over 15 hours?

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
81

Thanks Neil and I still enjoyed it :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

82

ROG:
Thanks Neil and I still enjoyed it :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

So did I. :stuck_out_tongue:

83

ROG put your guns in the ground
You can’t shoot them anymore
That cold black cloud is comin’ down
Feels like you’re knockin’ on VOSA’s door

:wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

Anyone who doesn’t know the history will be completely baffled by that. :smiley:

84

Coffeeholic:
ROG put your guns in the ground
You can’t shoot them anymore
That cold black cloud is comin’ down
Feels like you’re knockin’ on VOSA’s door

:wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

Anyone who doesn’t know the history will be completely baffled by that. :smiley:

I never started to clean them…
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

85

What has not yet been considered is the implication of Article 4, which provides the definition of “other work” thus,

(e) ‘other work’ means all activities which are defined as
working time in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC
except ‘driving’, including any work for the same or
another employer, within or outside of the transport
sector;

And to understand the meaning of that requires a look at Directive 2002/15/EC., which states,

Definitions

For the purposes of this Directive:
a. ‘working time’ shall mean:

  1. in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning to the end of work, during which the mobile worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the employer and exercising his functions or activities, that is to say:
    the time devoted to all road transport activities.
    (and continues with examples)………….

Which when considered in the light of Article 8 3820/85

  1. Where a driver chooses to do this, daily rest periods and
    reduced weekly rest periods away from base may be taken in a
    vehicle, as long as it has suitable sleeping facilities for each
    driver and the vehicle is stationary.

In no way places a requirement upon the driver to remain with the vehicle, near the vehicle, or even in the same Country as the vehicle and, arguably does not preclude the vehicle being used by someone else during the time the daily or weekly rest is being taken.

The relevant question concerning the matter under discussion is whether or not the mobile worker is at the disposal of the employer?

In the scenarios exampled, whilst the employee has an obligation to be in a position to commence work at a stipulated time, when and how he achieves that objective is outside of the scope of being ‘at the disposal of the employer’ and any such journey would not constitute, with regard to the employer, ‘exercising his functions or activities’ because the employer has no input or control over the employee as to how that objective is achieved.

Which differs from the Skills Coaches case where drivers were being ‘bussed’ to an alternative location in order to commence work and were most definitely ‘at the disposal of the employer’.

86

Krankee:
The relevant question concerning the matter under discussion is whether or not the mobile worker is at the disposal of the employer?

The relevant question concerning the matter under discussion is simply one of sufficient rest. Being at the disposal of the employer or not isn’t relevant in a case where the driver has completed 15 hours duty. On completion of 15 hours duty the driver must immediately start a rest period, otherwise they will not have sufficient rest in the 24 hour period.

If the driver commences a rest period then they can dispose of their time as they see fit during that period. However, by returning to base the driver doesn’t immediately commence a rest period, because returning to base cannot be counted as rest due to Article 9. Therefore, the driver commits an offence of insufficient daily rest due to being on duty for more than 15 hours.

That’s it in a nutshell as far as this thread is concerned and all the other stuff such as being at the disposal of the employer, method of getting where the driver wants to be, etc, only serve to mask the simple issue of the amount of rest required - minimum of 9 hours in 24 as clearly defined in the regulations - and what is or is not rest - Article 9 is very clear on that subject in regards to this discussion.

87

scotslad:
Now if a driver gets to his maximum hours on a friday and is an hour from home and an hour from the yard are you trying to tell me he must be weekended there? sorry but thats nonsense

No, he doesn’t have to be weekended. He can leave the wagon there for the weekend and go back to it at the same place when he’s had the required break. What he can’t legally do is leave the wagon there, go home, let his boss recover the wagon, and then start his next shift back at the yard after having taken his required rest period.

It’s nonsense, yes. It’s also the law. A lot of laws are nonsense, but the fact that a law is nonsense doesn’t mean you’ll get away with ignoring it, even if you have had a CPC since Noah was a boy.

Paul

88

The original post was a simple question about what happens when a driver completes 15 hours duty but this whole thread is a classic example of the Driver’s Hours Regulations and why drivers seem to find it so difficult to grasp them.

The answer to the original question is that on completion of 15 hours duty the regulations clearly show a rest period must commence immediately, so the driver cannot be collected because the regulations also clearly show the time spent travelling after being collected is not rest. That’s the question answered in a couple of lines but instead of the simple answer loads of extra, irrelevant details were added, not mentioning any names ROG, :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: which just lead to confusion and is how myths and MMTM scenarios start. :wink: :smiley:

89

Coffeeholic:
That’s the question answered in a couple of lines but instead of the simple answer loads of extra, irrelevant details were added, not mentioning any names ROG, :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: which just lead to confusion and is how myths and MMTM scenarios start. :wink: :smiley:

But it must have covered just about every idea of a ‘get out’ there is…

… at least, I can’t think of any more…

… YET :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

90

this threads getting too complicated for me.

though what about this scenario

driver gets to services at 15 hours, texts boss to tell him trucks parked up at services but that truck is needed for the weekend and that person wont be using that truck til monday, what happens here?

91

gogzy:
this threads getting too complicated for me.

though what about this scenario

driver gets to services at 15 hours, texts boss to tell him trucks parked up at services but that truck is needed for the weekend and that person wont be using that truck til monday, what happens here?

Take your pick.

  1. Company use a different truck for the weekend as that one is not available due to it not returning to the depot because of the driver running out of hours.

  2. Company put the driver into the Travel Lodge on the services (other hotels are available) and use the truck at the weekend, then return it to the services so the driver can resume work on Monday.

  3. Driver lives very close so commences his weekly rest when he finishes his shift at the services. He then goes home and the company retrieve the truck so they can use it over the weekend. The company return the truck to the services in time for the driver to return there to resume work after his weekly rest period.

Note: The above are all solutions which comply with the regulations and keep both the driver and operator legal. The real world solution may differ slightly :wink:

92

driver gets to services at 15 hours, texts boss to tell him trucks parked up at services but that truck is needed for the weekend and that person wont be using that truck til monday, what happens here?

Coffeeholic:
3. Driver lives very close so commences his weekly rest when he finishes his shift at the services. He then goes home and the company retrieve the truck so they can use it over the weekend. The company return the truck to the services in time for the driver to return there to resume work after his weekly rest period.

Is there anyone who agrees that the regs are sensible on this point :question:

93

can of worms?? :smiley:
thanks for the replys.

  1. so 15 hours are up truck gets parked stays where it is ,driver can go home but truck must not move until its collected by the same driver the next day?.
    2.even if its the weekend/end of driver weekly shift(truck will sit there for 2/3 days)?
    3.if you taxi it home and you claim it back through your company could that taxi be classed as a company vehicle?
    thanks Si
94

Night Owl:
can of worms?? :smiley:
thanks for the replys.

  1. so 15 hours are up truck gets parked stays where it is ,driver can go home but truck must not move until its collected by the same driver the next day?.
    2.even if its the weekend/end of driver weekly shift(truck will sit there for 2/3 days)?
    3.if you taxi it home and you claim it back through your company could that taxi be classed as a company vehicle?
    thanks Si

YES to all - Thats about it mate.

Did make for a good 4 pages of discussion though :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

EDIT - sorry, missed those bits :blush: :blush:

Must wake up before posting :exclamation: :exclamation:

95

ROG:

Night Owl:
can of worms?? :smiley:
thanks for the replys.

  1. so 15 hours are up truck gets parked stays where it is ,driver can go home but truck must not move until its collected by the same driver the next day?.
    2.even if its the weekend/end of driver weekly shift(truck will sit there for 2/3 days)?
    3.if you taxi it home and you claim it back through your company could that taxi be classed as a company vehicle?
    thanks Si

YES to all

Or not yes to all. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

Night Owl:

  1. so 15 hours are up truck gets parked stays where it is ,driver can go home but truck must not move until its collected by the same driver the next day?.

It can move if the company want to use it, they’ll just have to return it, or another vehicle, for the driver to resume work from that place. Or even collect the driver in a car or van when he resumes work.

Night Owl:
2.even if its the weekend/end of driver weekly shift(truck will sit there for 2/3 days)?

Same as above.

Night Owl:
3.if you taxi it home and you claim it back through your company could that taxi be classed as a company vehicle?

Your choice to go home during your rest period so doubt the company would pay it, especially if you are doing a dodgy night out. :wink:

96

Coffeeholic:

gogzy:
this threads getting too complicated for me.

though what about this scenario

driver gets to services at 15 hours, texts boss to tell him trucks parked up at services but that truck is needed for the weekend and that person wont be using that truck til monday, what happens here?

Take your pick.

  1. Company use a different truck for the weekend as that one is not available due to it not returning to the depot because of the driver running out of hours.

  2. Company put the driver into the Travel Lodge on the services (other hotels are available) and use the truck at the weekend, then return it to the services so the driver can resume work on Monday.

  3. Driver lives very close so commences his weekly rest when he finishes his shift at the services. He then goes home and the company retrieve the truck so they can use it over the weekend. The company return the truck to the services in time for the driver to return there to resume work after his weekly rest period.

Note: The above are all solutions which comply with the regulations and keep both the driver and operator legal. The real world solution may differ slightly :wink:

hmm too much for my head to take in, i dont think ill ever have that problem tbh anyway.not like im working right now.

97

repton:

scotslad:
Now if a driver gets to his maximum hours on a friday and is an hour from home and an hour from the yard are you trying to tell me he must be weekended there? sorry but thats nonsense

No, he doesn’t have to be weekended. He can leave the wagon there for the weekend and go back to it at the same place when he’s had the required break. What he can’t legally do is leave the wagon there, go home, let his boss recover the wagon, and then start his next shift back at the yard after having taken his required rest period.

It’s nonsense, yes. It’s also the law. A lot of laws are nonsense, but the fact that a law is nonsense doesn’t mean you’ll get away with ignoring it, even if you have had a CPC since Noah was a boy.

Paul

So where is the law that says that? Whos to say the driver will have the same vehicle on the monday. I didnt say the law was nonsense i said the comments on here are nonsense

98

scotslad:
So where is the law that says that? Whos to say the driver will have the same vehicle on the monday. I didnt say the law was nonsense i said the comments on here are nonsense

Coffeeholic:
It can move if the company want to use it, they’ll just have to return it, or another vehicle, for the driver to resume work from that place. Or even collect the driver in a car or van when he resumes work.

99

ROG:

scotslad:
So where is the law that says that? Whos to say the driver will have the same vehicle on the monday. I didnt say the law was nonsense i said the comments on here are nonsense

Coffeeholic:
It can move if the company want to use it, they’ll just have to return it, or another vehicle, for the driver to resume work from that place. Or even collect the driver in a car or van when he resumes work.

Where is the law that says the diver must start where he finished?

100

scotslad:
So where is the law that says that? Whos to say the driver will have the same vehicle on the monday. I didnt say the law was nonsense i said the comments on here are nonsense

It’s all in this thread, specifically in Coffeeholic’s posts where he quotes and explains the relevant laws, there’s no point me going over it again as it’s already threre. The law is quite clear, the comments on this thread from people such as myself and Coffeeholic might sound like nonsense but that’s because we’re correctly interpreting a nonsense law. You might not have said the law is nonsense but I am, because in my view it is. As I said before though that doesn’t mean you are allowed to ignore it.

Paul