Franglais:
£850 quid for one incident? After how many nights parked? You shouldnt take one incident and extrapolate for a year, but it doesnt look too hopeful does it? If the parking costs £30 without security and £60 with, as Chris is guesstimating it would be cheaper to pay that for nearly thirty nights wouldn`t it.
And does that £850 take account of all the costs? Time taken in sorting out the mess, and any reputational losses if an innocent haulier gets the load nicked more than once?
Here is the quote from the petition:
The cost of my repairs is £850 + VAT (approx) in 8 weeks, equal to a drivers wage.
Now firstly I think that his potential drivers will be a bit upset at only being paid £100/week. But that aside if we assume that this happens every month (which seems unlikely). Then we are talking about £100ish a week. Again that sounds ridiculously high - but I don’t know for sure.
If Neil is tramping 5 nights a week. An increase in rates by £20 means that you have no net gain. However as we have both said - no system would be perfect. So there would still be some damage/theft. So he’d lose out.
I actually agree we need to pay more tax. And we deserve better public services. A lot better. I would probably focus on other areas before this though. Once we have mental health services which are not a national disgrace - and trials are not collapsing because the police and cpc don’t have the resources then I’d look at it.
I don’t think we are a million miles away in how we look at things. But franky… I just think if drivers want security then they should look in the mirror. At night I go into services to get my 45’s. And there is never a lack of people around. Why are they not keeping an eye out? I know it’s not their job - but it would make a bigger difference than a single man in a van.
Franglais:
What about Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations? Isnt it fair to expect a basic level of security in return for your twenty or thirty quid? (No, I don`t think any private case would get too far!)
Not in my opinion. You are conflating the service you want to the one offered.
I might want a steak and chips - but if I go into a restaurant and pay for a salad I can’t claim to have been swindled because I got what I paid for.
Service areas do not offer a security service. They don’t claim to provide this. They say you can park at your own risk for a given amount of money. Just because some people want a different product doesn’t mean that a business has to provide it.
I can see the frustration. But there are two realities. 1 - if there was really the demand for this it would be provided. A smart business person would be offering secure parking and making a lot of money. 2 - the cost of the security would be far far more than what is being suggested. Call up a security firm and ask how much for 24 hour permanent security coverage. Then add the cost of the gates and barriers. The idea you’d only offer the security at night is laughable. What about the night trampers? What about the guys parking up for a 45?
And after you had all that security… there would still be damage and thefts. You also want the parking provider to pay for that damage? After they have done their best…
So how much do you think this dream parking service would cost? I can tell you now Neil would not pay for it and he would happily accept the £850 it’s cost him. Which is why this is a none starter. It’s not going to happen and those who think it is are living in the clouds.
I dont think we are discussing a free market situation. When we need a parking area we have limited choice about where to go, and as already pointed out the commercial sector cant buy land to provide a choice because of planning regs.
There is no suggestion from me for security gates and dog patrols, just a bit more camera coverage with a human being on site doing an occasional walkround. Would the parking company be responsible for compensating for losses? Again, Im not suggesting that, the expectation is for a service of reasonable quality. Look at this: from the Consumer Protection Act "The regulation prohibits practices that: contravene the requirements of professional diligence (defined as the standard of special skill and care that a trader may reasonably be expected to exercise towards consumers, which is commensurate with either honest market practice in the trader's field of activity or the general principle of good faith in the trader's field of activity)" I would suggest that a parking company wouldnt be expected to have dog patrols etc, BUT a reasonable consumer would expect some level of duty of care for security. Taking £30 quid and then closing your eyes isnt a reasonable exchange IMHO. It doesnt even have to be a permanent guard does it? One guard in a van doing maybe both sides of two MSAs? Enough of a deterrent? Interrupt one or two thieves would make it less attractive than the seemingly risk free job it is now? And Ill repeat no need for any guard to "have a go", just phone the police. And Ill repeat the previous point, I dont think truck parking should be a purely commercial transaction, it should be more of a joined up piece of planing by local and national governments. We pay taxes, we deserve better policing of public spaces, and Ill willing pay more for it. I reckon Id rather pay a bit more to live in a society where crime really doesnt pay. For a cynical old bugger I still have a pair of rosy specs in my pocket!
£850 quid for one incident? After how many nights parked? You shouldnt take one incident and extrapolate for a year, but it doesnt look too hopeful does it? If the parking costs £30 without security and £60 with, as Chris is guesstimating it would be cheaper to pay that for nearly thirty nights wouldn`t it.
And does that £850 take account of all the costs? Time taken in sorting out the mess, and any reputational losses if an innocent haulier gets the load nicked more than once?
I think you’re living in cloud cuckoo land, Franglais! Sorry to say.
Your notion that the police would be even slightly interested in putting down their doughnuts and investigating some crime in progress is… sweet. But here’s the reality of what actually happens (a thread from just 2 days ago). The police could not be less interested in preventing or even solving crimes if they tried. A fully insured vehicle and load on private land being emptied by some scrotes would not even cause them to raise an eyebrow. Let the insurance deal with it. Civil matter, sir.
A security guard doing a walk round or drive by would not change a thing as most of the thefts are being done by the drivers themselves. Think about it : if you’ve got a load on which has some Ebay or Gumtree value then a couple of phone calls to your mates to bring down their ■■■■■■ van isn’t going to be difficult to arrange is it. 6 o’clock next day : “yeah boss, been done over through the night, the lot’s gone. No boss, never heard a thing, heavy sleeper me.” Company just fills in the insurance forms and everything carries on as normal.
sammym:
What has it got to do with the government if a company doesn’t provide the service you want?
Unless you plan on nationalizing truck parking I don’t think they have any right to demand commercial entities provide security. It’s up to you where you park - if the services are not secure you can always choose to do local runs and park at your own depot. But you are making a business decision to go further afield and park in these places.
Let’s extend this further - should the car park at Tesco’s provide security incase my car is broken into? Should the council provide security for my car on the street?
That sounds harsh - but it’s the truth. The government will have no interest in this. The only way the services will do it if it’s in their interest financially to do so.
As is so often the case young lad your argument is flawed, you don’t pay to park in Tesco’s or on the street so you have no right to expect any level of service, in an MSA you pay what, nigh on £30? Damned right they should provide a fat retired ex-regiment gangrene infested protector of the people.
I most certainly do pay to park on my street. I have to purchase a permit. And the amount paid is immaterial. I either accept the terms or I don’t.
I pay to park my car in Birmingham when I go shopping. Again I don’t think that the council or private car park should be responsible for securing my vehicle. If I want that service I can look for it - but the law should mean they have to give it. It’s a free market decision. If there was the demand it would be there. And it’s not so there isn’t.
All due respects. Your car is not worth upwards of 200k a day or what ever the truck and load costs… the point is the service stations have inadequate security, when you take say on average 50 trucks a night parking paying 30a throw … tell me a services can’t afford it … also, the government. Can pass an act ensuring security is reached to a higher standard … as for your car, if you don’t pay for your parking permit you will be fined and they will tow your car eventually.
OK, Ill accept that parking maybe isnt as high on the list as health, but isnt it related to justice shortcomings? There have always been thefts from trucks and once upon a time the whole truck would vanish during a tea break. But with more chance of detection and punishment woudnt these thefts diminish? We arent talking about "crimes of passion", more of a risk/reward calculation. Some seem to make a living at crime. More gov investment of our taxes in the police would surely be a worthy investment. And even a politician wouldnt say “I cant do the budget this year, because Im thinking about Brexit”!
Id say they arent capable of either, but as the saying goes they “couldn`t run a whelk stall” anyway!
Rob K:
I think you’re living in cloud cuckoo land, Franglais! Sorry to say.
Your notion that the police would be even slightly interested in putting down their doughnuts and investigating some crime in progress is… sweet. But here’s the reality of what actually happens (a thread from just 2 days ago). The police could not be less interested in preventing or even solving crimes if they tried. A fully insured vehicle and load on private land being emptied by some scrotes would not even cause them to raise an eyebrow. Let the insurance deal with it. Civil matter, sir.
Civil Matter? Theft, is Theft, is Theft, Surely? But leaving that aside if we can?
And why arent the cops interested enough to stop scoffing doughnuts? Well, maybe they are arent just eating fatty bread based snacks? Maybe they have other things to do and are understaffed? Pay a bit more on our taxes and maybe well eventually end up in a society where people arent afraid to park a car or truck because of the risk of theft or damage. Too many are seeing themselves as apart from the world they are part of.
And, yes maybe my world view is a bit twee and idealistic, at least thats a change from the cynicism Ive also been accused of!
robroy:
Would it not be easier just NOT to patronise these extortionate [zb] holes ■■
I know and you know that you’re going to be financially bummed just for parking a truck, receive overpriced and crap food at a discount…, and stand a bloody good chance of being turned over, so why not just park somewhere else.
You would be better off petioning the Insurance ombudsman to discourage the ridiculous insistence by some ins co.s, of HAVING to park there in order to be covered by insurance.
I aint signing any petition to help these [zb] s to gain more custom from financially stretched truck drivers, so …Sorry mate, but ‘It’s a no from me’
0
Whether you agree or not surely this is a time you truckers stuck together?? I even signed it from here in Australia (admittedly I am on Sunday night shift bored to hell ) surely you can help your fellow trucking brother
Rob K:
I think you’re living in cloud cuckoo land, Franglais! Sorry to say.
Your notion that the police would be even slightly interested in putting down their doughnuts and investigating some crime in progress is… sweet. But here’s the reality of what actually happens (a thread from just 2 days ago). The police could not be less interested in preventing or even solving crimes if they tried. A fully insured vehicle and load on private land being emptied by some scrotes would not even cause them to raise an eyebrow. Let the insurance deal with it. Civil matter, sir.
Civil Matter? Theft, is Theft, is Theft, Surely? But leaving that aside if we can?
And why arent the cops interested enough to stop scoffing doughnuts? Well, maybe they are arent just eating fatty bread based snacks? Maybe they have other things to do and are understaffed? Pay a bit more on our taxes and maybe well eventually end up in a society where people arent afraid to park a car or truck because of the risk of theft or damage. Too many are seeing themselves as apart from the world they are part of.
And, yes maybe my world view is a bit twee and idealistic, at least thats a change from the cynicism Ive also been accused of!
The public sector/service cuts and underfunding run far, far deeper than “just pay more taxes, duh” and in fact doing so would be highly unlikely to solve the issue anyway because the current system is rotten to the core. Taxes would not need to be increased if the existing credits were used wisely instead of wasted on pointless pet projects and other nonsense.
I’m afraid that your world view is extremely idealistic (do you even live in the UK as your post content suggests you do not?) but suffice to say that your MSA utopian paradise where Moto and Welcome Break will have armies of security officials roaming around 24/7 apprehending any miscreants is just pie in the sky.
As Sam said earlier in the thread : “The only way the services will do it if it’s in their interest financially to do so.” - and there isn’t one when truckers are queueing up down the slip road with the money in their hands.
Rob K:
most of the thefts are being done by the drivers themselves. Think about it : if you’ve got a load on which has some Ebay or Gumtree value then a couple of phone calls to your mates to bring down their ■■■■■■ van isn’t going to be difficult to arrange is it.
Come on mate!
If you want to say that is a possible scenario? OK, I daresay it happens.
But, “most thefts”?
Rob K:
most of the thefts are being done by the drivers themselves. Think about it : if you’ve got a load on which has some Ebay or Gumtree value then a couple of phone calls to your mates to bring down their ■■■■■■ van isn’t going to be difficult to arrange is it.
Come on mate!
If you want to say that is a possible scenario? OK, I daresay it happens.
But, “most thefts”?
Yes, in my opinion most of the thefts from trucks at MSAs are orchestrated by the drivers themselves, either there in person (the driver of the load, or a driver of another vehicle there) or the thefts are organised remotely by company drivers or company staff who know that the load is going to be there for the night.
I think the loads that are stolen by people like 3.14 keys are opportunistic and in the minority.
And apologies to NSmith if were getting into a political discussion rather than a more practical one. Seems to me wed ALL benefit from better MSAs, it aint compulsory to use em, but their existence is good for all.
And given they are almost the only real choice, and do charge for parking, shouldn`t they give some service for that charge? The money taken should be more than permission to stop and spend even more in their shops.
Franglais:
What about Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations? Isnt it fair to expect a basic level of security in return for your twenty or thirty quid? (No, I don`t think any private case would get too far!)
Not in my opinion. You are conflating the service you want to the one offered.
I might want a steak and chips - but if I go into a restaurant and pay for a salad I can’t claim to have been swindled because I got what I paid for.
Service areas do not offer a security service. They don’t claim to provide this. They say you can park at your own risk for a given amount of money. Just because some people want a different product doesn’t mean that a business has to provide it.
I can see the frustration. But there are two realities. 1 - if there was really the demand for this it would be provided. A smart business person would be offering secure parking and making a lot of money. 2 - the cost of the security would be far far more than what is being suggested. Call up a security firm and ask how much for 24 hour permanent security coverage. Then add the cost of the gates and barriers. The idea you’d only offer the security at night is laughable. What about the night trampers? What about the guys parking up for a 45?
And after you had all that security… there would still be damage and thefts. You also want the parking provider to pay for that damage? After they have done their best…
So how much do you think this dream parking service would cost? I can tell you now Neil would not pay for it and he would happily accept the £850 it’s cost him. Which is why this is a none starter. It’s not going to happen and those who think it is are living in the clouds.
I dont think we are discussing a free market situation. When we need a parking area we have limited choice about where to go, and as already pointed out the commercial sector cant buy land to provide a choice because of planning regs.
There is no suggestion from me for security gates and dog patrols, just a bit more camera coverage with a human being on site doing an occasional walkround. Would the parking company be responsible for compensating for losses? Again, Im not suggesting that, the expectation is for a service of reasonable quality. Look at this: from the Consumer Protection Act "The regulation prohibits practices that: contravene the requirements of professional diligence (defined as the standard of special skill and care that a trader may reasonably be expected to exercise towards consumers, which is commensurate with either honest market practice in the trader's field of activity or the general principle of good faith in the trader's field of activity)" I would suggest that a parking company wouldnt be expected to have dog patrols etc, BUT a reasonable consumer would expect some level of duty of care for security. Taking £30 quid and then closing your eyes isnt a reasonable exchange IMHO. It doesnt even have to be a permanent guard does it? One guard in a van doing maybe both sides of two MSAs? Enough of a deterrent? Interrupt one or two thieves would make it less attractive than the seemingly risk free job it is now? And Ill repeat no need for any guard to "have a go", just phone the police. And Ill repeat the previous point, I dont think truck parking should be a purely commercial transaction, it should be more of a joined up piece of planing by local and national governments. We pay taxes, we deserve better policing of public spaces, and Ill willing pay more for it. I reckon Id rather pay a bit more to live in a society where crime really doesnt pay. For a cynical old bugger I still have a pair of rosy specs in my pocket!
£850 quid for one incident? After how many nights parked? You shouldnt take one incident and extrapolate for a year, but it doesnt look too hopeful does it? If the parking costs £30 without security and £60 with, as Chris is guesstimating it would be cheaper to pay that for nearly thirty nights wouldn`t it.
And does that £850 take account of all the costs? Time taken in sorting out the mess, and any reputational losses if an innocent haulier gets the load nicked more than once?
I think you’re living in cloud cuckoo land, Franglais! Sorry to say.
Your notion that the police would be even slightly interested in putting down their doughnuts and investigating some crime in progress is… sweet. But here’s the reality of what actually happens (a thread from just 2 days ago). The police could not be less interested in preventing or even solving crimes if they tried. A fully insured vehicle and load on private land being emptied by some scrotes would not even cause them to raise an eyebrow. Let the insurance deal with it. Civil matter, sir.
A security guard doing a walk round or drive by would not change a thing as most of the thefts are being done by the drivers themselves. Think about it : if you’ve got a load on which has some Ebay or Gumtree value then a couple of phone calls to your mates to bring down their ■■■■■■ van isn’t going to be difficult to arrange is it. 6 o’clock next day : “yeah boss, been done over through the night, the lot’s gone. No boss, never heard a thing, heavy sleeper me.” Company just fills in the insurance forms and everything carries on as normal.
That was an interesting link to Pistonheads! Some of the responses from those of a more liberal persuasion are enough to make me want to put them to sleep. Don’t do this, don’t do that, you’ll get into trouble…the good suggestions were something along the lines of I THINK I SAW a knife, guaranteed to get a fast response from even the Mets’ finest. Ask me how I know…tell them you’re going round there mob handed to handle the situation yourself, no threats of violence mind…ask me how I know…beat the ■■■■ out of a proper scrote, known to the boys in blue and deny all knowledge when they said scrote has turned to the fuzz for assistance and they turn up at your door pronto as a small rounders bat was allegedly used…quick 5 minute interview of fine upstanding citizen is likely to follow but as he’s obviously innocent no further action. The last time, 2014, it cost me a monkey, a bender and some community service and it was worth it! And I’m not a big tough guy but press my buttons and game on!
Edit to add, I’d really prefer the authorities to deal effectively with scum but almost 60 years of watching them in action is less than reassuring and it ain’t getting better. The biker involved in that thread pondered whether it was worth having nice shiny new things and my answer would be probably not. I’ve bought one new car in my life, a basic Fiesta in 1989. You’d have thought it was a Roller attracting the envy of the unwashed judging by the amount of mindless vandalism it endured. I’ve never bought a new car since as I’ve always had to park it on the road. Never spent more than £900 on a car since so it could reasonably be argued this low level crime can have quite a negative impact on the economy I’d say.
I should imagine MSA owners would love to be boycotted by truck drivers, it would give them and excuse to use the lorry park for something more profitable.
However the amount of parking for HGVs in the UK is pathetic, and like so many other things where the goverment tries to get out of thier obligations by saying market forces should be the driver to improved services, but as we know that just means things get worse the solution is a political one.
It doesn’t have to be tax payers money used to build truckstops, but a change in the planning regulations so anybody who wants to build an industrial estate or distribution park must include a parking area for trucks, but of course those who build these estates would be against it and no doubt are major contributors to party funds.
muckles:
I should imagine MSA owners would love to be boycotted by truck drivers, it would give them and excuse to use the lorry park for something more profitable.
I’m not sure you’ve thought that one through too well before writing that . Find me another business that can generate £3k per site per night for effectively doing ■■■■ all and I’m all ears.
muckles:
It doesn’t have to be tax payers money used to build truckstops, but a change in the planning regulations so anybody who wants to build an industrial estate or distribution park must include a parking area for trucks, but of course those who build these estates would be against it and no doubt are major contributors to party funds.
^ Yep, that would be a good starting point for sure.
Rob K:
You’ve only got yourself to blame if you’re letting your company run you to 15 hours and leaving you no time to find suitable parking and if it’s stressing you that much leave .
robroy:
Would it not be easier just NOT to patronise these extortionate [zb] holes ■■
I know and you know that you’re going to be financially bummed just for parking a truck, receive overpriced and crap food at a discount…, and stand a bloody good chance of being turned over, so why not just park somewhere else.
You would be better off petioning the Insurance ombudsman to discourage the ridiculous insistence by some ins co.s, of HAVING to park there in order to be covered by insurance.
I aint signing any petition to help these [zb] s to gain more custom from financially stretched truck drivers, so …Sorry mate, but ‘It’s a no from me’
0
Whether you agree or not surely this is a time you truckers stuck together?? I even signed it from here in Australia (admittedly I am on Sunday night shift bored to hell ) surely you can help your fellow trucking brother
I’m all for sticking together, but why would I sign up for something I don’t agree with, and something that would only prolong the plight of my ‘‘fellow trucking brothers’’ as you put it, in being ripped off.
A series of petitions lobbying your useless local MPs would be equally as pointless, but at least more prudent than trying to appeal to a private enterprise who’s only concern is receiving 1st class payments for 3rd class facility and service.
What does it cost you to sign,this is why we get ■■■■,because you won’t stand together,so what if nothing comes of it,at least the geza is trying to do some think about it, there’s so much negertiverty on here it’s in real,if any think it would show unity with in the job,but as said on here before it will never happen,your all your own worst enemy’s well done opfor starting it good luck but your posting on the wrong forum
malcolmgbell:
What does it cost you to sign,this is why we get [zb],because you won’t stand together,so what if nothing comes of it,at least the geza is trying to do some think about it, there’s so much negertiverty on here it’s in real,if any think it would show unity with in the job,but as said on here before it will never happen,your all your own worst enemy’s well done opfor starting it good luck but your posting on the wrong forum
Costs absolutely nothing to sign, but I aint going to ‘stick together’ with something I want no part of because I don’t believe in parking on MSA s for all the reasons I’ve already layed out.
If you think that’s negativity, or me being my own worst enemy …not sure how that one works, tbh, but that’s your opinion.
On the other hand I would sign a petition to reduce drivers hours, or to get proper designated parking facilities provided, or decent pay structures in the industry, or any other thing I agreed with…that’s how it works.
The last time, 2014, it cost me a monkey, a bender and some community service and it was worth it! And I’m not a big tough guy but press my buttons and game on!
