the captive market for fossil fuel companies and major producing countries which we must not upset despite the atrocious carried out by their regimes?

muckles:

Carryfast:
Only the most naive green nutter activists could possibly believe that this whole plan isn’t all about creating a captive market for the EV/Battery/Power suppliers and that they’ll replace what they know is the non issue of fossil fuel use,with the eventual and inevitable,catastrophic one of nuclear power when,not if,it goes horribly wrong.Zbwits all of em.

As opposed to the captive market for fossil fuel companies and major producing countries which we must not upset despite the atrocious carried out by their regimes?

The Arab savages are going to be carrying out their atrocities whether we buy their oil or not.

A relatively less captive market which still provides a much better value for money product for the price comparing the amount of energy contained within a gallon of petrol/diesel as opposed to the price per KWH of electricity.In addition to the monopoly held by the battery producers.

While it’s so much better for a small highly populated Island to impose all the risks of a nuclear disaster on it.While sitting on mountains of coal and flogging off an Ocean of oil and gas reserves to foreign interests.

I read today that Audi are investing $12billion in BEV’s and at the same time announced they will be cutting their workforce by 10% by 2025. :cry:

Edit: Blimey! Daimler Benz just announced 10000 job cuts before 2022 :open_mouth:

lancpudn:
Blimey! So it begins! Bristol council considers banning all privately owned diesel cars :open_mouth:
"It would mean a ban on all privately-owned diesel vehicles together with a charging zone for non-compliant commercial vehicles such as buses, taxis, HGVs and LGVs.

A car scrappage scheme would also be launched." localgov.co.uk/Bristol-coun … cles/48435

LOL! You couldn’t make it up! transport-network.co.uk/Bri … tion/16329

Blimey just been reading about the pollution tax the French are putting on SUV’s & Trucks from the 1st January 2020, a pollution tax of €20000 is being implemented because they’re way behind on their Paris accord commitments, The UK has a worse record than France & is up in the European court next over failing to meet their emission commitments.
I expect the UK government to come up with the same. :open_mouth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2-BC8FHyrs&feature=emb_title

It appears F1 don’t think EV’s are the future for them, they’re looking into using a modern 2 stroke engine design and a fuel made from Hydrogen and Carbon using green energy. They also want to use the fuel for the logistics operation that F1 require, with the aim to reduce their carbon footprint and to be carbon neutral by 2030.

Another interesting paragraph in the article was about the batteries used in the Formula E championship.

Research presented at the conference showed that electric racing cars could be responsible for twice the level of carbon emissions as hybrid racing cars, because of the amount produced when building the batteries.

motorsportmagazine.com/news … Efq6j-83kI

muckles:
It appears F1 don’t think EV’s are the future for them, they’re looking into using a modern 2 stroke engine design and a fuel made from Hydrogen and Carbon using green energy. They also want to use the fuel for the logistics operation that F1 require, with the aim to reduce their carbon footprint and to be carbon neutral by 2030.

Another interesting paragraph in the article was about the batteries used in the Formula E championship.

Research presented at the conference showed that electric racing cars could be responsible for twice the level of carbon emissions as hybrid racing cars, because of the amount produced when building the batteries.

motorsportmagazine.com/news … Efq6j-83kI

Interesting post.
One para jumped out at me from the linked article:
“The new engines are likely to remain hybrids but powered by synthetic fuel, made by combining hydrogen with carbon captured from the air, using surplus green energy.”
Nice to see that the energy crisis has been resolved already isn`t it? A green energy surplus! :smiley:

Good point made about taking into account all environmental costs when looking at energy uses. The true cost of batteries does need to be examined.
Without seeing the full articles and their sources can we be sure that the cost of batteries is looked at as fairly as the source of “surplus green energy”?

Franglais:

muckles:
It appears F1 don’t think EV’s are the future for them, they’re looking into using a modern 2 stroke engine design and a fuel made from Hydrogen and Carbon using green energy. They also want to use the fuel for the logistics operation that F1 require, with the aim to reduce their carbon footprint and to be carbon neutral by 2030.

Another interesting paragraph in the article was about the batteries used in the Formula E championship.

Research presented at the conference showed that electric racing cars could be responsible for twice the level of carbon emissions as hybrid racing cars, because of the amount produced when building the batteries.

motorsportmagazine.com/news … Efq6j-83kI

Interesting post.
One para jumped out at me from the linked article:
“The new engines are likely to remain hybrids but powered by synthetic fuel, made by combining hydrogen with carbon captured from the air, using surplus green energy.”
Nice to see that the energy crisis has been resolved already isn`t it? A green energy surplus! :smiley:

Good point made about taking into account all environmental costs when looking at energy uses. The true cost of batteries does need to be examined.
Without seeing the full articles and their sources can we be sure that the cost of batteries is looked at as fairly as the source of “surplus green energy”?

I also would like to see the research into the carbon produced in battery production, but they did present their research at a conference, so I assume it could be challenged by those attending and as it’s in the open by others in the industry.

My understanding is the carbon produced in the production of a car is the equivalent of 5 years of driving a normal internal combustion engine car. So maybe if you’re a low mileage driver the greenest solution would be to have an old car, properly serviced, as each year you’d reduce the overall lifetime carbon footprint of that vehicle, but of course that wouldn’t make the manufacturers very happy and there is still an issue of local emissions especially in urban areas.

To take that further, surely keeping stuff longer, buying less stuff and buying more locally produced stuff seems to make sense to me, but again that doesn’t suit our global capitalist system.

I know a lot of automotive engineers who believe that battery EV’s are not a long term solution, and there is a problem with the long supply of some raw materials as demand increases and issues recycling old batteries, I understand it’s a complex and potentially dangerous process, although no doubt this might change if there is a profit to be made and therefore investment can go into the process.

So this type of engine running on a renewable fuel source might offer a solution or at least another option to ran alongside EV’s, it also might offer a solution to powering trucks, where heavy batteries reduces payload, plus as we know finding parking at night can be difficult, when often you see trucks parked on entrance and exits of services areas across Europe, so supplying enough space let alone access to charging point for them might be challenging to say the least, let alone the power required to charge them all.

Good post again, Muckles.

muckles:
To take that further, surely keeping stuff longer, buying less stuff and buying more locally produced stuff seems to make sense to me, but again that doesn’t suit our global capitalist system.

Totally agree.
Plus the “elephant in the room”, of increasing population and it seems what we are discussing is merely fiddling around at the edges.

Re-cycling of rare earth elements will be necessary, and copper, relatively safe, will be in higher demand too.
I think batteries will still be useful, for energy recuperation during braking, but as you suggest, pure battery power in trucks, may be of limited practical use.

Franglais:
I think batteries will still be useful, for energy recuperation during braking, but as you suggest, pure battery power in trucks, may be of limited practical use.

Some figures.

1 gallon of diesel contains 48 KWH.Electricity costs more than 15p per KWH + road fuel duty + battery costs + weight of Batteries ( 270 kg to get the same 48 KWH as the gallon of diesel ).Oh and trees love CO2 and in exchange give us Oxygen for it.While nuclear energy has the potential to turn a large part of the country into Chernobyl IE as bad as nuclear warfare.HTH.

Well the 95g/km emission limit kicked in on the 1st January which 95% of car manufacturers wanting to sell cars in Europe have to adhere to. From what I’ve read some car manufacturers are nowhere near the new emission limit and are frantically bringing in PHEV models to comply. I see more mergers on the cards to reduce R&D costs.

FCA (Fiat Chrysler Automobiles) have thrown in the towel and made a deal with Tesla for emission credits to the tune of €1.8billion which FCA will pay Tesla in quarterly instalments of €150million between 2020-2023 :open_mouth:
Tesla have effectively got a free gigafactory 4 because of European regulations, The plot near Berlin was agreed last week and bought for €41million.

lancpudn:
Well the 95g/km emission limit kicked in on the 1st January which 95% of car manufacturers wanting to sell cars in Europe have to adhere to. From what I’ve read some car manufacturers are nowhere near the new emission limit and are frantically bringing in PHEV models to comply. I see more mergers on the cards to reduce R&D costs.

FCA (Fiat Chrysler Automobiles) have thrown in the towel and made a deal with Tesla for emission credits to the tune of €1.8billion which FCA will pay Tesla in quarterly instalments of €150million between 2020-2023 :open_mouth:
Tesla have effectively got a free gigafactory 4 because of European regulations, The plot near Berlin was agreed last week and bought for €41million.

How are we tied to what Europe wants as of 31st January.So Tesla gets a factory but no one wants or can afford to buy/run its products.Meanwhile we obviously still have a choice.

cadillac.co.uk

Carryfast:

lancpudn:
Well the 95g/km emission limit kicked in on the 1st January which 95% of car manufacturers wanting to sell cars in Europe have to adhere to. From what I’ve read some car manufacturers are nowhere near the new emission limit and are frantically bringing in PHEV models to comply. I see more mergers on the cards to reduce R&D costs.

FCA (Fiat Chrysler Automobiles) have thrown in the towel and made a deal with Tesla for emission credits to the tune of €1.8billion which FCA will pay Tesla in quarterly instalments of €150million between 2020-2023 :open_mouth:
Tesla have effectively got a free gigafactory 4 because of European regulations, The plot near Berlin was agreed last week and bought for €41million.

How are we tied to what Europe wants as of 31st January.So Tesla gets a factory but no one wants or can afford to buy/run its products.Meanwhile we obviously still have a choice.

cadillac.co.uk

The environmental bill that came out in Oct2019 was to underpin & mirror the emission standards of the EU. the decarbonization of transport is to do with our Paris accord commitments.
There are 195 states/countries that are signed up to the Paris accord most of which are not in the European union and they are bound by these climate commitments too.

I read today that they are looking into closing the loophole whereas you can regenerate/clean the DPF in your diesel car :open_mouth: Nissan Qashqai & Vauxhall/Opel Astra being the worst of the lot. transportenvironment.org/pr … vels-tests

I see Birmingham’s proposals are in the press today. bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b … m-51088499

transportenvironment.org/ne … -years-ago

The lower end of the estimate, 61kg – with a high renewable electricity mix – is very close to what other authoritative sources measured in 2019 such as the study prepared for the European Commission (77 kgCO2/kWh) and the much cited Argonne National Lab study (65 kgCO2/kWh). In fact, the large range of the estimate is mainly dependant on the energy mix used to manufacture batteries.

Interesting article, I did wonder what the carbon footprint of an EV battery was, according to my calculations using the lowest figure of 61kg of carbon for each kwh of capacity and a basic Tesla 3 battery being 55kwh was 3.3t of carbon the long range 75kWh one which gives a more usable range came out at 4.6t and the Ipace at 90kWh is 5.4t

That along with another article saying a basic car such as an Citroen C1 produced 6 tonne of Carbon during production, a Mondeo produced 17t and a Landrover Discovery 35t,

Therefore I would say for a low mileage driver say 5000 miles a year the option with the lowest carbon footprint would be to get a properly serviced small car about 5 years old so it comes into the 130g/km level, which produces about 1t of carbon a year from fuel, of course there is more to that, there is the cost of extraction, refining and transportation and a bit from servicing and parts.
That along with looking at public transport as an option for some journeys, even in the wilds of Norfolk I try and use the train where possible, even used trains to get back to Spa to pick up a truck which we’d left there, was probably far easier and more enjoyable than getting on a plane.

Maybe to go completely carbon neutral offset the carbon with a bit of tree planting, apparently 4 mature trees would offset 1 tonne of carbon.

Of course the higher the annual mileage the more the calculations change, personally I wonder why there isn’t a big push to get parcel delivery companies to use Electric vans at least for urban work, I would have thought stop start jobs would suit such a vehicle. The same with taxi’s, and that brings me to this article, all these people so who think Uber is such a great thing mostly seem to be the same generation who are shouting about the environment.

transportenvironment.org/ne … e-revealed

lancpudn:

Carryfast:
How are we tied to what Europe wants as of 31st January.So Tesla gets a factory but no one wants or can afford to buy/run its products.Meanwhile we obviously still have a choice.

cadillac.co.uk

The environmental bill that came out in Oct2019 was to underpin & mirror the emission standards of the EU. the decarbonization of transport is to do with our Paris accord commitments.
There are 195 states/countries that are signed up to the Paris accord most of which are not in the European union and they are bound by these climate commitments too.

In other words the Tory Party acting like LibDems in all but name to go with their bs BRINO.It’s obvious that the Paris Accord is just a charter for a nuclear nightmare sooner or later to benefit the French nuclear energy industry.It’s equally obvious that they won’t stop at transport they’ll also outlaw domestic gas appliance use.Good luck with replacing a 25 KW + gas boiler with electric at almost 20p per KWH.