over 15 hours?

coffeeholic · 30 November 2008 13:35

tachograph:

Coffeeholic:
~snip~

Thanks for that

I think you may have been having a senior moment Tacho mate. A little search of this forum using your name and Article 9 shows the number of times you have actually quoted Article 9 to answer this very question.

wheel_nut · 30 November 2008 13:40

Just a snippet taken from the Skills case.

A driver who goes to a specific place, other than the undertaking’s operating centre, indicated to him by his employer in order to take over and drive a vehicle is satisfying an obligation towards his employer. During that journey, therefore, he does not freely dispose of his time.

When you take a job on, any job you will consider how much it is going to cost you to get to work, how long it will take you etc. If you work somewhere that is 5 hours drive away, more fool you

As Coffee mentioned earlier, the regulations are there for our protection. Suppose your boss in Nottingham said to you, can you be in London at 7am on Monday morning.

Yes Boss yes Siree, beg grovel

Good, because there is a truck parked outside Sainsbugsco, keys are on the bumper, tip that and dont be late.

If he pays you for your travelling time, all well and good if not would you still go?

Either way, your duty time starts when you walk onto the road and stick your thumb out

limeyphil · 30 November 2008 13:47

tachograph:

limeyphil:
Here’s a scenario.

Driver runs out of time 30 minutes from home and should take a minimum 24 hour rest.
The rest period is when the driver is free to dispose of his/her time.

Well i would dispose of my time by.
Driving my lorry home.

like i said my lorry is not a prison.

let us know how you get on in court

i’ve never lost yet.
But courts are just a big game.
There’s always one law saying you CAN’T do this and then there’s always another saying yes you CAN do that.
The game is this. Whoever finds the law saying yes you CAN do that, Then he’s the winner.

tachograph · 30 November 2008 14:00

limeyphil:

tachograph:

limeyphil:
Here’s a scenario.

Driver runs out of time 30 minutes from home and should take a minimum 24 hour rest.
The rest period is when the driver is free to dispose of his/her time.

Well i would dispose of my time by.
Driving my lorry home.

like i said my lorry is not a prison.

let us know how you get on in court

i’ve never lost yet.
But courts are just a big game.
There’s always one law saying you CAN’T do this and then there’s always another saying yes you CAN do that.
The game is this. Whoever finds the law saying yes you CAN do that, Then he’s the winner.

Sure but could you find a law that says you can drive a vehicle during your daily or weekly rest period, or when you’ve run out of driving hours, when that vehicle is over 7.5 tonnes and the driver and the vehicles come within the scope of EU regulations

rog · 30 November 2008 14:03

Coffeeholic:
Article 9 - REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006

===================================================
Article 9

By way of derogation from Article 8, where a driver
accompanies a vehicle which is transported by ferry or train,
and takes a regular daily rest period, that period may be
interrupted not more than twice by other activities not
exceeding one hour in total. During that regular daily rest
period the driver shall have access to a bunk or couchette.
Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return
from that location, when the vehicle is neither at the driver’s
home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the
driver is normally based, shall not be counted as a rest or
break unless the driver is on a ferry or train and has access to a
bunk or couchette.
Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle which falls
outside the scope of this Regulation to or from a vehicle
which falls within the scope of this Regulation, which is not at
the driver’s home or at the employer’s operational centre
where the driver is normally based, shall count as other work.

===================================================

I must be really, really, REALLY thick

Cos I cannot see where it says that the driver MUST start & finish A daily rest period at the same location.

SENARIO
Driver lives just off J23 M1.
Yard near J23 M1
15 hours up at J21 M1 Leics forest east services.
Park vehicle and pay for all night parking.
Sends text to boss = Truck parked at LFE, I am hitching to yard to collect my car and will collect truck in morning from LFE.
On way to yard, whilst a passenger in nice motorists car who gave driver a lift, recieves text from boss = I am collecting your truck from LFE, it will be in the yard in the morning.

The boss did not tell the driver to go home from LFE but used the info given by the driver to take advantage of the situation.

I’m really struggling to find the part of the regulation that is broken

wheel_nut · 30 November 2008 14:25

ROG:

Coffeeholic:
Article 9 - REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006

===================================================
Article 9

By way of derogation from Article 8, where a driver
accompanies a vehicle which is transported by ferry or train,
and takes a regular daily rest period, that period may be
interrupted not more than twice by other activities not
exceeding one hour in total. During that regular daily rest
period the driver shall have access to a bunk or couchette.

Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, when the vehicle is neither at the driver’s
home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the
driver is normally based, shall not be counted as a rest or
break unless the driver is on a ferry or train and has access to a
bunk or couchette.

Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle which falls
outside the scope of this Regulation to or from a vehicle
which falls within the scope of this Regulation, which is not at
the driver’s home or at the employer’s operational centre
where the driver is normally based, shall count as other work.

===================================================

I must be really, really, REALLY thick

Cos I cannot see where it says that the driver MUST start & finish A daily rest period at the same location.

SENARIO
Driver lives just off J23 M1.
Yard near J23 M1
15 hours up at J21 M1 Leics forest east services.
Park vehicle and pay for all night parking.
Sends text to boss = Truck parked at LFE, I am hitching to yard to collect my car and will collect truck in morning from LFE.
On way to yard, whilst a passenger in nice motorists car who gave driver a lift, recieves text from boss = I am collecting your truck from LFE, it will be in the yard in the morning.

The boss did not tell the driver to go home from LFE but used the info given by the driver to take advantage of the situation.

I’m really struggling to find the part of the regulation that is broken

Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation.

or to return
from that location,

when the vehicle is neither at the driver’s
home.
nor at the employer’s operational centre where the
driver is normally based,

shall not be counted as a rest or
break

Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle which falls
outside the scope of this Regulation to or from a vehicle
which falls within the scope of this Regulation, which is not at
the driver’s home or at the employer’s operational centre
where the driver is normally based, shall count as other work.

If you as an operator or employer did this Rog, then the powers that be, at VOSA would be looking very carefully at your operation. Who collected the truck? Had he clocked on? Was he complying with the DHR?

If the original driver has written on the back of his card and in your scenario bought a parking ticket, he will not hear anymore, except maybe to be a witness for the prosecution against his boss.

tachograph · 30 November 2008 14:28

ROG:
I cannot see where it says that the driver MUST start & finish A daily rest period at the same location.

It doesn’t, but in the scenario this thread is about unless you pick up the vehicle from the same place that you left it you would be considered to be travelling home from the location where you were in charge of the vehicle, and therefore the time couldn’t be counted as rest.

If you leave the vehicle and make your own way home then go back to pick it up from the same location you would simply be freely disposing of your time as you wished and therefore on rest.

Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return
from that location
~snip~
shall not be counted as a rest or break

wheel_nut · 30 November 2008 14:37

However. It is my turn to be as pedantic as Rog

How would an employees contract of employment hold up in court?

You know the standard things that can be bought or downloaded from any internet site.

If your contract of employment contains a mobility clause, your employer may be able to change your place of work. A mobility clause may say, for example, that you may be called upon to work anywhere in the UK, or at any of your employer’s sites. If your contract does not have a mobility clause, your employer may be breaking your contract if they want to change your place of work. Even if your contract does have a mobility clause, your employer must be reasonable about asking you to change your place of work. For example, they must give you sufficient notice, and pay relocation expenses where appropriate.

So by having this written in your contract, would a normal place of work be anywhere the employer likes because of the mobility clause?

Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle which falls
outside the scope of this Regulation to or from a vehicle
which falls within the scope of this Regulation, which is not at
the driver’s home or at the employer’s operational centre
where the driver is normally based, shall count as other work.

rog · 30 November 2008 14:40

Wheel Nut:
Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation.

or to return
from that location,

when the vehicle is neither at the driver’s
home.
nor at the employer’s operational centre where the
driver is normally based,

shall not be counted as a rest or
break

Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle which falls
outside the scope of this Regulation to or from a vehicle
which falls within the scope of this Regulation, which is not at
the driver’s home or at the employer’s operational centre
where the driver is normally based, shall count as other work.

But the driver is on own time during a daily rest period and as had been said before - can do whatever the driver wants to do - in this case the driver decided to hitch in own time and inform his boss of the situation.

If conforming to the regs situation above that means that a driver is NOT allowed to dispose of time as they would like to during a daily rest period.

rog · 30 November 2008 14:47

tachograph:

ROG:
I cannot see where it says that the driver MUST start & finish A daily rest period at the same location.

It doesn’t, but in the scenario this thread is about unless you pick up the vehicle from the same place that you left it you would be considered to be travelling home from the location where you were in charge of the vehicle, and therefore the time couldn’t be counted as rest.

If you leave the vehicle and make your own way home then go back to pick it up from the same location you would simply be freely disposing of your time as you wished and therefore on rest.

Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return
from that location
~snip~
shall not be counted as a rest or break

So the boss in my senario is actually breaking the law in retrieving the truck from the services

If the driver in my senario was an agency driver who was working for company A when the truck was parked at the sevices, finished shift, hitched to yard where car was parked and then went to work for company B 9 hours after parking it, would that still be illegal as they have signed off and are no longer working for company A

wheel_nut · 30 November 2008 14:54

ROG:

Wheel Nut:
Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation.

or to return
from that location,

when the vehicle is neither at the driver’s
home.
nor at the employer’s operational centre where the
driver is normally based,

shall not be counted as a rest or
break

Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle which falls
outside the scope of this Regulation to or from a vehicle
which falls within the scope of this Regulation, which is not at
the driver’s home or at the employer’s operational centre
where the driver is normally based, shall count as other work.

But the driver is on own time during a daily rest period and as had been said before - can do whatever the driver wants to do - in this case the driver decided to hitch in own time and inform his boss of the situation.

If conforming to the regs situation above that means that a driver is NOT allowed to dispose of time as they would like to during a daily rest period.

Then in that case both driver and employer would end up in court, but if the driver explains that he parked at Leicester Forest with all intention of a fiddle home, and wrote it on his card that his boss had nicked his truck, he would go free and the boss would have to answer the charges.

Most drivers over 40 will have had at least 3 “fiddles” a week but normally the load and the lorry were still in the same place in the morning

It didnt appeal to me as I was single and didnt like getting up early to get back to the cafe.

tachograph · 30 November 2008 15:00

ROG:

tachograph:

ROG:
I cannot see where it says that the driver MUST start & finish A daily rest period at the same location.

It doesn’t, but in the scenario this thread is about unless you pick up the vehicle from the same place that you left it you would be considered to be travelling home from the location where you were in charge of the vehicle, and therefore the time couldn’t be counted as rest.

If you leave the vehicle and make your own way home then go back to pick it up from the same location you would simply be freely disposing of your time as you wished and therefore on rest.

Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return
from that location
~snip~
shall not be counted as a rest or break

So the boss in my senario is actually breaking the law in retrieving the truck from the services

The boss would be preventing the driver from complying with the regulations, he/she would also probably be failing to ensure that the driver was aware of the regulations.

If the driver in my senario was an agency driver who was working for company A when the truck was parked at the sevices, finished shift, hitched to yard where car was parked and then went to work for company B 9 hours after parking it, would that still be illegal as they have signed off and are no longer working for company A

Returning from the location of the vehicle cannot be counted as rest, so I would say that situation would mean that the driver hadn’t had the required daily rest.

rog · 30 November 2008 15:19

I think I’ve now got this…

If an agency driver parked at services, hitched to the yard, drove own car home and was not now being paid by the company because their contract with that company ended when they parked up - they must return to the truck which must still be at the services to do what■■? - they cannot drive it as they are now no longer insured to… or is the company bound by law to retain that agency driver for another day

allikat · 30 November 2008 16:23

Ok, on a tangent, so a wagon over 7.5t can’t be for personaly use? So if i get an old F10 wendy house to drive around in for fun, i can’t do that on my breaks?

scotslad · 30 November 2008 16:47

repton:

scotslad:
Exactly… Travelling between home and a location that is not your employer o/c. Not between a location and home. When you finish your shift you are free to do whatever you want with that time

Read the quote Simon posted. It says TO or FROM. The rule applies in both directions.

Paul

To take charge of a vehicle is counted as work not going home from the vehicle. I have had national/international cpc for twenty odd years and worked with tacho charts and the law longer. The only thing you have to make sure you do is count the time when you leave home to take charge of the vehicle as your start time. Now if a driver gets to his maximum hours on a friday and is an hour from home and an hour from the yard are you trying to tell me he must be weekended there? sorry but thats nonsense

wheel_nut · 30 November 2008 16:59

allikat:
Ok, on a tangent, so a wagon over 7.5t can’t be for personaly use? So if i get an old F10 wendy house to drive around in for fun, i can’t do that on my breaks?

Yes. as long as you are not going to drive it to collect an inscope vehicle that is parked either not at your home or not at your normal place of work

wheel_nut · 30 November 2008 17:08

scotslad:

repton:

scotslad:
Exactly… Travelling between home and a location that is not your employer o/c. Not between a location and home. When you finish your shift you are free to do whatever you want with that time

Read the quote Simon posted. It says TO or FROM. The rule applies in both directions.

Paul

To take charge of a vehicle is counted as work not going home from the vehicle. I have had national/international cpc for twenty odd years and worked with tacho charts and the law longer. The only thing you have to make sure you do is count the time when you leave home to take charge of the vehicle as your start time. Now if a driver gets to his maximum hours on a friday and is an hour from home and an hour from the yard are you trying to tell me he must be weekended there? sorry but thats nonsense

He can leave the truck where it is, get a lift home with anyone, and go back for it on Monday.

Of course no-one would sail so close to the wind would they?

That is why they give a driver the choice of 2 extended driving periods and 3 reduced breaks so this doesn’t happen.

rog · 30 November 2008 17:53

I enjoyed this post

wheel_nut · 30 November 2008 17:55

ROG:
I enjoyed this post

It kept me out of the pub, and into the divorce courts so a good day was had by all

“Your Mother will be more pleased to see you if we go another day, next year perhaps”

coffeeholic · 30 November 2008 17:59

ROG:
I must be really, really, REALLY thick

That’s too easy so I’m resisting the temptation to go there.

ROG:
Cos I cannot see where it says that the driver MUST start & finish A daily rest period at the same location.

It doesn’t actually say those words but what it does say prevents that from happening, when a driver has no more duty time left for the shift.

ROG:
SENARIO
Driver lives just off J23 M1.
Yard near J23 M1
15 hours up at J21 M1 Leics forest east services.
Park vehicle and pay for all night parking.
Sends text to boss = Truck parked at LFE, I am hitching to yard to collect my car and will collect truck in morning from LFE.

That is fine, he is on rest so can dispose of his time as he sees fit

ROG:
On way to yard, whilst a passenger in nice motorists car who gave driver a lift, recieves text from boss = I am collecting your truck from LFE, it will be in the yard in the morning.

The boss now needs a slap as his actions are making it impossible, because of Article 9, to complete a legal rest period. The driver has now exceeded his 15-hour allowed duty time and can no longer complete a daily rest period in the required time. Due to the fact he will not be returning to the place when he finished his shift to resume work, the time spent travelling from there has to be counted as other work. Article 9 couldn’t be any clearer on that point.

ROG:
The boss did not tell the driver to go home from LFE but used the info given by the driver to take advantage of the situation.

Two things. 1, Driver should have kept his mouth shut, gone home and booked the night out and claimed the night out money. 2. Boss should know the regulations and realise he cannot take advantage of the situation and allow his driver to comply with the regulations. As he will not be returning to the place when he finished his shift the time spent travelling from there has to be counted as other work, Article 9 couldn’t be any clearer on that point.

ROG:
I’m really struggling to find the part of the regulation that is broken

Once again it is this part, Article 9 - REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006

ROG:
But the driver is on own time during a daily rest period and as had been said before - can do whatever the driver wants to do.

Yes, but in the scenario you paint the travelling time isn’t rest, it is other work so he is not on rest at that point so the free to dispose of his time doesn’t come into play until he does commence his rest.

ROG:
So the boss in my senario is actually breaking the law in retrieving the truck from the services

Finally you get it, it’s like a light bulb just went on above your head.

ROG:
If the driver in my senario was an agency driver who was working for company A when the truck was parked at the sevices, finished shift, hitched to yard where car was parked and then went to work for company B 9 hours after parking it, would that still be illegal as they have signed off and are no longer working for company A

Yes it would, They are working for operator A for that shift and will be deemed to still be working for them until they return to the base. Because of Article 9 the time spent travelling back to Operator A’s base will be classed as other work.

Oh, and no agency driver worth his salt would travel back to base in his own time and not get paid for it. He would be black balled and drummed out the agency driver’s union, after having his Hi-Viz cut from his shoulders…

ROG:
I think I’ve now got this…

I really hope so, but I’m not putting any money on it.

ROG:
If an agency driver parked at services, hitched to the yard, drove own car home and was not now being paid by the company because their contract with that company ended when they parked up - they must return to the truck which must still be at the services to do what■■? - they cannot drive it as they are now no longer insured to… or is the company bound by law to retain that agency driver for another day

Because of the tacho laws, they would have to. He has completed 15 hours duty and his daily rest period must therefore start immediately. He has no other option available to him therefore he will have to take the rest period and resume work. The company will have to pay the driver to complete the work they allocated him after his rest period. What the driver does during that rest period is for him and him alone to decide, but he is going to have to resume work from the same place he started his rest period otherwise, because of Article 9 his duty time will be more than 15 hours and he will be unable to complete a legal rest period.