Overtime counts for holiday pay calculations

scotstrucker:
Our lot maybe pay crap but take a weeks hols and get paid for 55 hours, go on the sick and they pay ssp+40 quid above that

Surely it’s not “55 hours pay” it’ll be the “crap basic”?
If I were on 1p per hour and my boss told me “Hey bud, we pay you 1,000 hours when you take a week off on holiday!” I’m not going to be getting very exicited somehow…

SSP+£40 is worse than benefits as well. You’d be better off not getting paid at all by the firm, and pretending to the tax man you are on holiday unpaid for whatever… (You’ll be doing this, by not saying anything at all…)
Claim a week’s SSP, and you’ve lost your employer’s pension contribution that week, the tax relief on your own pension contribution, any tax rebate you would otherwise get, anything you’d get for “working more than 16 & then 30 hours”, and of course you’ll lose credibility with the employer as well. They’ll keep the records forever, and won’t take long to build up a list of who’s reliable, and who’s not…

trubster:
Now they need to rule on other “Allowances”, maybe ban them and combine a wage.

It is crazy how companies such as stobrats get away with paying holidays at “Basic £7.20”, leaving you well out of pocket when you look at a normal wage

They don’t pay me £7.20 p.h ,and as for well out of pocket the meal allowance is £15, f/b is £5 and they pay £14 per day holiday allowance ,so your actually £30 p.w worse of when on holiday than at work :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation:
£30 WELL out of pocket :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation:
Oh hang on this thread seems to be just another underhand way of having a pop at stobarts ,so yES your well out of pocket
Zb me reading this crap,me and the mrs shouldn’t of been in Tenerife for 2 weeks on holiday this year,we should of been stood outside the local train station rattling a bucket ,hoping to get enough change for a happy meal

rob22888:

trubster:
Now they need to rule on other “Allowances”, maybe ban them and combine a wage.

It is crazy how companies such as stobrats get away with paying holidays at “Basic £7.20”, leaving you well out of pocket when you look at a normal wage

I agree it’s criminal. The ‘meal allowance’ at Stobarts as well is nothing but a fiddle, anybody can see that a firm paying £15 a day or £75 a week (correct me if I am wrong) in meal allowances to a day worker is excessive.

Holidays should be paid at your average rate of actual pay.

I usually earn a bit more on my weeks off because I get a Sunday shift in the week before (double rate) to nudge the average up a bit :sunglasses:

What ,stobarts pay one of the better meal allowances available to truck drivers ,and you think it’s criminal,a fiddle :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :unamused: :unamused: ,I’ll put my hands over my ears before you give me your views on the companies who pay nothing or £2 per day ,unbelievable

Winseer:
At present, an agency driver might be paid minimum wage plus a load of allowances - like Stobarts.
To benefit from any “improved holiday pay” therefore, the headline hourly rate as printed on wage slips would have to increase dramatically, and the gross pay must NOT be made up of a load of “tax free” allowances which also end up being “holiday free” (hence why it’s popular with the agency as employer)

Eg. Earn 5-day-tramp £600 gross made up from 50 hours @ £7.20ph (£360) 5x£28 night out money (£140) £10 a day in meal allowances (£50) plus £10 a day fuel expenses (£50) might mean only £360 of your wage is assessable for tax purposes - BUT only £360 of your wage is assessable for holiday purposes as well…

Wouldn’t we all like to be actually salaried on £600pw so we get paid that on holiday as well, and don’t find ourselves working more than the “national salaried average” of 39.5 hour weeks for that money? :slight_smile:

Were on the minium wage ( stobarts ) with a few allowances now ,zb he’ll the mrs is living well beyond her means then ,only a matter of time before the bailiffs comming calling .

dozy:

rob22888:

trubster:
Now they need to rule on other “Allowances”, maybe ban them and combine a wage.

It is crazy how companies such as stobrats get away with paying holidays at “Basic £7.20”, leaving you well out of pocket when you look at a normal wage

I agree it’s criminal. The ‘meal allowance’ at Stobarts as well is nothing but a fiddle, anybody can see that a firm paying £15 a day or £75 a week (correct me if I am wrong) in meal allowances to a day worker is excessive.

Holidays should be paid at your average rate of actual pay.

I usually earn a bit more on my weeks off because I get a Sunday shift in the week before (double rate) to nudge the average up a bit :sunglasses:

What ,stobarts pay one of the better meal allowances available to truck drivers ,and you think it’s criminal,a fiddle :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :unamused: :unamused: ,I’ll put my hands over my ears before you give me your views on the companies who pay nothing or £2 per day ,unbelievable

Is it true that stobarts pay that much meal allowance because you’re not allowed gas stoves in your cabs? 2 drivers who used to work for us have been at stobarts about 5 year and said that’s the reason you get £15 because you have to eat out more and can’t cook in the cab? Just going on what I’ve been told by 2 stobart drivers.

EAT Decision in Bear Scotland v Fulton and others — Holiday Pay Claims

So, what does it really means for workers?

Point One — workers should receive (and should have received in the past) all elements of ‘normal pay’ when taking holiday. ‘Normal pay’ is that which is normally received and which is intrinsically or directly linked to tasks which a worker is required to carry out (with emphasis on the last 4 words). This will include shift allowance, commission, productivity allowance, performance based payments, taxable travelling time payments (known as Radius Allowance and Travelling Time Payment), bonuses and overtime, guaranteed and non-guaranteed, on-call allowances and weekend working premia. Expenses, occasional and ancillary costs payments should not be included.

Point Two — to enforce pay, a worker can bring a claim of unlawful deductions (section 13 of the Employment Rights Act 1996) and/or a failure to pay (Regulation 30 of the Working Time Regulations 1998). A claim for unlawful deductions needs to started in an ET within 3 calendar months (less one day) of the deduction from wages (the underpayment of holiday pay) or the last of a series of deductions being made (unless it was not ‘reasonably practicable’ [in the legal sense] to do so — in which case there may be an extension for no more than a reasonable time thereafter). The EAT has decided that any gap in a series of more than 3 months will extinguish a claim based on the original (broken) series.

Point Three — the right applies only to the minimum 4 weeks WTR statutory right to leave (and not to the Regulation 13A WTR 1.6 weeks ‘additional annual leave’) and it is the employer’s right to decide which holiday the worker takes — the minimum 4 weeks or the additional annual leave of 1.6 weeks — but that the additional annual leave ‘should be the last to be agreed upon during the course of a leave year’. In reality this could well mean that most workers, who work a January to December holiday year, may have taken all their minimum 4 weeks annual leave by the summer!

Practical considerations
For the future, it seems likely that employers will have to bite the bullet and move to an inclusive system for paying holiday pay. These decisions are likely to be appealed — but we think that Point One is unlikely to fall following an appeal. The EAT’s decision is terrifically robust, intellectually rigorous and consistent with the whole of the recent direction of travel of the European jurisprudence.

The EAT’s decision on the “series of deductions point” is more troublesome.

It creates major hurdles for backpay claims.

We’re not persuaded by the Judge’s reasoning, and we anticipate an appeal. But by the time the appeal is heard, it will almost certainly be too late to lodge claims for extensive backpay (assuming that employers, as we predict, get their act together following this decision and start to pay properly). Of course the difficulty is: can one justify an enormous spend on ET issue fees to get claims for backpay (say, to 1998) off the ground now — a spend that would be wholly speculative since there’s no guarantee appeals will succeed? Probably not, we imagine.

Employees may have claims for backpay even on the basis of this decision as it stands — but they must act quickly, and the value of these claims might be very limited. If it’s more than 3 months since a worker’s last holiday, Point Two will defeat any claim for backpay. And Point Three is important here, too — we are only concerned with the first 4 weeks of the holiday taken in a holiday year — and that includes bank holidays (e.g. Easter). So even a holiday taken in the last 3 months won’t necessarily qualify for a claim — it would need to be a holiday relating to the first 4 weeks of your leave.

And, looking further back, if there’s a gap of more than 3 months between the last of your “first 4 weeks” in a holiday year, and the first holiday taken in the next holiday year, the “series” will be broken and again any claim for the older back pay will fail.

We suspect that the most worthwhile claims will be those where individuals have taken regular holidays on a “little and often” basis, spread throughout the holiday year — but realistically how many of those will there be?

As a minimum it will be important to establish, as soon as possible, the dates of ALL holidays taken over, say, the last 2 — 3 years. A view can then be taken about whether a viable backpay claim exists.

A negotiated approach with larger employers might prove most cost-effective — but the limitation clock is ticking, so time if of the essence — especially once employers start to factor in “normal” wages when calculating holiday pay.

copied from an e’mail sent by lawyers this AM

I think that this is a judgment from the European Court of Justice. Good job we’re in the EU!

Thread Resurrection!!!

So what’s the latest score with this?
As it seems to me that agencies with PAYE drivers are still paying only basic hours for holiday pay?

From Nov 2015

telegraph.co.uk/business/sme … ay-advice/

“Looking at overtime, the EAT guidance is quite clear and is as follows: when calculating holiday pay, employers should include normal non-guaranteed overtime. This is overtime which is not contractually guaranteed, but which the employee is obliged to work if it is offered or required by the employer.”

5 Oct 2015

Or

gov.uk/government/news/gove … pay-ruling

“The government has today (18 December 2014) taken action to reduce potential costs to employers and give certainty to workers on their rights following the recent court decisions on holiday pay.
Last month the Employment Appeal Tribunal ruled that holiday pay should reflect non-guaranteed overtime.
The government recognises the decision of the court and is today taking action to protect UK business from the potentially damaging impact of large backdated claims. Changes made to regulations under the Employment Rights Act 1996 will mean that claims to Employment Tribunals on this issue cannot stretch back further than 2 years.
Workers can still make claims under the existing arrangements for the next 6 months which will act as a transition period before the new rules come into force. The changes apply to claims made on or after 1 July 2015.
Following the recent Employment Appeal Tribunal ruling, government set up a taskforce of representatives from government and business to assess the financial exposure employers face and how to limit the impact on businesses.
Employers and workers can also visit Acas for the latest free Acas advice on holiday pay.
Notes to editors:
The judge in the recent UK Employment Appeal Tribunal case of Bear Scotland versus Fulton ruled that holiday pay should include non-guaranteed overtime.
Non-guaranteed overtime means overtime that employers are not obliged to offer but a worker has to work if it is offered.
Regulations to limit claims for unlawful deductions from wages to 2 years have been laid today (18 December 2014). The rules apply to Employment Tribunal claims made on or after 1 July 2015. Claims made before this time follow current rules.
The taskforce is considering the impacts on business. While the government discussed these changes with the taskforce, they do not represent a direct output of the taskforce’s work. The taskforce continues to work through the implications. The business representative groups on the taskforce are:
Confederation of British Industry (CBI)
EEF, the manufacturers Organisation
Federation of Small Businesses (FSB)
Institute of Directors (IoD)
British Chambers of Commerce (BCC)
British Retail Consortium (BRC)
Civil Engineering Contractors Association (CECA)
GC100 - General Counsel and Company Secretaries working in FTSE 100 companies
The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) chairs the group. Relevant government departments also attend. BIS is also engaging with a wide range of interested parties.
Employers and workers can also get free advice and support from the Acas Helpline Online”

Our place has already started last year to pay holiday pack pay and sort out paying holiday to include overtime over the last 12 weeks before you take your holiday.
So people have had decent payouts others got diddly squat.
Sadly they paid a number of employees 40 days instead of 40 hours in the first couple of average holiday pay weeks where people had taken holidays this year. So now they have to sort the mess out and get that overpaid money back. This has now been ongoing for 14-15 weeks and they still can’t sort it out. So they have suspended all average holiday pay until they do.
So generally people have been overpaid and everyone now is being underpaid when taking holiday.
It’s a right mess at our place at the moment.
All allegedly because of a coding issue in the way they work out how to pay it.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

I work for a large supermarket RDC and they have agreed to pay all our holiday entitlement on a 12 week average all 31 days , I think the law says just 20 must be paid.if any one goes sick although we get paid our average would drop due to no overtime and bonases therefore these sickness weeks are struck off and the average taken back to 12 weeks with full attendance overtime and bonases included

The calculation is on hours worked not contracted hours, my place calculate the average for the 16 weeks before the holiday is booked.

You average 12 hours a day paid then thats what you should get as a holiday, simple.